Will Pope Benedict reform the liturgy?

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JKirkLVNV:
Of course it’s entirely possible that person is tired of hearing posters on this forum denigrate the Pauline Mass. People tend to defend what they love, I’m sure you would agree. I attended a TLM Mass and it WAS mumbled AND that is a common complaint from lots of people who were raised in the pre-conciliar Church. Are they liars? Now, I’ve also attended a handful of abused Pauline Masses and I’ve read enough on these forums to suspect that, in this country at least, this must be fairly widespread. Though I love the Pauline Mass, I won’t call liars those who say they see it abused (I do think the word “abuse” has come to be a handle, however, for things some people don’t like…like the Pauline Mass itself) nor do I normally disparge the TLM. AND, is your indult the TLM or the Pauline Mass in Latin? There is a difference, you know, the silent canon is only TLM, if I understand correctly.

Maybe we could just leave each others masses alone?
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Sure, why not?
I thought you understood. My Mass at my Parish is the tridentine (Indult)
No Indult is required to say the Novus Ordo in Latin.
As A Matter of fact A priest at my Parish just celebrated, A private Requiem at my request. For A good friend. A victim of Katrina.
It was Novus ordo in Latin, ad Orientam, Black mass vestments. Roman Chasuble, (Misnamed Fiddleback,Gasp!!)
Dies Irae, chanted in Plainsong (Gasp!!) As was the In Paradisum (triple Gasp!!)
No Indult required

But i have far more important things to worry about in this post katrina world. I mean I still have holes in the Roof, and I still dont Have A fridge. And basically nothing works in my City. I mean Nothing. But thank God I still have the Mass, Tridentine and Novus Ordo.

In Caritate non Ficta!
 
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mcliffor:
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JKirkLVNV:
So at the age of 19, you think you know better than a Vicar of Christ and the bishops of the world in council together? You wouldn’t have held the council that he deemed fitting and they came to at his call? You don’t think that’s slightly arrogant?
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I don’t think he’s trying to play the role of the Pope, just questioning the effectiveness of the council based on what he sees as negative results.
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Exactly. That post was half a joke anyways. I obviously didn’t actually ask J23 since I’m only 19. And I wasn’t the one that said that the council shouldn’t have been held, the guy posing as him did. Relax. All I have to say about V2 is that IMHO I think that more bad came out of it than good. I think B16 is going to straighten things out though, especially the liturgical discontinuity between the Tridentine and Novus Ordo Masses. By the way, whether I was 19 or 190, I wouldn’t think I was any “better” than anyone. Now, if you’re suggesting that I have an inferior knowledge on these matters simply because of my age, I don’t think you can make that judgement.
 
QUICUMQUE VULT:
But i have far more important things to worry about in this post katrina world. I mean I still have holes in the Roof, and I still dont Have A fridge. And basically nothing works in my City. I mean Nothing. But thank God I still have the Mass, Tridentine and Novus Ordo.

In Caritate non Ficta!
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Yes, thank God. I’ve offered my poor, banal shadow of a mass for the victims of Katrina every day.
 
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mcliffor:
I don’t think he’s trying to play the role of the Pope, just questioning the effectiveness of the council based on what he sees as negative results.
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I quote:

“alright, man, i know you probably didn’t want everything to turn out the way it did, but why’d you have to start that stinkin’ council? all it did was screw stuff up”

The Pope obviously thought there were things that needed to be addressed. I don’t think they call Councils the way we order pizzas.
 
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JSmitty2005:
Exactly. That post was half a joke anyways. I obviously didn’t actually ask J23 since I’m only 19. And I wasn’t the one that said that the council shouldn’t have been held, the guy posing as him did. Relax. All I have to say about V2 is that IMHO I think that more bad came out of it than good. I think B16 is going to straighten things out though, especially the liturgical discontinuity between the Tridentine and Novus Ordo Masses. By the way, whether I was 19 or 190, I wouldn’t think I was any “better” than anyone. Now, if you’re suggesting that I have an inferior knowledge on these matters simply because of my age, I don’t think you can make that judgement.
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The “Spirit” of Vatican II is bad, the council is not. The “spirit” was, IMHO, a product of its time and it influenced people in the Church. We may well have seen the same results (decreased Mass attendance, drop in vocations) had the council not been held. Lots of things got thrown out in the 60’s and the flower children laugh a little ruefully over it. But that isn’t the Council.

