Will Pope Benedict reform the liturgy?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ken_Grooms
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
K

Ken_Grooms

Guest
I just read “Spirit of the Liturgy.” Cardinal Ratzinger clearly staked out an orthodox (as opposed to orthoprax) position with regard to the liturgy. His cosmological explanation of the Church as leading all of creation to the spiritual Oriens to meet its maker, the Logos, not only, I believe, situates him at the head of the modern liturgiologist class, but also hints at what he might do as Pope. What do you think - will this meek and humble servant of the Lord shake things up? Might he, for example, make priests face East again?
 
Ken Grooms:
I just read “Spirit of the Liturgy.” Cardinal Ratzinger clearly staked out an orthodox (as opposed to orthoprax) position with regard to the liturgy. His cosmological explanation of the Church as leading all of creation to the spiritual Oriens to meet its maker, the Logos, not only, I believe, situates him at the head of the modern liturgiologist class, but also hints at what he might do as Pope. What do you think - will this meek and humble servant of the Lord shake things up? Might he, for example, make priests face East again?
Click to expand...
As much as I hope so, I would personally be inclined to doubt that he would mandate any wholescale changes. And as a practical matter, even if he did, I certainly have no trouble believing that certain Bishops worldwide would just ignore him and continue on their merry way. Add that to the fact that a sizeable portion of the Catholic Religious and the laity particularly in Western Europe, North America and Australia are enamored of the new liturgy and would be loathe to accept any changes at all even relatively minor ones. When the word got out about impending changes such as mandating the use of “and with your spirit” instead of “and also with you” you should have heard the mournful wailing and gnashing of teeth. :crying:

No, I don’t believe there will be any substantial changes.

But I can always hope and pray that there are. 👍
 
Ken Grooms:
I just read “Spirit of the Liturgy.” Cardinal Ratzinger clearly staked out an orthodox (as opposed to orthoprax) position with regard to the liturgy. His cosmological explanation of the Church as leading all of creation to the spiritual Oriens to meet its maker, the Logos, not only, I believe, situates him at the head of the modern liturgiologist class, but also hints at what he might do as Pope. What do you think - will this meek and humble servant of the Lord shake things up? Might he, for example, make priests face East again?
Click to expand...
He’ll probably reform it; but I doubt he’ll mandate that priests face the east. Last I heard he thought that the current practice had existed too long, and the solution was not to turn back toward the East but to create an ecclesial-east by putting a cross in the centre of the altar; he might encourage them to face the East, though. I think that he will, however, mandate that there always be a cross on the altar, and I think he will draw up reformed rites–that is if he reigns long enough.
 
40.png
palmas85:
As much as I hope so, I would personally be inclined to doubt that he would mandate any wholescale changes. And as a practical matter, even if he did, I certainly have no trouble believing that certain Bishops worldwide would just ignore him and continue on their merry way. Add that to the fact that a sizeable portion of the Catholic Religious and the laity particularly in **Western Europe, North America and Australia ** are enamored of the new liturgy and would be loathe to accept any changes at all even relatively minor ones. When the word got out about impending changes such as mandating the use of “and with your spirit” instead of “and also with you” you should have heard the mournful wailing and gnashing of teeth. :crying:

No, I don’t believe there will be any substantial changes.

But I can always hope and pray that there are. 👍
Click to expand...
I apologise if I’m talking about something different from you but in case you are referring to moving away from the NO and back to the TLM I don’t think that will ever happen. Not just in the regions you mention above but in Asia, Africa and Latin America the vast majority are happy with the NO Mass.
In short most Catholics in the world don’t even think about the TLM. In general (but not only) the ones who want that back are older folks and mostly American, but even there I believe its only a small minority.
 
This is only my personal opinion and personal experience, but I think that people are happy with the NO because most don’t know anything else. I will go back to my analogy that if you were given a chioce of purple or green and purple is all you have ever seen and you have never seen green, you would probably choose purple and be very happy with your choice. Most of the people that I talk to (my age and younger) have never even heard of a TLM and are very interested. There is a group of people in my church that were willing to drive 3 hrs to experience one. Unfortunately that’s when gas prices soared and then everyone’s husband deployed etc… But we are still looking into making the trip at some point. Again, I think the disconnect is exposure. Let’s hope for that universal indult and let people see the beauty that the TLM offers and go from there.
 
