Will neuroscience debunk the Catholic teaching that only God can know our thoughts?

[Ben_Sinner]

As Catholics we are taught that no one other than God can read our mind and know our thoughts. Even the devil doesn’t have this ability. But there has been a recent experiment done on people where their complex thoughts were revealed on a machine.

sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170626105758.htm

Carnegie Mellon University scientists can now use brain activation patterns to identify complex thoughts, such as, “The witness shouted during the trial.”

This also raises the question, does this mean that evolutionary psychology got it right in that everything is biological and not spiritual/abstract?

from the article…

The findings indicate that the mind’s building blocks for constructing complex thoughts are formed by the brain’s various sub-systems and are not word-based.

 

[GEddie]

Waiting to see what answers come out.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Estevao]

Philosophy of mind is probably the hardest discipline of philosophy to get a grasp of. Most neurobiologists have absolutely no training in it, yet they talk about it constantly. I recommend trying to learn it before coming to conclusions that touch upon the dogmas of our faith.

 

[Crusaderbear]

It would put the politicians out of business! But it’s one of those things that will remain just out of reach for a very long time!

 

[porthos11]

I don’t see where this is even remotely contradictory.

For one thing, people already have the ability to read other people’s thoughts. Through speech and writing.

This is no different. Even if in theory a way is found to translate neural patterns into understandable language, it’s still done using an interface, just as speech, writing, and signals are all interfaces.

God does not use an interface to know our thoughts. He knows them intimately without any need for translation or devices, and he knows our thoughts as they are formed in our souls, not just our brains, and even before we do.

Here’s a principle you can live by before even asking the question: Does this [insert scientific discovery here] disprove [some defined Catholic dogma of faith]? The answer is always NO, NO, NO.

The Church does not fear science. Long live science and scientific discovery! Because through science, God is glorified.

 

[pianistclare]

I don’t see where this is even remotely contradictory.

For one thing, people already have the ability to read other people’s thoughts. Through speech and writing.

This is no different. Even if in theory a way is found to translate neural patterns into understandable language, it’s still done using an interface, just as speech, writing, and signals are all interfaces.

God does not use an interface to know our thoughts. He knows them intimately without any need for translation or devices, and he knows our thoughts as they are formed in our souls, not just our brains, and even before we do.
**
Here’s a principle you can live by before even asking the question: Does this [insert scientific discovery here] disprove [some defined Catholic dogma of faith]? The answer is always NO, NO, NO.**

The Church does not fear science. Long live science and scientific discovery! Because through science, God is glorified.

:clapping:

 

[STT]

As Catholics we are taught that no one other than God can read our mind and know our thoughts. Even the devil doesn’t have this ability. But there has been a recent experiment done on people where their complex thoughts were revealed on a machine.

sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170626105758.htm

Carnegie Mellon University scientists can now use brain activation patterns to identify complex thoughts, such as, “The witness shouted during the trial.”

This also raises the question, does this mean that evolutionary psychology got it right in that everything is biological and not spiritual/abstract?

from the article…

The findings indicate that the mind’s building blocks for constructing complex thoughts are formed by the brain’s various sub-systems and are not word-based.

I think all spiritual beings can read our minds.

 

[porthos11]

I think all spiritual beings can read our minds.

Possibly, with the caveat: if God permits.

Only God has the inherent power to know our thoughts, by virtue of his being God. Spirits may have insight into our thoughts too, but this is by permission because while spirits are magnitudes more powerful than we are, they are still finite. Therefore, any ability to read human thoughts must be one granted by God.

It’s a comforting thought. I would hate the idea that the devil knows my innermost thoughts. If he does, it’s only so that God can work a greater good, and it’s only temporary.

 

[GEddie]

I don’t see where this is even remotely contradictory.

For one thing, people already have the ability to read other people’s thoughts. Through speech and writing.

This is no different. Even if in theory a way is found to translate neural patterns into understandable language, it’s still done using an interface, just as speech, writing, and signals are all interfaces.

God does not use an interface to know our thoughts. He knows them intimately without any need for translation or devices, and he knows our thoughts as they are formed in our souls, not just our brains, and even before we do.

Here’s a principle you can live by before even asking the question: Does this [insert scientific discovery here] disprove [some defined Catholic dogma of faith]? The answer is always NO, NO, NO.

The Church does not fear science. Long live science and scientific discovery! Because through science, God is glorified.

There’s a difference though, in that using one’s voice or fingers to transmit one’s thoughts requires an act of the will. But what if technology allowed reading the mind while bypassing the person’s will?

ICXC NIKA

 

[In_Hoc_Signo312]

There’s a difference though, in that using one’s voice or fingers to transmit one’s thoughts requires an act of the will. But what if technology allowed reading the mind while bypassing the person’s will?

ICXC NIKA

Plus that doesn’t mean that they really mean what they write or say.

 

[reggieM]

One thing that has not been proven here is brain-thought causality.
Notice this phrase from the article:

**thoughts **of familiar objects, like bananas or hammers, evoke activation patterns that involve the neural systems

Thoughts light up parts of the brain. This does not show that the brain produces the thought.

In the new study

the brain activation patterns for 239 sentences corresponded to the neurally plausible semantic features that characterized each sentence

Brain activation corresponded to sentence features. It does not show that the physical brain created the thought, but only that it responds to thought. The thought is immaterial from the soul, acting on the brain.

 

[phil19034]

creating a machine that can read our thoughts is completely different.

