Will Pope Benedict reform the liturgy?

[JKirkLVNV]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

In my parish, my pastor would be willing to add a TLM. One of our NO masses would be replaced but even if it is one in a Vicariate, it would work.

“Vicarite!” That’s the word! See, in the absence of a overwhelming “hot spot” of people crying out for the TLM within a diocese, if there ARE scattered people, it could be like one Mass per vicarite, in large dioceses. BTW, back at you.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Ham1:

This is the part I don’t get. You just got through railing on people who don’t respect your preference for the old Roman Rite and now you make a snide backhanded slap at the current liturgy??? If you want some respect, try to give a little, hombre.

You are, of course, correct. I was not slapping the current normative (!) Mass. Merely how it is too often presented in the average American parish.

My position on the new Mass is very simple. If there’s something intrinsically wrong with it, a Mass that has been celebrated by four consecutive Popes and counting, then our Church is in heap big trouble. That’s why I refuse to believe that, in and of itself, there is anything “wrong” with the new Mass. But, since every Mass depends on flawed, frail human beings…well, there’s the issue.

I apologize if anyone thought I was denigrating the current Mass.

 

[otm]

Ham1:

The part above is much to the point and quite well written. It IS totally out of line for people to criticize the old Roman Rite Mass that you love to attend. Rome has indeed spoken and wishes the tradition of this Mass to continue forward.

This is the part I don’t get. You just got through railing on people who don’t respect your preference for the old Roman Rite and now you make a snide backhanded slap at the current liturgy??? If you want some respect, try to give a little, hombre.

Since it seems that people want to take a shot at the statistics I suggested, I have a choice - let it slide or respond.

I did not make the comment about the probable statistics as a shot across anyone’s bow. It was simply an attempt to put into perspective the actual number of Masses said in that rite in any given week, and the number of attendees, as the comment had been made, in enthusiasm, that the poster thought that attendance was a phenomenon involving many, many youth. I was simply pointing out that it involves some youth.

However, as to anyone disparaiging the Tridentine rite, I have seen very little at all in the way of negative remarks about the rite. I have, however, seen lenghty, repeated, and constant remarks negatively about the Pauline rite. It gets to the point that it appears as a constant barrage; claims of abuses, questioning the legitimacy of accepted rubrics, questioning the legitimacy of the rite itself, claims that the tridentine rite is more holy; the list goes on an on.

Perhaps I am privileged, living in one of the most unchurched states in the Union, or perhaps because I live on the West coast, that I see little of the claims being acted out here. It may be that there are other areas of the country that are more prone to experimentation, although in the travels I have made, I certainly have not found it to be so.

So, given the amount of snot that has been expelled concerning the Pauline rite, you will have to excuse me if I am not overly sympathetic to claims of “continually attempting to marginalize people like me who are attached to the old Roman Rite.”. If there has been any marginilization, it has come from the conservative to ultra conservative element who asserts that the Pauline rite is banal at the very minimum, and who exhibits triumphalism and an “I’m holier than thou” attitude in their attitude toward it.

Listening to it reminds me of the group, in music, who disdain at the minimum anything that is not classical. They treat everyone else, those who like jazz, or the blues, or classic rock and roll, or country, or blue grass as at the minimum an uneducated boor who obviously doesn’t get it; and often as something approaching the Neandrethal.

It does get wearisome.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Wouldn’t a seperate rite solve so much?? Why can’t we do that?
I like the stats on the TLM too. They stick the TLM in the Hood in places like MI where the weather can keep you from traveling to the corner store, then scream that only 1% want it. I love when people read the minds of others.

