Will human technology ever be able to defend against demonic power?

[Anathama_Sit]

Greetings Someperson555,

I don’t think that Intheclouds is an atheist. I would not be surprised to find out that He is Catholic or a Christian because of his other post in another thread that I found the other day. I believe he is asking these questions sincerely. Let us help to lead him to the Truth rather than turn him away because of a lack of understanding on our parts. I too have misunderstood as well.

I prayed that you got a good night sleep by the way.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[cornbread_r2]

Greetings Someperson555,

The reponses are ready, for some reason it will not let me copy and paste into this window, nor will it let me quote every now and then. But be assured I will answer you.

Thank you so much for your patience.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

Maybe your computer’s possessed.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Maybe your computer’s possessed.

LOL. It’s a shame that the diocesean exorcists are busy. That made me laugh. Oh the trouble I have had with this computer. I hope to get my other one soon, like at the end of the month.

 

[Just_Lurking]

would we be able to invent technologies which could stop them?

Already here. Just take a Super Soaker and fill it with holy water!

 

[cornbread_r2]

LOL. It’s a shame that the diocesean exorcists are busy. That made me laugh. Oh the trouble I have had with this computer. I hope to get my other one soon, like at the end of the month.

My brother refers to his computer as the Devil’s work station.

Seriously though, if demons can possess pigs and people, including even innocent children, why couldn’t they possess someone’s computer? Considering the work you’ve done assisting in exorcisms and your contributions here, couldn’t the tool you use to inform others of demonic issues also be a target?

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Greetings Cornbread_r2,

You know I had never ever thought about that. You see my new computer would not turn on any more and so I had to take it in to get it looked at. And then this computer works somewhat well for email and things. But at times it really acts up with CAF. It really tries my patience, I like what your brother calls his.

I would put holy water on it, but I don’t want to ruin the computer itself.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[1AugustSon7]

My brother refers to his computer as the Devil’s work station.

Seriously though, if demons can possess pigs and people, including even innocent children, why couldn’t they possess someone’s computer? Considering the work you’ve done assisting in exorcisms and your contributions here, couldn’t the tool you use to inform others of demonic issues also be a target?

Yes even objects can become possessed e.g., in the negative, a haunted house; in the positive, a holy house.

Holy or blessed objects (e.g. sacramentals) are of course possessed by Christ. They have a spiritual belonging to Christ. Hence to sell, defile, destroy or liquidate them is a form of sacrilege.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

we gave you plenty of evidence. the problem here is that youre an atheist thus your premise is flawed to begin with. trying to convince an atheist that demonic posession is real is like trying to convince an african wicth doctor that fevers cannot be cured by dancing around a fire.

That could be demonstrated. But some of the medical ceremonies in tribal groups also have some other value to the community (sometimes religious) or to the Dr (maintaining a position of status, power, or control). One might have more success convincing the Dr. to mix a special powder in a drink (like Ibuprofin) and have the patient drink it as he does his dance. I don’t think we need to reach for what I think are distant cultures for most of us to see something like this. There are groups within western cultures that refuse medical treatments in favour of some other method (some holistic medicine techniques, religious ceremonies, and so on). Convincing them can be hard too. Sometimes (but not always) you can convince some one to try a treatment if you encourage them to engage it with their own methods (provided those methods are innocuous or don’t otherwise interact with the medication).

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

dont worry, this question isnt as stupid as it seems lol. so we all know that demons/ angels are immaterial beings, however they can still move and manipulate matter in some ways. so there must be a way they do it, it would just be up to us to figure out how. for example, ive heard stories how they can throw an object accross the room, we know that they do this by somehow blocking the gravitational pull on the object and then using the air to propell the object accross the room. i imagine its the same when they attack people. people have reported these attacks as “invisible fists” or “scourges”, my speculation is that they do this by manipulating the atoms of the air to form a more dense cluster of air, then they use that to somehow strike at the individual. (even though this is purely my speculation, it seems logical, doesnt it?) according to aquinas, even angels cannot perform miracles, this means that even they are subject to the laws and order of nature. so if this is true, then that if we humans would know how these spirits manipulate our physical world, then would we be able to invent technologies which could stop them?

People who are mentally ill are possessed by an unclean spirit (it may or may not be a demon). Medicine prevents the effects (the illness) of the unclean spirit from presenting itself within the person. So medicine is an example of technology working on the spiritual world. This just doesn’t apply to mental illness. Many things (ailments) within scripture were shown to be caused by the spiritual or even the devil himself which now we have treatments for and even cures.

