Will I still go to hell

[Feedmysheep]

I dont see how non christians are all condemed for eternity. It cant be possible. That would make me reject that God.

It depends what you mean by “non-Christian”.

When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, sin entered the world, and the gates of Heaven were closed to us. They had everything we complain about not having spiritually- frequent, obvious contact with God, one-on-one attention, clear cut divine directives. And they STILL chose to place their desires over God’s. Because of that, because they told God through their actions, “Never mind you, WE’RE the real gods”, humanity lost Heaven. Nothing we could ever ever do would make up for that original sin against God. A huge, uncrossable gulf was created between us and God.

That’s why Jesus had to come. When God entered the world, becoming one of us, submitting Himself entirely to Divine Will, and willingly taking our death, our punishment upon His perfect shoulders, He became that bridge we needed to cross the distance between us and God.

So while there are things Jesus clearly commanded us to do in terms of our salvation, none of it is possible without Him as the bridge. Without Jesus’ sacrifice, there is not a single person ever born who was “good enough” to bridge that gap between us and God.

Now, the Church doesn’t teach what happens at the point of death. We do know that we are all God’s creations, and that we’re invited to be the adopted children of God through Jesus. Is it possible that at the moment of death, every soul is given the ultimate chance to know and embrace Christ? That the “non-Christian” has a chance to become Christian? Well, nothing is impossible through God.

But if a soul IS given that chance, and still denies the necessity and effect of Christ’s sacrifice, it’s like a person seeing a bridge crossing a bottomless pit, refusing to use the bridge, preferring to jump instead, and wondering why they don’t make it to the other side.

I hope this makes some sense.

 

[notsmart]

Yes, in a way it does. But what if they reject Jesus because they felt he failed?

I mean, if they never got to see him in any way- through another, or any other source?

I saw a historical Jesus in the bible, but it took a lot more than that, for me to want to know more about this God Man, and his claims.

All my life, up to a few days ago, I did not give much speculation above the obvious fact that he was here, and we know this, but to me, it did not add up.

But, my child- is not clouded by any view. I am not like my parents, and when she asks me things, I try to give her a view that is objective, so she has her own options.

I dont want to project, my world view on her, because I am not sure mine is correct. I admit, I have been lazy, and uncaring about the matter.

But, now its all different.

I care.

It depends what you mean by “non-Christian”.

When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, sin entered the world, and the gates of Heaven were closed to us. They had everything we complain about not having spiritually- frequent, obvious contact with God, one-on-one attention, clear cut divine directives. And they STILL chose to place their desires over God’s. Because of that, because they told God through their actions, “Never mind you, WE’RE the real gods”, humanity lost Heaven. Nothing we could ever ever do would make up for that original sin against God. A huge, uncrossable gulf was created between us and God.

That’s why Jesus had to come. When God entered the world, becoming one of us, submitting Himself entirely to Divine Will, and willingly taking our death, our punishment upon His perfect shoulders, He became that bridge we needed to cross the distance between us and God.

So while there are things Jesus clearly commanded us to do in terms of our salvation, none of it is possible without Him as the bridge. Without Jesus’ sacrifice, there is not a single person ever born who was “good enough” to bridge that gap between us and God.

Now, the Church doesn’t teach what happens at the point of death. We do know that we are all God’s creations, and that we’re invited to be the adopted children of God through Jesus. Is it possible that at the moment of death, every soul is given the ultimate chance to know and embrace Christ? That the “non-Christian” has a chance to become Christian? Well, nothing is impossible through God.

But if a soul IS given that chance, and still denies the necessity and effect of Christ’s sacrifice, it’s like a person seeing a bridge crossing a bottomless pit, refusing to use the bridge, preferring to jump instead, and wondering why they don’t make it to the other side.

I hope this makes some sense.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Yes, in a way it does. But what if they reject Jesus because they felt he failed?

Are they rejecting Jesus or are they rejecting a false interpretation of Jesus? This is a very sensitive question. As Catholics we have Christ’s guarantee of the fullness of the truth to know Jesus in the eucharist, to know His teachings without error, but others do not have that advantage and even with that advantage we Catholics have our own concupiscence and pride that distorts the acceptance of those teachings.

It is a great mystery. I think if we are humble and receptive and have faith we will allow Jesus to correct our misinterpretations and with great joy accept His teachings and Him and ask His forgiveness (for we all fall short). If we have been sinful and selfish, will we accept His truth or cling to self righteousness?

Sorry, I don’t know if this helped.

I mean, if they never got to see him in any way- through another, or any other source?

I think even so they will meet Him at their personal judgement. I think what that is like is a mystery and it is also a mystery if, when and how He may call out at the moment of life’s ending. He loves us. That is not a mystery. Look at a crucifix.

I saw a historical Jesus in the bible, but it took a lot more than that, for me to want to know more about this God Man, and his claims.

To want to know more is the begining of love. Pray and keep your heart open. Pray the Rosary. Mary will guide you to her divine Son as you study.

 

[mikew262]

QUOTE=bilop;4018780]What does that mean?

We have Christ’s assurance that the Church has the power to bind and loose.

