Will power v. surrender

[AlanFromWichita]

How does “building up” will power – as in to avoid sin or do planned good works – correlate with “surrendering one’s will” to the Lord?

We use will power to control future events, and we pride ourselves in how strong our will power is and work to become stronger. We use surrender to accept our inability to control the future.

Is there a time for will power and a time for surrender? If so, what would those times be?

Eccl 3:6
A time to seek, and a time to lose;
a time to keep, and a time to cast away.

Well, they aren’t exact, but you could “keep/seek” or “cast away/lose” plans, perhaps? :newidea:

This is not a right/wrong thread. Nor is it a Bad Attitude thread because I’m going to be the Attitude Police on it and I promise I can be the Most Obnoxious if need be.

It is an opinion/reflection thread. You may talk about building up will power, or learning surrender, or comparing them. Or explain why they aren’t comparable. It’s all good as long as it’s all friendly and honest.

Even some humor would be appreciated. Sarcasm won’t be. :tsktsk:

Thank you for reading. I hope you like the thread. :tiphat:

Alan

 

[Pat_Payne]

I have learned – the hard way – that our own will power can never be relied upon when it comes to avoiding sin. Every time I’ve tried to will power my way out of sin, I end up sinning anyway. And the reason for that is this: Think of it as a Chinese finger trap. The more you pull on the trap to get yoru fingers out, the tighter and more inescapable it becomes. But as soon as you stop fighting and instead draw your fingers together, you can escape. That’s surrender. I have a problem with lust and impurity, and recently have started to pray whenever I’m triggered “Lord, I surrender my right to lust after that person to you” and suddenly the urge is lessened. It doesn’t always go away, but if I anxiety and stress over it, or try to will it away, it gets stronger.

Hope this helps!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Think of it as a Chinese finger trap. The more you pull on the trap to get yoru fingers out, the tighter and more inescapable it becomes. But as soon as you stop fighting and instead draw your fingers together, you can escape. That’s surrender.

I think that’s one of the best illustrations of surrender I’ve heard!

Data with Chinese Finger Trap.

I have a problem with lust and impurity, and recently have started to pray whenever I’m triggered “Lord, I surrender my right to lust after that person to you” and suddenly the urge is lessened. It doesn’t always go away, but if I anxiety and stress over it, or try to will it away, it gets stronger.

Surrendering your RIGHT to lust. I love it; it sounds very powerful. To me, that strikes me as if you were bringing God Himself into the “relationship,” and acting on His behalf.

Thank you for joining the thread! :tiphat:

Alan

 

[teenphilo1]

I have the whole ‘spiritual combat’ mentality going, and it works fairly well for the little temptations. But when the Adversary pulls his gloves off, I pull my armor off. (Eph. 6:10-17 reference). I become defenseless as a child and ask God for help. So far it has worked fairly well.

 

[erine]

You just use all your willpower to do God’s will as best you can, and then you also continually surrender it to His will. It’s like a circle

 

[JRKH]

Interesting question.

My first thought was that “will power”, resisting sin, accomplishing the task at hand is "short term…
Surrendering is more long term…

Just a quick thought…

Peace
james

 

[Michael_Mayo]

It takes a will to give it away.

 

[Wiseowl]

Ya got me on this one, I have no idea.

I will leave it up to the more wise men with a bowl on their head.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Why separate will power and surrender? Isn’t it that surrender is the essence of free will?

For example, when I go to church, I surrender the choice to go to the mall, or the arcade, or the library, or anywhere else.

“Surrendering to God” is surrendering to Him everything else and accepting the gift He gave us, which is the present moment, where we are supposed to use our will power.

During her trial, St. Joan of Arc was told by an examiner: “If God wills to save France, it is not necessary to have soldiers.” She answered: “In God’s name the soldiers will fight, and God will give the victory.”

 

[TiggerS]

My life turned a major corner when I first read “Abandonement to Divine Providence”.

All that comes along be it great or very small comes to us through the Will of God, either Direct or Permissive. Some things or situations are to be accepted, others to be worked through. Some to an opportunity to thank and praise The Lord. Some to be challenged etc. etc. etc. This is where I think spiritaul direction can be a major guide, especially if one is having problems discerning what the response called for may be - and is.
Tied in with “Abandonment to Divine Providence”, I have found in later years commentaries on the Exercises of St Ignatius to be of great assistance…and my spiritual director…especially on discerning between a good spirit and a not good spirit at work. How to identify what is taking place in oneself. My director is also quite orientated towards the spirituality of St Ignatius. Although I found the Exercises, before she shared her own orientation with me. She was the novice mistress in her contemplative/active religious order, now she is retired and in her eighties, although she sure does not look it and still certainly has her full mental capacities in every way.

I have never concerned myself with whether it is willpower or surrender or abandonment. I really would not know and am not at all concerned about it. It is whatever - and it is working for me in my personal spiritual life. When I think about it, what exactly is in any word at all? Only what the person stating means by a word used, and how the person hearing definines the same word. They can be rather often not the same at all, although we tend to presume, presume, that they are.