I can remember 19. I thought I was a genius. At 43, I realize I was just 19. I merely suggest that you don’t know more than the pope who called the Council (declared blessed by John Paul II) or the bishops who attended it. And you were the one who used the word “stinkin.’”
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Yes, thank God. I’ve offered my poor, banal shadow of a mass for the victims of Katrina every day.
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No one said Your mass that you assist at was banal. I have no way of knowing that. As the Novus Ordo is celebrated differently, from Parish to Parish. (you never know what youre going to get!)
And I have never been to Las Vegas. And Please God, I never will go.

I pity my poor “Freres et Souers” who ended up in that place.
We would have taken Katrina water, rather than that.
 
QUICUMQUE VULT:
No one said Your mass that you assist at was banal. I have no way of knowing that. As the Novus Ordo is celebrated differently, from Parish to Parish. (you never know what youre going to get!)
And I have never been to Las Vegas. And Please God, I never will go.

I pity my poor “Freres et Souers” who ended up in that place.
We would have taken Katrina water, rather than that.
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The city of Las Vegas has assisted the victims who came here. The children of my school, a poor barrio school, raised $1600.00 to send to the victims of the hurricane. Shall I publish your opinion of our city for them to see? Vegas is more than the strip.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
I quote:

“alright, man, i know you probably didn’t want everything to turn out the way it did, but why’d you have to start that stinkin’ council? all it did was screw stuff up”

The Pope obviously thought there were things that needed to be addressed. I don’t think they call Councils the way we order pizzas.
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Like I said above, it was said in a joking manner since I knew the guy obviously wasn’t the former pope! That being said, a council did need to be held to address and evangelize the modern world. The way it turned out, however, was that too many people thought the Church was conforming to the world. Romans 12:2 illustrates this idea perfectly. The Church was trying to “renew its mind,” but many interpreted this as “conforming to the world.” However, John XXIII did take a lot of people by surprise by calling the council as soon as he did, so not all of the participants may not have necessarily been prepared, but obviously the Holy Spirit was and that’s all that matters. I don’t think V2 was heretical or anything (although Nostrae Aetate seems to verge on it 😦 ), I just feel that it was horribly misinterpreted by a vast number of Church leaders.
 
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JSmitty2005:
Like I said above, it was said in a joking manner since I knew the guy obviously wasn’t the former pope! That being said, a council did need to be held to address and evangelize the modern world. The way it turned out, however, was that too many people thought the Church was conforming to the world. Romans 12:2 illustrates this idea perfectly. The Church was trying to “renew its mind,” but many interpreted this as “conforming to the world.” However, John XXIII did take a lot of people by surprise by calling the council as soon as he did, so not all of the participants may not have necessarily been prepared, but obviously the Holy Spirit was and that’s all that matters. I don’t think V2 was heretical or anything (although Nostrae Aetate seems to verge on it 😦 ), I** just feel that it was horribly misinterpreted by a vast number of Church leaders**.
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Then, surprisingly, we agree.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
The “Spirit” of Vatican II is bad, the council is not. The “spirit” was, IMHO, a product of its time and it influenced people in the Church. We may well have seen the same results (decreased Mass attendance, drop in vocations) had the council not been held. Lots of things got thrown out in the 60’s and the flower children laugh a little ruefully over it. But that isn’t the Council.

I can remember 19. I thought I was a genius. At 43, I realize I was just 19. I merely suggest that you don’t know more than the pope who called the Council (declared blessed by John Paul II) or the bishops who attended it. And you were the one who used the word “stinkin.’”
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Remember what Pope Paul VI said, “It is as if from some mysterious crack, no, it is not mysterious, from some crack the smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God.” And I don’t think I’m any genius. “stinking” = the joking/me not being serious thing I was talking about. 👍
 
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JSmitty2005:
Remember what Pope Paul VI said, “It is as if from some mysterious crack, no, it is not mysterious, from some crack the smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God.” And I don’t think I’m any genius. “stinking” = the joking/me not being serious thing I was talking about. 👍
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Was he talking about the “spirit” or the council?
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Then, surprisingly, we agree.
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Yup, I think we do. 🙂 😉 Well, I’ve got to go take an Anatomy & Physiology final, wish me luck!

-Jon
 
A sign from Pope Benedict on the liturgy?