You have to admit, my Dear Friend, that some of the TLM people that come here are not as informed as you are. They bring up the conspiracy theories as fact and then get slammed.
The problem I see is that when the Traditionalists are berated or the traditionalists (note the small "t’), that is perfectly alright. We are beat over the head with calls of being unChristian and assigned a niche of avoiding “Social Christianity” for prayer life. It is accepted here as fact. My parish has eight Advent projects including one for the kids, Visitation Ministry, Berevement Ministry, Welcoming Committee, the list goes on. We are far from lacking in “Social Christianity”. While my parish is not allowed the TLM, my Pastor is one of the Priests in rotation to celebrate at our ONE Indult. If we could get one we would have it.
And while we come onto these boards with those who are into the More Happy Catholic Communities calling us everything from UnChristian because “How could we deny holding hands with another Christian?” or accusing us of labeling every innovation that we hate as an Abuse, we fight here and are dismissed then fight in our parishes then dismissed.

One day it will even out. One day every type of Catholic will be accepted, right now, in some ways people like us are belittled, laughed at and looked down on. Nothing we can do about it, but pray.

I think a personal prelature, along the lines of Opus Dei, should be established for Traditionalists. That way, the bishops get it completely out of their hair. They don’t have to assign priests or other precious diocesan resources. All they have to do is say, “Yes, you can operate in my diocese” or “No, you can’t.” The growth and support of the Traditionalist parishes would be solely on the back of Traditionalists. No more glomming onto NO parishes as a peculiar, and in many cases unwelcome, appendage.

And, yes, some ot the TLM people on this board are…unique. But we have a couple of SSPX “spies” that frequent our indult Mass too. I just smile politely when I come across them, then make a quick excuse to go grab another donut. (Like I really need an “excuse” to grab another donut.)

 

[Dr.Bombay]

JKirkLVNV:

I don’t make any attempt to marginalize "traditionalists. I attempt to defend the legitimately promulgated Mass of the Church. I realize the TLM is also the Mass. I’m sorry, however, it does matter how many attend it, in terms of man power to offer it and resources to house it. If there are too few people who have it, then the bishop has to make a decision. Too few? Then for the few, one spot in a deanery or whatever we call them, once a week, or once every other week, or once a month, depending on the number of the “few.” I personally think our bishop, from what I’ve seen, a good man, should “re-evangelize” the SSPX folks that meet in LV. We *could *actually make an effort for those 75-125 souls (an estimate). Our parish could offer ONE Mass per week for them, at the least (we offer a Polish Mass every week, but that was actively solicited by the Polish community. But should he do the same thing up in Tonapah, a podunk town at the northern edge of the diocese, for the five who want it in a parish of 300? I’m afraid that I think it does matter how many attend, just like the little Anglican-use parish that had to finally be shut down. And John Paul the Great gave permission for the TLM and urged a more generous application (and so I would support that generous application, even if I didn’t respect people like you and Netmil(name removed by moderator), which I incidentally do, because I loved him very much), BUT he left the implementation of it up to the prudential judgement of the bishops. I’m convinced that for some of them it’s snotty mean-spiritedness, but I’m equally convinced that for others, it’s a question of resources.

I can’t speak for LV, of course. But in my diocese, we have an Institute of Christ the King priest as our Latin Mass pastor. We also have a retired diocesan priest who fills in from time to time. Surely there are enough retired priests in most every diocese who might offer a TLM once a week? Even if they had no real attachment to it, as a favor to the bishop don’t you think they’d do it?

But I also tend to trust the bishops on this. They know better than I what they can afford to do in regards to the Mass. Most churches, especially the old drafty ones that still have High Altars, aren’t exactly cheap to heat or cool. While overall I reiterate that statistics shouldn’t be used to judge the “popularity” of a Mass, it still has to be self-supporting from a practical standpoint.

 

[netmilsmom]

Dr. Bombay:

I think a personal prelature, along the lines of Opus Dei, should be established for Traditionalists. That way, the bishops get it completely out of their hair. They don’t have to assign priests or other precious diocesan resources. All they have to do is say, “Yes, you can operate in my diocese” or “No, you can’t.” The growth and support of the Traditionalist parishes would be solely on the back of Traditionalists. No more glomming onto NO parishes as a peculiar, and in many cases unwelcome, appendage.

How do we get this implimented, boss?

 

[Dr.Bombay]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

How do we get this implimented, boss?