A machine theoretically would read our thoughts by reading the neurons firing in our brains.

The machine would not be reading our soul.

Sometimes our thoughts betray us because thoughts are not always a true reflection of our souls.

When God reads our minds, he’s also reading our heart and soul. Thoughts can be controlled by emotion, so our thoughts can betray us.

For example: having a sinful thought is not a sin, but dwelling on a sinful thought can be sinful, and obviously acting on a sinful thought is sinful too. Point is, out thoughts are not always a reflection of our hearts & souls.

God can tell the difference… no machine ever will.

 

[BroIgnatius]

Philosophy of mind is probably the hardest discipline of philosophy to get a grasp of. Most neurobiologists have absolutely no training in it, yet they talk about it constantly. I recommend trying to learn it before coming to conclusions that touch upon the dogmas of our faith.

Amen

 

[BroIgnatius]

creating a machine that can read our thoughts is completely different.

A machine theoretically would read our thoughts by reading the neurons firing in our brains.

The machine would not be reading our soul.

Sometimes our thoughts betray us because thoughts are not always a true reflection of our souls.

When God reads our minds, he’s also reading our heart and soul. Thoughts can be controlled by emotion, so our thoughts can betray us.

For example: having a sinful thought is not a sin, but dwelling on a sinful thought can be sinful, and obviously acting on a sinful thought is sinful too. Point is, out thoughts are not always a reflection of our hearts & souls.

God can tell the difference… no machine ever will.

Another excellent analysis :tiphat:

 

[po18guy]

No. While neuroscience probes our minds, God knows our hearts. It’s kinda like waiting at the airport when your ship comes in.

 

[GEddie]

No. While neuroscience probes our minds, God knows our hearts. It’s kinda like waiting at the airport when your ship comes in.

Let’s not overtease our language. The heart pumps blood, but it is no more “us” than the mind.

At the time of Scripture, the heart was believed to be one with the mind, IMS.

ICXC NIKA

 

[AgnosticBoy]

As Catholics we are taught that no one other than God can read our mind and know our thoughts. Even the devil doesn’t have this ability. But there has been a recent experiment done on people where their complex thoughts were revealed on a machine.

sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170626105758.htm

Carnegie Mellon University scientists can now use brain activation patterns to identify complex thoughts, such as, “The witness shouted during the trial.”

This also raises the question, does this mean that evolutionary psychology got it right in that everything is biological and not spiritual/abstract?

from the article…

The findings indicate that the mind’s building blocks for constructing complex thoughts are formed by the brain’s various sub-systems and are not word-based.

I’m not sure about all of what the Catholic claim involves, but I can at least address the claim about certain types of thoughts (or subjective experience, in general) being nonphysical. These studies involve researchers observing thoughts indirectly. What they’re able to directly observe and decode are the electrochemical brain activity which is not the same as the subjective experience itself (whether it be a mental image of a green apple, or a song you’re playing in your head). While the decoded information (representing our thoughts) can be transmitted to monitors for all to see or read, but those are not how we’re experiencing our thoughts since we’re experiencing it on our minds. These studies do not explain why we have no monitors nor speakers in our head, but yet are able to “see” images or “hear” sounds in our mind.

 

[GEddie]

I’m not sure about all of what the Catholic claim involves, but I can at least address the claim about certain types of thoughts (or subjective experience, in general) being nonphysical. These studies involve researchers observing thoughts indirectly. What they’re able to directly observe and decode are the electrochemical brain activity which is not the same as the subjective experience itself (whether it be a mental image of a green apple, or a song you’re playing in your head). While the decoded information (representing our thoughts) can be transmitted to monitors for all to see or read, but those are not how we’re experiencing our thoughts since we’re experiencing it on our minds. These studies do not explain why we have no monitors nor speakers in our head, but yet are able to “see” images or “hear” sounds in our mind.

There is also the factor that they first must calibrate the scanner for each particular head. I’d venture that the neuro activity for the same content in different people would not be the same.

ICXC NIKA

 

[reggieM]

A machine theoretically would read our thoughts by reading the neurons firing in our brains.

True. The machine cannot actually read any thoughts. It cannot observe thoughts at all. What the researchers do is tell people to think of things, then they see which neurons fire off. Then later, they just look at neurons and predict the thought.

It’'s not that much different than reading body-language or lip-reading. You look at the body moving, and you can predict something about the thought.

But nobody actually sees the thought itself. Nobody knows where the thought comes from physically (we would say it comes from the immaterial soul, intelligence, will, imagination). Nobody knows where the thought is stored or what produces it. You can’t look in the brain and see a collection of thought-data.

 

[BroIgnatius]

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what person knows a man’s thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Father Fortea, a noted exorcist, answers the question, can demons read our thoughts?

No. Though demons can tempt us, they cannot read our thoughts. With their great intelligence, they can guess what we are thinking – but they can never be absolutely certain. As spiritual beings, they are much more intelligent than we are, and as such, they can deduce things with greater accuracy and with fewer external signs than we can. But we always have to remember that demons are outside our souls; only God can truly read the soul. This being said, if one directs his mind and will to a saint, an angel, or a demon, they can hear us. So it does not matter whether our prayer is verbal or merely mental. In certain cases of possession I have observed that the demon obeys orders that have been given mentally.

This is an area in which exorcists agree.

In addition, theologians, like Peter Kreeft make the same point. Anyone versed in Angelology 101 knows that the nature of Angels (and demons) does not give them this ability to read our minds against our will.