The appointment of the new secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship, Archbishop Malcolm Ranjith, may be a signal of Pope Benedict’s intention on the liturgy. Apparently the archbishop, when he was bishop of a diocese in Sri Lanka, was very favorably inclined toward the Tridentine Mass, and even met with Bernard Fellay, leader of the Society of St. Pius X in 2001.

According to sources, he told Fellay that the crisis of the priesthood is a crisis of the identity of the priest and thus a crisis in the liturgy and that a renewal of the priesthood and of the Church must begin with a renewal of the liturgy.

more…
 
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JSmitty2005:
Yup, I think we do. 🙂 😉 Well, I’ve got to go take an Anatomy & Physiology final, wish me luck!

-Jon
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Finals…I remember those, too. Best of luck.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
The city of Las Vegas has assisted the victims who came here. The children of my school, a poor barrio school, raised $1600.00 to send to the victims of the hurricane. Shall I publish your opinion of our city for them to see? Vegas is more than the strip.
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Sure, publish away! And I will offer my poor “mumbled” Benighted,Centuries Old, Center of the Churches Liturgical life, For Ages, Nurturer of untold millions of Saints and Blessed. Converter of an infinite number of pagans, Tridentine Mass, in Thanksgiving for your generosity and Christian spirit.

Or is that the “Pauline” mass in Latin.
(asks self question) Do I know there is A difference?
 
QUICUMQUE VULT:
Sure, publish away! And I will offer my poor “mumbled” Benighted,Centuries Old, Center of the Churches Liturgical life, For Ages, Nurturer of untold millions of Saints and Blessed. Converter of an infinite number of pagans, Tridentine Mass, in Thanksgiving for your generosity and Christian spirit.

Or is that the “Pauline” mass in Latin.
(asks self question) Do I know there is A difference?
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I don’t think I’ll tell the children. I’m from the South as well and I wouldn’t want them to get the wrong impression of it. Look, I don’t care that you attend the TLM, you or anyone else. I’m just sick of the Mass I love, the normative Mass of the Church, denigrated by Catholics! You people seemingly can’t even talk about the beauty of the TLM *without denigrating the Pauline Mass (“I just find it more reverent,” naturally implying that the Pauline is less *reverent). Do I sound bitter? I am! This was the mass under which I converted, it’s the Mass I attend every day. In my parish, it’s offered with reverence.
 
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=89636

this thread discusses the following story, which I think is relevent to these discussions:

“The appointment of the new secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship, Archbishop Malcolm Ranjith, may be a signal of Pope Benedict’s intention on the liturgy. Apparently the archbishop, when he was bishop of a diocese in Sri Lanka, was very favorably inclined toward the Tridentine Mass, and even met with Bernard Fellay, leader of the Society of St. Pius X in 2001.”
 
Because Fr. Ratzinger saw himself jettisoned from the “liberal” camp into the “conservative” camp within a few years of the council by the sea change that occurred when the “spirit” ran wild, I think he’s being especially attentive to the timing and implementation of any reform he might want introduced. Pope Benedict is too smart to *mandate *something like, say, even minimal use of Gregorian chant when he knows that everything written since and including the council already gives it “pride of place.” Yes, people are ignoring a strong institutional preference. But more importantly their ignoring clear institutional directives. He’ll first try to get people to be obedient to what is already mandatory - curbing abuse - before trying to push any reform measures.

There’s a certain prudence involved in believing that something is true and should be taught while not believing that now is the time to take a firm stand on it. I don’t know if the pope has changed his mind on some of the positions he took as a cardinal, but I suspect that even if he has there might be others that he just feels its not wise to either enforce upon the whole Church or else just not right now.

John Henry Newman is a good example of someone who agreed with a proposition (papal infallibility) but disagreed that the present (the 1870s) was a good time to formulate it in council. Benedict XVI might still support his ideas for liturgical reform but hold a comparable opinion of when they should be carried out. Also, since I wasn’t alive at the time, I can’t speak to the timing of Vatican II. But I do know that, while I think the teachings of Vatican II are valuable, I might question way in which its teachings were disseminated (as far as I can tell, for the longest time this was “not at all”) and interpreted (similarly, rather poorly in some instances), which leads one to wonder not about the value of the council itself but the prudential judgment that surrounded the whole affair.
 
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