Will Orthodox and Catholics Reconcile?

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Eastern Orthodox had something similar called “absolution certificates”
That’s true.

I think it was inspired the western practice, but was not adopted everywhere in Orthodoxy. It did not show up in the east until after the Council of Trent in the west, which is when the Roman Catholic church was cleaning up it’s act.

The main theoretical difference is it is not an indulgence for remission temporal punishment. Orthodox believe that there is no temporal punishment for a sin already forgiven in confession. Catholics (correct me if you disagree) believe that there is still some ‘satisfaction’ due to God for a sin forgiven.

Thus, if the temporal punishment has not been expiated in this life it will ‘roll over’ into the next. Fortunately, for Catholics, the church has this ‘Teasury of Merits’ from which to draw, which can be applied against the need for a temporal punishment.
Pretty much everything in this post differs from what I’ve learned over the years. I may be misinformed, but then again, Hesychios gives no support for his claims.

The origin of indulgences and the “synchorochartia” are probably the same and are linked to the literal “temporal punishments” of the early church. Grave sin was accompanied by - dare I say punished by - excommunication for a period of time, after which was could be reconciled to the church. This period could be shortened by dispensation or indulgence, even in recognition of ascetic efforts signifying repentance. (The “days” attached to indulgences reflected this mitigation of ecclesiastical penalities.)

Even though such an application of excommunication is rare in modern times ( I don’t think EO’s give five years excommunications in the event of divorce anymore), the idea of temporal punishment still persists, and in reality does so in the east and west. The sense is in the CCC.
Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.
Through the mystery of confession, sin is forgiven. And while that forgiveness reconciles us, we still have work to do. One might be forgiven for bouts of drunkeness, but one still has to work to change one’s inclination to drink, - otherwise one still badly “misses the mark”, which is the eastern sense of sin. In the Eastern perspective, in cooperation with God’s grace through prayers of the saints and disciplines (often punishing disciplines) of prayer, fasting, almsgiving, etc, we are weaned from our attachment to things of this world and are increasingly purified. This is theosis - a process that “rolls over” into the next life. The language is different from that used in the West, but the overall sense is strongly the same - unless one wants to quibble over the language itself.
Eventually the church condemned the practice
I am curious about the condemnations, and the time frame of it (a 20th century innovation, IIRC). - as well as the earlier claim that this was adopted from the west: were there no synchorochartia in the first millenia to reduce the times of excommunication?
 
Of course the Church has always dealt with outside opinions of those that criticize the “badness” (in their eyes) of certain areas of her theology. They often distort the teaching by projecting (polemic) metaphors or opinions that aren’t actually there in the official teaching. You’ve managed to claim a financial transaction metaphor in the teaching that is not there in the official teaching, to dismiss the teaching.
Actually, the “treasury of merits” metaphor is right there in the Catechism–you quote it yourself below!
Claiming the metaphor leads to a literal transaction. Again, using a few bad examples in centuries past to surmise that the teaching must be false.
Actually, that is precisely what I said in my previous post I was not doing. The abuse is the sort of abuse that would naturally follow if my criticism of the theology is correct, but that’s not the basis of my criticism.

You are essentially using the presence of the abuse as a smokescreen to ward of criticism of the teaching, which is rather odd to say the least:rolleyes:

The fact that people did actually turn indulgences into a financial transaction is surely not evidence against my claim that the teaching was distorted!😛 But my claim stands or falls independently of the existence of the abuse. At most, the abuse is a reason to look closely at the teaching and take criticisms of it seriously–but the criticisms must be considered on their own merits.
What do you object to in this teaching below, taken from the Vatican website?
"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven
The concept of “temporal punishment” as a debt of justice is erroneous. There is certainly temporal punishment in the sense of fatherly discipline, but it is purely restorative, not retributive. Jesus’ death canceled all legal debts for those who repent and believe (with a living faith that works through love). Therefore, the idea of “remitting” such punishment is itself a distortion of orthodox Christian teaching. Since the paternal discipline of which Hebrews 12 speaks is necessary for our sanctification, to remit it would not be a loving act.
 
which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."
There is no warrant in Scripture or tradition for speaking of such a “treasury” from which the Church can dispense grace in bits.
“An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin.”
What this amounts to, combined with the previous teaching on the Church’s authority, is that the Church can decide whether part or all of this “temporal punishment” is to be remitted. In the older language, the Church could in fact quantify how much was remitted in a partial indulgence–the abandonment of this language is certainly a step in the right direction. (And yes, I know that the “days” attached to indulgences at one time were days of canonical penance, not days in Purgatory.)
The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead
If this is understood as the same power exercised in intercession (I can choose to pray for one person rather than another), then I can accept it. However, the legal/financial language used above makes me nervous even about this, because it seems to apply that grace is the sort of thing that can be transferred from one person’s account to another. This is in fact the root of the erroneous Protestant doctrine of forensic justification–indeed, if we accept the idea of a legal transfer of merit in the first place, Luther and Melancthon were correct to teach that the only such transfer necessary is the transfer of Christ’s merit to ours on the basis of a living faith in Christ’s saving work.
Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory.
Agreed.
This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.
This part is, in my opinion, thoroughly sound. The problem is that this sound teaching does not fit well with the legal and financial language inherent in indulgence theology, even as found in the quotes from Paul VI in the previous paragraph. What we have is an awkward attempt to correct past error without acknowledging that it really was error–exactly the sort of thing that Anglo-Catholics have been doing for 150 years, with disastrous results. And it is no accident that in your Communion similar (but less severe) results followed, namely a great deal of confusion about just what Catholic Tradition really was.

If the whole question is really about the degree of charity present in the soul, then an indulgence must simply be something that increases charity. If indulgences are redefined along those terms, then I have no problem with them. (That is to say, I have no problem with the Church saying that a certain practice, if engaged in with the right intentions, will have a tendency to increase charity, and I have no problem with the Church further saying that such a practice can be done with the intention of benefiting another member of the Body of Christ.) But in that case the “treasury” language must be officially condemned, rather than being fossilized and reinterpreted.
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."84
I don’t have a problem with this, except insofar as the language of “temporal punishment” has in the past implied a legal, retributive punishment, and its continued use could easily continue to give people that impression. However, the bigger issue is that this paragraph, again, contradicts the concept of indulgences. If we are to strive to accept “temporal punishment” as a grace, then what is the point of trying to get this punishment “remitted”? If the point is simply that we are to strive for increased charity, which will make fatherly discipline unnecessary, then why not say so?

In short, I think the basic theological point being made in this passage is a wonderful one–but this casts into sharper relief the fact that the traditional language of indulgence theology conflicts with the basic theological thrust of the Catechism and has to be awkwardly reinterpreted.

Edwin
 
If we are to strive to accept “temporal punishment” as a grace, then what is the point of trying to get this punishment “remitted”? If the point is simply that we are to strive for increased charity, which will make fatherly discipline unnecessary, then why not say so?
I think that that is precisely what is being said.
In short, I think the basic theological point being made in this passage is a wonderful one–but this casts into sharper relief the fact that the traditional language of indulgence theology conflicts with the basic theological thrust of the Catechism and has to be awkwardly reinterpreted.
I am not convinced of the sharp relief, or the conflict with traditional language. It is difficult to avoid anachronism when reading words from the past; the hard part is to hear with ears of the past. The manner of conveying the truth, or even emphases, may vary among people of different mentalities in different times and places, but the essential truth is the does not change.
 
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