If a person repents and confesses their sins and receives absolution before death, they are assured of salvation. Full Stop.

God Bless

It means only those who have been saved can go to heaven, only those who are good Christians, live by God’s rules such as going to church, following the dogma, can go to heaven. Only God knows who is saved, unless you are telling me that really it’s the Church that has the authority to say who is and is not saved?

Is that what you mean by bind and loose?

Otherwise what’s the point of punishing sin if absolutely anybody can go to heaven?

Only God knows and determines who goes to Heaven. All of us may be a little surprised to find out who is actually there and who isn’t.

 

[Linda_Marie]

To Mrs Younan:

I recommend that you read the Parable of the Prodigal Son.

Here is Luke 15 where the story is found.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Yes, in a way it does. But what if they reject Jesus because they felt he failed?

I’m not sure what you mean by “they felt he failed”, but if a soul ultimately rejects Jesus, then there is no way for them to get to Heaven.

I mean, if they never got to see him in any way- through another, or any other source?

I saw a historical Jesus in the bible, but it took a lot more than that, for me to want to know more about this God Man, and his claims.

What you’re talking about is called invincible ignorance, and the Church teaches that such people can be saved. Search for threads on invincible ignorance, or, check out the Catechism of the Catholic Church online here:
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

All my life, up to a few days ago, I did not give much speculation above the obvious fact that he was here, and we know this, but to me, it did not add up.

I don’t know your circumstances or situation, but I would say that it is His grace that is working in your heart right now, leading you here with a spirit of interest and investigation.

But, my child- is not clouded by any view. I am not like my parents, and when she asks me things, I try to give her a view that is objective, so she has her own options.

I dont want to project, my world view on her, because I am not sure mine is correct. I admit, I have been lazy, and uncaring about the matter.

But, now its all different.

Yup. Once you have children of your own, everything changes. Without getting into a discussion of the duty of parents to teach their children the Truth, know that what I said above goes doubly now that you’re a parent. It is God’s grace that is spurring this search of yours, for both you AND your child.

I’d suggest checking out a copy of the Catechism for starters, read what the Church teaches on invincible ignorance.

 

[bilop]

It means only those who have been saved can go to heaven, only those who are good Christians, live by God’s rules such as going to church, following the dogma, can go to heaven. Only God knows who is saved, unless you are telling me that really it’s the Church that has the authority to say who is and is not saved?

Is that what you mean by bind and loose?

Otherwise what’s the point of punishing sin if absolutely anybody can go to heaven?

No. Bind and loose means the authority to forgive sins.

We are ALL sinners, even the most devout Catholic. We ALL need forgiveness to be saved. The ordinary means of obtaining this forgiveness is Confession to a validly ordained priest.

If one sincerely repents his sin, and receives absolution from a priest his sins are forgiven. All that is necessary for salvation is sincere repentence (only God can judge sincerity) and absolution, no matter how many or how few sins we commit.

God Bless

 

[Starwynd]

so a person can committ the most henious of crimes, suc as say killing children, and be forgiven?

Then what’s the point of hell if that’s true?

 

[demol]

so a person can committ the most henious of crimes, suc as say killing children, and be forgiven?

Then what’s the point of hell if that’s true?

For those that choose not to repent.

 

[turnorburn]

No. God wishes everyone to be with Him in Heaven, and has granted us all the means of salvation through Jesus Christ.

As a non-Christian, you can be saved. But, if you are saved you will be saved through Jesus Christ and His Church. That is what “Outside the Church there is no salvation” means. All who are saved are eventually incorporated into the Church.

This need not be formal membership. We don’t really know how it happens. Christ may come to people before their deaths to give them a last chance to accept him. Others, who are moral, but have never heard of Christ, may be saved by what is called “invincible ignorance”. Truly, it has not been revealed to us.

What has been revealed to us is that if we belong to His Church (Catholic or Orthodox basically), receive the sacraments, and die in a state of grace, we are assured of salvation.

God Bless

“invincible ignorance” where is that to be found in scripture, if it doesn’t hold up to scripture it is a false doctrine. The women only need go to Christ “Absolution” find that in scripture if its not in scripture it to is false doctrine. “receive the sacraments” find that in scripture, it to is false doctrine, “plenary indulgence” find it in the scriptures, it to is false doctrine. Now I ask why don’t you show her the way, do you know the way? Jesus said I Am the way the truth and the life, and again, nobody comes to the Father but by me… now that’s scripture.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

You will find these concepts in Scripture, but you have to understand Scripture and it is plain from your post that you do not. Arrogance is a poor tutor.

“Many will say to me Lord, Lord…”

Why did Christ give the power to His apostles to forgive sin? Bt I geuss you can just presume on Christ’s authority and His judgement because you think you know the depth of God’s revealed wisdom in Scripture???

I’ll pray for you. Seriously.

 

[bilop]

“invincible ignorance” where is that to be found in scripture, if it doesn’t hold up to scripture it is a false doctrine. The women only need go to Christ “Absolution” find that in scripture if its not in scripture it to is false doctrine. “receive the sacraments” find that in scripture, it to is false doctrine, “plenary indulgence” find it in the scriptures, it to is false doctrine. Now I ask why don’t you show her the way, do you know the way? Jesus said I Am the way the truth and the life, and again, nobody comes to the Father but by me… now that’s scripture.