I was having a major problem with a particular person in real life. A very difficult person for me to deal with, though I had to deal with her often. Finally, I found myself angry and at this point, I turned to my director and I was concerned. She helped me work through the anger and the situation itself. And as things have turned out finally, the situation and person is no longer difficult for me - but it took me a while and much support, even understanding, and patience with myself…and trustful confidence in The Lord as I worked though things. And as my director often says “go lightly, go gently” or similar words.

I have a great pal who is Carmelite prioress. I rang her one day and she asked “How are you?”
Me “Yeah, swimming along”
Her “Don’t swim, float”

Now I know what she meant.

 

[ValPal]

How does “building up” will power – as in to avoid sin or do planned good works – correlate with “surrendering one’s will” to the Lord?

We use will power to control future events, and we pride ourselves in how strong our will power is and work to become stronger. We use surrender to accept our inability to control the future.

Is there a time for will power and a time for surrender? If so, what would those times be?

The issue I see with your description is “pride.” Using one’s willpower in a humble way to do what pleases the Lord is surrender. Doing it in a prideful way pleases oneself, not the Lord.

 

[TiggerS]

+JMJ+

Why separate will power and surrender? Isn’t it that surrender is the essence of free will?

For example, when I go to church, I surrender the choice to go to the mall, or the arcade, or the library, or anywhere else.

“Surrendering to God” is surrendering to Him everything else and accepting the gift He gave us, which is the present moment, where we are supposed to use our will power.

During her trial, St. Joan of Arc was told by an examiner: “If God wills to save France, it is not necessary to have soldiers.” She answered: “In God’s name the soldiers will fight, and God will give the victory.”

I love St Joan of Arc. When her inquisitors asked her if she was in the state of Grace, she replied “If I am, then I thank God - and if I am not, then may He please put me there” .

 

[Biblelove13]

I have learned – the hard way – that our own will power can never be relied upon when it comes to avoiding sin. Every time I’ve tried to will power my way out of sin, I end up sinning anyway.

Hope this helps!

You too? Just the other day I was tempted by a donut, and I thought “I’ve had lunch, I’m not hungry, it would be a waste of food”. I left the donut but about five minutes later I ate a Fiberone bar (back in the US now). I realized too late that it was just as bad, because I’d already eaten lunch only minutes ago (less than 45 I think) and here I am being a pig. Food and coffee are always tempting me

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

My life turned a major corner when I first read “Abandonement to Divine Providence”.

All that comes along be it great or very small comes to us through the Will of God, either Direct or Permissive. Some things or situations are to be accepted, others to be worked through. Some to an opportunity to thank and praise The Lord. Some to be challenged etc. etc. etc. This is where I think spiritaul direction can be a major guide, especially if one is having problems discerning what the response called for may be - and is.
Tied in with “Abandonment to Divine Providence”, I have found in later years commentaries on the Exercises of St Ignatius to be of great assistance…and my spiritual director…especially on discerning between a good spirit and a not good spirit at work. How to identify what is taking place in oneself. My director is also quite orientated towards the spirituality of St Ignatius. Although I found the Exercises, before she shared her own orientation with me. She was the novice mistress in her contemplative/active religious order, now she is retired and in her eighties, although she sure does not look it and still certainly has her full mental capacities in every way.

I have never concerned myself with whether it is willpower or surrender or abandonment. I really would not know and am not at all concerned about it. It is whatever - and it is working for me in my personal spiritual life. When I think about it, what exactly is in any word at all? Only what the person stating means by a word used, and how the person hearing definines the same word. They can be rather often not the same at all, although we tend to presume, presume, that they are.

I was having a major problem with a particular person in real life. A very difficult person for me to deal with, though I had to deal with her often. Finally, I found myself angry and at this point, I turned to my director and I was concerned. She helped me work through the anger and the situation itself. And as things have turned out finally, the situation and person is no longer difficult for me - but it took me a while and much support, even understanding, and patience with myself…and trustful confidence in The Lord as I worked though things. And as my director often says “go lightly, go gently” or similar words.

I have a great pal who is Carmelite prioress. I rang her one day and she asked “How are you?”
Me “Yeah, swimming along”
Her “Don’t swim, float”

Now I know what she meant.

It was also through “Abandonment of Divine Providence” that I finally understood the oneness of surrender and free will. I love how it spoke of the “Sacrament of the Present Moment”, in which you partake of the Lord by being present in the “now” of every duty in life and letting everything else be handled by Him

I love St Joan of Arc. When her inquisitors asked her if she was in the state of Grace, she replied “If I am, then I thank God - and if I am not, then may He please put me there” .

I love her too. Just a couple of years ago I never looked at her with more than an blink, but when I read about her, oh my goodness I fell in love with her.