 

[someperson555]

That could be demonstrated. But some of the medical ceremonies in tribal groups also have some other value to the community (sometimes religious) or to the Dr (maintaining a position of status, power, or control). One might have more success convincing the Dr. to mix a special powder in a drink (like Ibuprofin) and have the patient drink it as he does his dance. I don’t think we need to reach for what I think are distant cultures for most of us to see something like this. There are groups within western cultures that refuse medical treatments in favour of some other method (some holistic medicine techniques, religious ceremonies, and so on). Convincing them can be hard too. Sometimes (but not always) you can convince some one to try a treatment if you encourage them to engage it with their own methods (provided those methods are innocuous or don’t otherwise interact with the medication).

well, i wasnt really talking about holistic medicine, since holistic medicine actually works very well. in fact most shamans and tribal leaders had a knowledge of the effects of herbs, etc. so they probably just already did what you said (mix some in the patients drink and then do their ceremony)
i was drawing a comparison between two people with faulty belief systems. one a materialist dogmatic and the other a spiritualist dogmatic. but as you said the latter is easier to convince by simple education.

 

[someperson555]

People who are mentally ill are possessed by an unclean spirit (it may or may not be a demon). Medicine prevents the effects (the illness) of the unclean spirit from presenting itself within the person. So medicine is an example of technology working on the spiritual world. This just doesn’t apply to mental illness. Many things (ailments) within scripture were shown to be caused by the spiritual or even the devil himself which now we have treatments for and even cures.

unfortunately thats not true, there are many incidents when spirits caused illness (physical or mental) and the patient just faded away and died despite medical treatment. since demons know our biological mechanisms way better than we do, they can easily bypass the effects of any medication.

 

[Murci]

Isn’t it very interesting that demons, angels, ghosts, poltergeists and their assorted brethren only manifest themselves to those who already believe their existence? They leave the skeptics all alone. Did you ever wonder why? Just like God, who only manifests himself to the believers. A skeptic can ask God to come and present himself… and nothing happens. A skeptic can request that some demons would show their faces… and nothing happens. Strange… very strange, isn’t it?

 

[someperson555]

Isn’t it very interesting that demons, angels, ghosts, poltergeists and their assorted brethren only manifest themselves to those who already believe their existence? They leave the skeptics all alone. Did you ever wonder why? Just like God, who only manifests himself to the believers. A skeptic can ask God to come and present himself… and nothing happens. A skeptic can request that some demons would show their faces… and nothing happens. Strange… very strange, isn’t it?

not true, there have been many incidents in which non-bnelievers witnessed miracles, encountered spirits, and God has revealed himself to non-believers in the past. but the biggest factor here is perspective. since theists and atheists have a whole different perspective on the world, they are going to interpret certain phenomena differently. for example, if a religious person is in trouble, and the problem is miraculously resolved, he will attribute it to God, while an atheist would attribute it to chance. but wether it was really God or just chance has nothing to do with what the person in question attributes it to.

 

[Murci]

not true, there have been many incidents in which non-bnelievers witnessed miracles, encountered spirits, and God has revealed himself to non-believers in the past. but the biggest factor here is perspective.

Did he now? When and where? Any well documented instances - not anecdotes? How many of them? There are many professional skeptics, who investigate “haunted houses”, and try to discover if there are any genuine “supernormal” or “paranormal” events happening. Nothing ever happens when they are around. Are the demons or poltergeists too “respectful” of them? Or are they “scared”?

since theists and atheists have a whole different perspective on the world, they are going to interpret certain phenomena differently. for example, if a religious person is in trouble, and the problem is miraculously resolved, he will attribute it to God, while an atheist would attribute it to chance. but wether it was really God or just chance has nothing to do with what the person in question attributes it to.

If there is a possibility of “perspective”, then obviously the case is not clear cut. A real, genuine manifestation cannot be explained away, cannot be interpreted according to the skeptic’s wish or whim. How many of these are there?

 

[someperson555]

Did he now? When and where? Any well documented instances - not anecdotes? How many of them? There are many professional skeptics, who investigate “haunted houses”, and try to discover if there are any genuine “supernormal” or “paranormal” events happening. Nothing ever happens when they are around. Are the demons or poltergeists too “respectful” of them? Or are they “scared”?