Well, as for Invincible Ignorance, the descent of Christ to “limbo patrem” the limbo of the fathers, to raise the righteous dead to Heaven is all the evidence you need.

The Old Testament patriarchs (and all the other righteous) did not know Christ, and did not worship him as God. Yet, they were saved b/c they did this out of ignorance; they could not possibly have known to be Christians.

As for the sacraments, Jesus explicitly mentions Holy Communion (you must eat my flesh to be saved), Baptism, and Confession (binding and loosing of sins).

In any case, the Church was around for 300 years before the Bible. Tradition came before Scripture. All three have authority. Something need not be in scripture to be true.

God Bless

 

[bilop]

so a person can committ the most henious of crimes, suc as say killing children, and be forgiven?

Then what’s the point of hell if that’s true?

Of course. If they can’t be forgiven, how can any of us be forgiven his mortal sins?

St. Paul murdered Christians. Do you think he shouldn’t be in Heaven? St. Peter denied Christ, how about him?

Now, I would guess that most who commit heinous crimes do not repent (at least not sincerely, and God of course knows). They have probably so deformed their conscience through sins that they do not know how to repent, or don’t even recognize their acts as sins.

But, those who do sincerely repent (even if it is only out of fear of Hell) and receive absolution from a priest, will be saved just like any other sinner.

God Bless

 

[turnorburn]

Of course. If they can’t be forgiven, how can any of us be forgiven his mortal sins?

St. Paul murdered Christians. Do you think he shouldn’t be in Heaven? St. Peter denied Christ, how about him?

Now, I would guess that most who commit heinous crimes do not repent (at least not sincerely, and God of course knows). They have probably so deformed their conscience through sins that they do not know how to repent, or don’t even recognize their acts as sins.

But, those who do sincerely repent (even if it is only out of fear of Hell) and receive absolution from a priest, will be saved just like any other sinner.

God Bless

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
were is this in scripture “absolution from a priest” we have one high Priest in heaven, where did yours come from, is it the Pope in whom you trust

 

[bilop]

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/jesuschildsmaller0ip.gif
were is this in scripture “absolution from a priest” we have one high Priest in heaven, where did yours come from, is it the Pope in whom you trust

St. Matthew, Ch. 16

13 And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? 14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?

16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Right here Christ establishes St. Peter as head of his Church and transmits the power to forgive sins to his apostles.

God Bless

 

[Feedmysheep]

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/jesuschildsmaller0ip.gif
were is this in scripture “absolution from a priest” we have one high Priest in heaven, where did yours come from, is it the Pope in whom you trust

Dude, how many times does this have to happen? START YOUR OWN THREAD ON THE SUBJECT! Or, utilize the fancy “search” option and jump into one already started.

This poor woman who originally posted the question is clearly Catholic, asking for a Catholic viewpoint. Yes, she has come on to a forum which allows non-Catholics to participate, and she posted in a subsection of Apologetics instead of, say, Liturgy and Sacraments, which further increased her exposure to non-Catholics, HOWEVER, Forum rules clearly state:

• Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
• Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.
• Messages posted to threads should be on-topic. If you wish to discuss another topic, start a new thread.

Your posts on this thread do not follow these rules.

 

[Feedmysheep]

so a person can committ the most henious of crimes, suc as say killing children, and be forgiven?

While I am in full agreement that any mistreatment of children is so vile as to be unforgivable from a human standpoint, luckily, God isn’t human. God has shown us that with repentance, we can be forgiven.

Then what’s the point of hell if that’s true?

The point of hell (if hell has a point at all) is there are some people who never repent. Ever. If a person dies unrepentant, that soul condemns itself to hell. God doesn’t send people to hell, people send themselves there.

 

[turnorburn]

St. Matthew, Ch. 16

Right here Christ establishes St. Peter as head of his Church and transmits the power to forgive sins to his apostles.

God Bless

I’m afraid that argument has been gone over and over and over and over again, are you absolutely sure you want to go over it again? In the end it so turns out that that doctrine leads to blaspheme establishing a man in place of God Almighty I’ll leave the decision up to you, now it may take a considerable amount of time, I’ll bring in my experts you’ll bring in yours “right”

 

[MrsYounan]

TO feedmysheep and all the kind souls in reply to my post,
Thank you so much for all the (name removed by moderator)ut. I think I really started a hullaballoo here and I am sorry. But I have to thank you bilop. You made me remember something I had never thought of. You are right when you say Paul murdered Christians. Is he not in Heaven? Like Paul, I was being bugged in my heart about this and was called to repent and I did. I recieved my plenary indulgence and I truly feel like I have a whole new start again. I know my old archenemy, Satan is going to be back but realizing so much of God’s grace and the intercession of Mary and St. Michael, I will never lose another battle again. I am on my way to restoring EVERYTHING the devil stole from me and God is right here now with me. He will help me.
Thanks to all of you, I remembered you in my prayers and will continue to do so for all of you and yours.
God be with you
Your Friend in Christ
MrsY.