Well, from what I understand it took Opus Dei about 12 years from the time the process started to actual implementation. And, I could be wrong, but I believe Opus Dei is the only personal prelature of the Holy See. So the Traditionalists would be the second. And personal prelatures are an idea hatched at the Second Vatican Council, a delicious irony if there ever was one.

The Church thinks in terms of centuries, not years. So this may happen or it may not. And Benedict has a lot on his plate. So even if Traditionalists are .10, or 120 million people strong (as we’ve conclusively demonstrated they are in previous threads), they’re still a relatively minor concern in the grand scheme of the Universal Church.

 

[netmilsmom]

Dr. Bombay:

Well, from what I understand it took Opus Dei about 12 years from the time the process started to actual implementation. And, I could be wrong, but I believe Opus Dei is the only personal prelature of the Holy See. So the Traditionalists would be the second. And personal prelatures are an idea hatched at the Second Vatican Council, a delicious irony if there ever was one.

The Church thinks in terms of centuries, not years. So this may happen or it may not. And Benedict has a lot on his plate. So even if Traditionalists are .10, or 120 million people strong (as we’ve conclusively demonstrated they are in previous threads), they’re still a relatively minor concern in the grand scheme of the Universal Church.

You were suppose to say that it’s already in the works.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

You were suppose to say that it’s already in the works.

Oh.

Well, maybe it is. I know Una Voce was pushing a “Traditional Ordinariate” over a decade ago. Similair thing to a personal prelature from what I gather. Of course, I’m not sure how much cred Una Voce has with the Holy See, for many reasons.

Patience, young Jedi. All things in God’s time.

 

[Adonia]

I would so much like Pope Bennedict to help revive the Tridentine Mass, to help make it more acceptable in parishes again. I recently went to one and found it very fulfilling. It brought back the fond memories I had as when I was a child, hearing the Latin words and smelling the incense again.

 

[palmas85]

JKirkLVNV:

I go to CA at least once a year, I may take you up on it. I’ve thought about going to the Serra Chapel in San Juan for their TLM.

I’d really look forward to meeting you. take care

 

[Sean_O_L]

palmas85 wrote:

The Norbertine Priests are very very good, no mumbling at all. The Bishop recently appointed a new local Priest to help out so things are pretty good here.

And one of the very best of them is Fr. Joe Horn, O.Praem. webmaster of “100% Catholic” Forum at holyjoe.net/phpBB2_new with whom I have had much public and private correspondence over the past eight years.

 

[Sean_O_L]

Here is a short excerpt from one of Fr. Joe Horn’s commentaries on one of his homilies:

Let’s be perfectly clear. I became a high school teacher because I do have compassion for those who are unaware of knowledge that they need. But I have no

compassion for those who are culpably ignorant, or even worse, in a state of heresy, schism, or apostasy. What I have for that is a burning desire to correct it.

From: “I Should Have Walked Out”
A letter received by Father Joe Horn excoriating him for one of his homilies.
Presented here for your edification, entertainment, or thoughts, whichever you prefer.

At http://holyjoe.net/homilies/letters01.html

 

[Ken_Grooms]

totustuusmaria:

He’ll probably reform it; but I doubt he’ll mandate that priests face the east. Last I heard he thought that the current practice had existed too long, and the solution was not to turn back toward the East but to create an ecclesial-east by putting a cross in the centre of the altar; he might encourage them to face the East, though. I think that he will, however, mandate that there always be a cross on the altar, and I think he will draw up reformed rites–that is if he reigns long enough.

Good point. And His Holiness mentions this in the book. Something is about to change. One would be remiss were he to think the Pope content with the current state of the liturgy. In case there’s any doubt that the status quo isn’t cutting it, check out this quote from his new book, Let God’s Light Shine Forth:

“I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves today depends in great part upon the collapse of the liturgy, which at times is actually being conceived etsi Deus non daretur: as though in the liturgy it did not matter anymore whether God exsists and whether He speaks to us and listens to us. But if in the liturgy the communion of faith no longers appears, nor the universal unity of the Church and of her history, nor the mystery of the living Chrict, where is it that the Church still appears in her spiritual strength?..”