If there is a possibility of “perspective”, then obviously the case is not clear cut. A real, genuine manifestation cannot be explained away, cannot be interpreted according to the skeptic’s wish or whim. How many of these are there?

well, he reveals himself to non-believers in subtle ways. so if an atheist is completely closed off to any thought that maybe theres a God, then ofcourse to him nothing will ever be enough proof. for example if one simply studies biology or physics and philosophy, usually that is enough proof to convince the individual that God exists. but the problem is that most atheists are dogmatists, they study these subjects with the premise that God does not exist. so they dont research with a questioning mind, rather they research with mind completely closed off to even the possibility.
ask yourself this, if you were to see Jesus standing in your room right now, would you believe it was him or would you dismiss it as a hallucination. if someone you knew was suffering from fatal incurable cancer but he prayed for healing, then the next day he would be miraculously healed, would you believe that to be a sign from God, or just a coincidence?
usually when a posessed person is brought to a physician or a psychiatrist, they are baffled at the symptoms, and treatment doesnt help, but the skeptics just try to explain it away by saying “well science will be able to explain it later”.
and the reason that demons tend to leave atheists alone is because they dont want people to believe in God. so that is why they usually dont show themselves when theres an atheist or a skeptic present.
question, what would convince you that God exists? what do you want him to do?

 

[Murci]

well, he reveals himself to non-believers in subtle ways. so if an atheist is completely closed off to any thought that maybe theres a God, then ofcourse to him nothing will ever be enough proof.

Nonsense. Do you really say that God is so impotent, that he is unable to create a way which is convincing to an atheist? Do you really have such a low opinion of God?

for example if one simply studies biology or physics and philosophy, usually that is enough proof to convince the individual that God exists. but the problem is that most atheists are dogmatists, they study these subjects with the premise that God does not exist. so they dont research with a questioning mind, rather they research with mind completely closed off to even the possibility.

Wrong. They are not “closed” to the possibility, they see no reason to include it as a null-hypothesis - since it has no explanatory power. But if God would manifest himself in a true, impossible-to-deny way, they would have to accommodate the fact.

ask yourself this, if you were to see Jesus standing in your room right now, would you believe it was him or would you dismiss it as a hallucination.

Why would I think that he is a hallucination? Of course I would offer a few tests to see that he is not an impostor, and if he could pass them, I would gladly accept him as the “real McCoy”.

if someone you knew was suffering from fatal incurable cancer but he prayed for healing, then the next day he would be miraculously healed, would you believe that to be a sign from God, or just a coincidence?

I would weigh the possibilities: 1) the diagnosis was wrong and 2) a miracle happened - and guess what? The chance that we had an incorrect diagnosis would win and no photo-finish would be needed. We see wrong diagnoses all the time…

and the reason that demons tend to leave atheists alone is because they dont want people to believe in God. so that is why they usually dont show themselves when theres an atheist or a skeptic present.

Come on… It is the usual assumption that demons want to “lure” people away from God. And what better way is there than to promise them all sorts of “favors” and FULFILLING their promises? Are your assumed demons “smart” or “dumb”?

question, what would convince you that God exists? what do you want him to do?

Not relevant. God is supposed to know what is the best way to convince the most die-hard skeptics. Such a manifestation is not a logical contradiction, so God is supposed to be able to provide the necessary evidence. And such an evidence would not compel the skeptic to worship God - so his “free will” would not be infringed upon. Let me be brutally honest: even if I knew - beyond ANY doubt (not just reasonable doubt but ANY doubt whatsoever) that God exist - I would not be able to bring myself to “worship” him.

 

[tonyrey]

Nonsense. Do you really say that God is so impotent

 

[tonyrey]

Let me be brutally honest: even if I knew - beyond ANY doubt (not just reasonable doubt but ANY doubt whatsoever) that God exist - I would not be able to bring myself to “worship” him.

Your assertion demonstrates that your notion of God is quite distorted!

 

[Murci]

It’s not God’s impotence but some atheists’ arrogance that is the obstacle!

You got to be kidding. An atheist is asking God to manifest himself. How is that an obstacle? (And kindly drop that annoying habit of shouting. The abundant usage the exclamation point is rude and impolite.)

**How **could God manifest himself “in a true, impossible-to-deny way” without removing our freedom to choose what to believe and how to life?

We freely ask for more infomation. And having actual, clear-cut information instead of superstition would help us in making informed decisons. Information is always superior to ignorance. Aren’t there examples of people who actually met God face-to-face, and still did not obey him? So such demonstration would not take away our freedom at all.

Your assertion demonstrates that your notion of God is quite distorted!

Maybe it is your concept of God which is distorted. The point is that we still could choose to worship or not to worship if we actually knew that there is a God out there.