40.png
thistle:
In general (but not only) the ones who want that back are older folks and mostly American, but even there I believe its only a small minority.
Click to expand...
My experience has been that the average age at TLM is younger than the average age at a Novus Ordo in the same region. I think that this is a phenominon which involves many many youth.
 
No he was not talking about going to the Tridentine Liturgy from the Novus Ordo but rather celebrating the Novus Ordo correctly which includes the priest facing East.

I for one think that he will indeed make changes. While addressing the seminarians of the Archdiocese recently my Archbishop specifically mentioned that they should not be supprised to see some serious changes in the liturgy and he specifically mentioned the priest facing ad orientem as oen of these possible changes. This excites me because as far as I know it is only in Peru that this is happening on a regular basis in the parishes.
 
40.png
thistle:
I apologise if I’m talking about something different from you but in case you are referring to moving away from the NO and back to the TLM I don’t think that will ever happen. Not just in the regions you mention above but in Asia, Africa and Latin America the vast majority are happy with the NO Mass.
In short most Catholics in the world don’t even think about the TLM. In general (but not only) the ones who want that back are older folks and mostly American, but even there I believe its only a small minority.
Click to expand...
I wasn’t talking about the Traditional Mass. I know we’re never going back to that. No way no how, it isn’t going to happen. No I was speaking of the Novus Ordo Mass, the way it is currently celebrated. Most people in the Western World, Europe, North America and Australia, etc, are delirious with the way things are. And in actuality since they are the ones where a huge percentage of Romes finances come from 🙂 they are the ones that Rome is going to try to keep happy. Sorry to be cynical, but unless the Holy Father is a lot different than his predecessor, he is not going to rock the boat too much. At least I haven’t seen anything that he has done to indicate it. True he wrote a lot of things before that indicated he would like change, but as is often said, actions speak louder than words. And even if he did, do you really think that someone like Cardinal Mahoney will go along with what he says? I doubt it. He says Los Angleles is fine and has no problems whatsoever.

As far as the rest of the world being happy, look at the figures of church membership in just two staunchly Catholic countries, Mexico and the Philippines. In both of those countries, Catholic conversions to various Protestant sects are increasing rapidly. In Mexico, particularly in the southern areas, entire towns have converted to Protestantism, most of them pentecostal evangelical sects. In the Philippines, the Iglesia movement is getting stronger every day, the Church of New Jerusalems’ membership has exploded and grown tremendously in the last five years and Muslim conversions continue at an unparalled rate. I doubt these these conversions in these two staunchly Catholic(historically) countries, would be at the rate they are if people are truly happy with the Catholic Church and it’s policies, it’s liturgy and its structure.

I’ m sory to be cynical, but it is hard not to. I know that the Church has protection from the Holy Spirit, and will continue and will not fall. But I think that refers to the Mystical Church, to the faith itself, the spiritual church. As for the institutional church as we know it, I just :confused: don’t know.
 
Why should good Pope Benedict do anything with the Mass at all? Based on the response of the bishops at the recent Eucharistic Synod, the liturgical “renewal” or Vatican II is going great! Over the past 40 years, we’ve all witnessed the explosion in vocations, conversions by the millions, reverent and awe-inspiring Masses, sound doctrine being preached from our pulpits…

And so forth.

Who could look at the wonderful renewal of our beloved Church over the past 40 years and not come away inspired, hopeful and confident? The key is for the Pope to not quench the Spirit. He just needs to get out of the way and let the Spirit guide her Church into the brave new Millenium.

Sing a new church into being…la…la…lala… :dancing:
 
I have heard rumors that he will only go so far as to remove some of the abuses that have occurred and ones that have occurred due to a lack of specific clarity.
 