Of course, all of this is a sideline. The question is why do the demons, angels, poltergeists, ghosts never manifest themselves to professional skeptics - even when they ask for it? Why does God never manifest himself to an atheist, even when he asks for such a manifestation? Are they bashful? Or scared? Or, maybe, you know… there is simply nothing out there?

 

[someperson555]

Nonsense. Do you really say that God is so impotent, that he is unable to create a way which is convincing to an atheist? Do you really have such a low opinion of God?

umm no, i never said he wasnt able to reveal himself to atheists. i said that he doesnt for his own reasons. second he did create “a way which is convincing to atheists”. if you would study physics and natural sciences the proof would be self evident.

Wrong. They are not “closed” to the possibility, they see no reason to include it as a null-hypothesis - since it has no explanatory power. But if God would manifest himself in a true, impossible-to-deny way, they would have to accommodate the fact.

so you admit that atheists automatically disqualify God as a possiblility. “God” has a better explanatory power than the crack-pot hypotheses some of these atheistic physicists are trying to come up with. it has been proven that prior to the big bang there was NO time, space, or matter. this leads us to the conclusion that something outside of time space and matter must have caused the big bang. theists say its God, while atheists say “well, uhhhh musta been somethin’ else”. honestly, does the God still seem like such an absurd hypothesis compared to the other one? furthermore, its more logical to conclude that its God because of all the other evidence (such as design, personality, etc) so atheists are closed minded.
“if a man wishes to remain an atheist, he must be very careful of his reading” -G,K Chesterton

Why would I think that he is a hallucination? Of course I would offer a few tests to see that he is not an impostor, and if he could pass them, I would gladly accept him as the “real McCoy”.

I would weigh the possibilities: 1) the diagnosis was wrong and 2) a miracle happened - and guess what? The chance that we had an incorrect diagnosis would win and no photo-finish would be needed. We see wrong diagnoses all the time…

REALLY? well then consider this, heres an incident of a well documented miracle cure. a girl was born without pupils, so she lived her whole life blind, then when her parents brought her to st. Padre pio, he healed her so she was able to see for the first time. try to explain away that one. this girl was born WITHOUT PUPILS so its not like it was a blood clot causing her blindess. she was born that way. yet God (through padre pio) gave her vision. so it looks like your theory of a 'wrong diagnosis" is out the door. seriously, id like to hear any atheist try to explain away that miracle. and theres many other such incidents.

Come on… It is the usual assumption that demons want to “lure” people away from God. And what better way is there than to promise them all sorts of “favors” and FULFILLING their promises? Are your assumed demons “smart” or “dumb”?

and they do, ever heard of wicthes, psychics, and mediums? and its usually when these wicthes, psychics, and mediums try to turn away from their lifestyle that the demons turn against them.
demons are extremely intelligent, the dumbest demon is more intelligent than the smartest human by far. compare it to this, the dumbest human is by far more intelligent than all the animals on the earth combined. its the same with angels and humans. so they have alll sorts of tricks, and they know how they can best lure you to Hell. some people they prefer stay ignorant of their existence, others they prefer to make a pact with, etc.

Not relevant. God is supposed to know what is the best way to convince the most die-hard skeptics. Such a manifestation is not a logical contradiction, so God is supposed to be able to provide the necessary evidence. And such an evidence would not compel the skeptic to worship God - so his “free will” would not be infringed upon. Let me be brutally honest: even if I knew - beyond ANY doubt (not just reasonable doubt but ANY doubt whatsoever) that God exist - I would not be able to bring myself to “worship” him.

God does provide the necessary evidence of his existence, but you must be willing to look. peter kreeft says on his website “God is like a lover with a marriage proposal” he will not force anyone to believe in him, rather he waits for the individual to find him. but if that individual is closed minded well, what can God do?
as for the second part of your comment, thats normal, i feel that way too. you think i WANT to worship God? do you think i like not being able to have sex with who i want, or get drunk, or gamble? I HATE it, i wish i was an atheist to tell you the truth. however I know that God exists, so i dont have much of a choice. but other than that I worship God for these reasons: 1) he is more powerful than me, so i should do what he says, 2) he is far wiser than i am, so i know that even though he has seemingly stupid rules, he knows why those rules are there and he will one day enlighten us about the reasons. we dont follow our religion because it makes us happy, its only the protestants who try to sell christianity as a product, “worship God and youll be wealthy and powerful, etc.” thats their rehetoric. unfortunately thats not true. we follow catholicism because its the truth.