40.png
palmas85:
I wasn’t talking about the Traditional Mass. I know we’re never going back to that. No way no how, it isn’t going to happen. No I was speaking of the Novus Ordo Mass, the way it is currently celebrated. Most people in the Western World, Europe, North America and Australia, etc, are delirious with the way things are. And in actuality since they are the ones where a huge percentage of Romes finances come from 🙂 they are the ones that Rome is going to try to keep happy. Sorry to be cynical, but unless the Holy Father is a lot different than his predecessor, he is not going to rock the boat too much. At least I haven’t seen anything that he has done to indicate it. True he wrote a lot of things before that indicated he would like change, but as is often said, actions speak louder than words. And even if he did, do you really think that someone like Cardinal Mahoney will go along with what he says? I doubt it. He says Los Angleles is fine and has no problems whatsoever.

As far as the rest of the world being happy, look at the figures of church membership in just two staunchly Catholic countries, Mexico and the Philippines. In both of those countries, Catholic conversions to various Protestant sects are increasing rapidly. In Mexico, particularly in the southern areas, entire towns have converted to Protestantism, most of them pentecostal evangelical sects. In the Philippines, the Iglesia movement is getting stronger every day, the Church of New Jerusalems’ membership has exploded and grown tremendously in the last five years and Muslim conversions continue at an unparalled rate. I doubt these these conversions in these two staunchly Catholic(historically) countries, would be at the rate they are if people are truly happy with the Catholic Church and it’s policies, it’s liturgy and its structure.

I’ m sory to be cynical, but it is hard not to. I know that the Church has protection from the Holy Spirit, and will continue and will not fall. But I think that refers to the Mystical Church, to the faith itself, the spiritual church. As for the institutional church as we know it, I just :confused: don’t know.
Click to expand...
I read this article last spring–a real eye opener.

Brazil’s Priests Use Song and Dance To Stem Catholic Church’s Decline

*Brazil is home to more Catholics than any country in the world. But if the evangelical Christian movement continues to spread at the pace it has in recent years, statistics suggest that by 2022 Catholics will be a minority in a country that was about 90 percent Catholic in 1980.

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51511-2005Apr13.html
*
 
I personally doubt it, but I’ll never say never on this topic. There were rumors flying out the windows this past year; e.g. a “general indult” of the TLM and some weird ones going as far as saying that a reformation of the Latin Liturgy would resemble the Eastern liturgies, etc.
 
40.png
awalt:
I have heard rumors that he will only go so far as to remove some of the abuses that have occurred and ones that have occurred due to a lack of specific clarity.
Click to expand...
This is my personal suspicion.

However, what I want is whatever the Holy Spirit wants. I trust Pope Benedict to properly discern the changes desired by the Holy Spirit and I will accept gladly and joyously any change he does or doesn’t make and the timeframe that he chooses to do it.
 
40.png
Orionthehunter:
This is my personal suspicion.

However, what I want is whatever the Holy Spirit wants. I trust Pope Benedict to properly discern the changes desired by the Holy Spirit and I will accept gladly and joyously any change he does or doesn’t make and the timeframe that he chooses to do it.
Click to expand...
Not being a theological expert, I posit this question out of ignorance. Are we, as faithful Catholics, bound to believe that every change the Pope makes re: the Mass is inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Let’s say, for example, that the Pope decides one fine day that every Mass in the world is to henceforth be said only in German. Is the Spirit responsible for this? Or what if the Pope decides, in his wisdom, that every priest must raise their left hand high in the air during the Consecration? Again, Spirit inspired?

Just how do we separate Spirit-inspired disciplinary decisions from the Pope’s personal preference?
 
40.png
Orionthehunter:
This is my personal suspicion.

However, what I want is whatever the Holy Spirit wants. *I trust Pope Benedict to properly discern the changes desired by the Holy Spirit * and I will accept gladly and joyously any change he does or doesn’t make and the timeframe that he chooses to do it.
Click to expand...
This, I don’t understand. Someone reading this line might think that Catholics believe that the pope has a special pipeline to the thoughts of God. The idea that God whispers in the ear of the pope as to liturgical changes or anything else , it just isn’t Catholic.

The popes are all human beings, frail and prone to errors. The dogma of infallibility is just a lot more limited than that.

The next perfect pope will be the first perfect pope, they have all erred, some more so than others.
 
Here’s what I am disappointed in. Pope Benedict stated that promoting the church might require some “pruning.” I’m all for it. I think that the mass has become too “loosey goosey” (is that an ecclesiastical term? ;)) and therefore, I think Rome needs to get some of it’s teeth back. Think about who these bishops are. The majority of them in power now were all ordained during the Vatican II. When a lot of the power of Rome began to wane and control switched more to the laity.

I did not grow up with the TLM, but have attended a few masses over the past few years. I love the idea that, during the centuries before V-II, that if you went to any mass, any where in the world, it was going to be the same! Now, I go into a church, and I have no idea what I am going to get. Will it be a “traditional” NO mass? Will I have an organ, a folk mass, or a mass with electric guitars, bass, and drums? Are we kneeling at the consecration or are we standing? Are we stating our faith through the Nicene Creed or are we not saying it? The Church, IMHO, has become too “protestant” if you will.

My wife is Lutheran. The thing that I do not like about their service, is that every week it’s something different. Sometimes they have communion, sometimes they don’t. Sometimes they have two readings and a Gospel, sometimes they only have one. Now I hear that the Catholic Church is thinking about changing its views on purgatory and its relation to the death of unbaptized babies. I just wish the Pope would bring a little more traditional stance back to the mass. The only problem I see is with the throne in Rome, how do you hold local priests in Anytown, USA accountable to adhere to the dogma set in Rome.
 
Check out the Eastern Christian forum. The Pope is going to re-interpret Vatican II. This could be interesting. I’m surprised no one over here has caught wind of it yet.
 
Dr. Bombay:
Not being a theological expert, I posit this question out of ignorance. Are we, as faithful Catholics, bound to believe that every change the Pope makes re: the Mass is inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Let’s say, for example, that the Pope decides one fine day that every Mass in the world is to henceforth be said only in German. Is the Spirit responsible for this? Or what if the Pope decides, in his wisdom, that every priest must raise their left hand high in the air during the Consecration? Again, Spirit inspired?

Just how do we separate Spirit-inspired disciplinary decisions from the Pope’s personal preference?
Click to expand...
As I understand it, the Holy Father, must state that he is speaking ex cathedra, as the head of the Church and speaking to the whole church on a matter of Faith or Morals. As to whether or not we could be certain of it’s validity, I can only say that such pronouncements have been extremely rare.
 
What I never see mentioned in threads such as this one is that the pope does not operate in a vacuum. He was elected with the clear understanding that he would consult with and listen to his bishops. As does every modern pope. The days of the “imperial” papacy are over.

I must have missed any comment from someone, anyone, who watched the recent film of the bishops meeting; it was obvious that there is huge divide between the bishops. Vigeron who has the heart of a lion struggled mightily in his observation that it appeared some of the bishops were tring to do an end run around JPII statements. Wiegand according to Fr. Corapi was the only bishop to bring up the matter of empasizing the outward signs of respect to the exposed Eucharist and sadly as Fr. Corapi mentioned, it went right by everyone. I watched Bruskewitz and Burke and Chaput all laboring to hold intact the Vatican documents and the instruction from JPII and alternately watched the “plays” of the progressive trying to step around it yet deny they were doing so. Very enlightening. The pope has to be guided heavily by the recommendations from these national councils so what is done or undone at these meetings is critical in his decision making or implementation.

The other point I would make is that in thread after thread I keep reading about the “expectations” of people who think the Pope is going to do this or do that. When in fact, none of us know; expecting him to do specific things which may be near and dear to us can be very disappointing if he does something else. It is really unfair to place our own expectatons on him, when the best thing we can do is offer our support in whatever he chooses to accomplish and realize that like all of us, there are just so many hours in a day, and having to coordinate through so many dicasteries and other members of the hierarchy makes it slow going. He needs our prayer as do all of our bishops. The losers so they improve and the winners so they succeed and stay firm.

As the pope pointed out to us at the funeral of JPII we grow impatient, we want change now, when in fact what we are experiencing is God’s patience with mankind.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top