She was a woman who really used the charms given to her by God to lead men to Him. A man testified that “she tapped me on the shoulder, saying that she would like to have a few men of my sort with her.” She called Duke d’Alençon “gentle duke” and “pretty duke”. She cried after every battle, cradling even the enemies that lay dieing on the battlefield. And all that stuff. And yet she rode and fought without complaints alongside her men, even in battle armor, riding for days sometimes. And she was the best cannon field artillery battlemaster of France of her day. No wonder when her battlecry was raised, “Let all who love me – follow me!” men really followed her because of love and admiration!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Ya got me on this one, I have no idea.

I will leave it up to the more wise men with a bowl on their head.

+JMJ+

Why separate will power and surrender? Isn’t it that surrender is the essence of free will?

For example, when I go to church, I surrender the choice to go to the mall, or the arcade, or the library, or anywhere else.

“Surrendering to God” is surrendering to Him everything else and accepting the gift He gave us, which is the present moment, where we are supposed to use our will power.

During her trial, St. Joan of Arc was told by an examiner: “If God wills to save France, it is not necessary to have soldiers.” She answered: “In God’s name the soldiers will fight, and God will give the victory.”

I think you are making a great point. In the Grand Scheme, surrender and free will aren’t necessarily an either/or proposition – except of course to our egos which like to feel in control.

The issue I see with your description is “pride.” Using one’s willpower in a humble way to do what pleases the Lord is surrender. Doing it in a prideful way pleases oneself, not the Lord.

I like that way of looking at it.

Thank you all for such great posts! :tiphat:

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I have never concerned myself with whether it is willpower or surrender or abandonment. I really would not know and am not at all concerned about it. It is whatever - and it is working for me in my personal spiritual life. When I think about it, what exactly is in any word at all? Only what the person stating means by a word used, and how the person hearing definines the same word. They can be rather often not the same at all, although we tend to presume, presume, that they are.

You are exactly right. Words are but symbols that represent ideas, and how those symbols and encoded and decoded makes all the difference. Also, the messages we get from other humans all require some degree of empathy to correctly interpret.

Alan

 

[TiggerS]

You are exactly right. Words are but symbols that represent ideas, and how those symbols and encoded and decoded makes all the difference. Also, the messages we get from other humans all require some degree of empathy to correctly interpret.

Alan

I agree with you, Alan. I just wrote a post and lost it and" redo nor undo" would not reinstate it - I will return at some later date and try again to state my understandings of willpower, surrender and abandonment as individual concepts with different meanings - although to my mind, they speak to each other as it were.

 

[TiggerS]

I agree with you, Alan. I just wrote a post and lost it and" redo nor undo" would not reinstate it - I will return at some later date and try again to state my understandings of willpower, surrender and abandonment as individual concepts with different meanings - although to my mind, they speak to each other as it were.

My attempt:
Willpower is that ability to dictate and cotrol the choices of the will. The will very often can want to run after feelings or thoughts and put into action what the latter want. When one has power over the will (and never ever control to perfection) in the main, the self decides and informs the will what action to take, rather than the will being the continual slave of feelings and thoughts. The self, that intangible someone, is the master. It is Grace alone that empowers the self to choose good and to have mastery over the will.

Mastery of the will by the self orientated to good can never be achieved without some form of asceticism or exercises in self discipline by acts going against feelings and/or thoughts (acts of penance) - asceticism is training of the will to do what it is told as it were and by the self, rather than being the slave of feelings and thoughts. Nothing good be it great or small can ever be achieved without the Grace to do so. Hence to The Lord all glory and thanks rightly and justly belongs and in absolutely all circumstances, no exceptions.

However, miracles of Grace can always occur in all things - and miracles contradict our concepts of how reality acts or flows, progresses,should progress…cause and effect.

Surrender to the Will of God are acts of carrying out the will of God in some act in thought word or deed.

Abandonment is a continual disposition of surrendering to the Will of God, both direct and permissive, in all things; however, we remain always sinners somewhere and to some degree. Perfection is for Heaven alone! At first abandonment is a conscious exercise and it may be often a difficult one - with perseverence and as always the Grace of God, it can become an habitual and constant disposition and with little or no conscious thought the self is orientated to God’s Will be it His Direct Will or His Permissive Will. At first, one, may need to reflect, even seek advice, about what IS God’s Will in a certain situation or situations - and this may be laborious, laboured. With perseverance and God’s Grace, trusting Him, it can become indeed an almost continual disposition, an orientation to God’s Will with little and sometimes no prethought nor reflection. We remain sinners somewhere or other and to some degree - we only ever arrive to depart - in the journey of life we never ever arrive FULL STOP. As long as we are this side of Heaven anyway.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I agree with you, Alan. I just wrote a post and lost it and" redo nor undo" would not reinstate it - I will return at some later date and try again to state my understandings of willpower, surrender and abandonment as individual concepts with different meanings - although to my mind, they speak to each other as it were.

Aargh! I hate it when that happens! :banghead:

Maybe the Holy Spirit wanted to give you an example of a post that you had to surrender to the digital gods!

I read your other post, but don’t have time to reply right now in detail… will be baaack!

Alan

 

[Lady_Love]

When I was a child I had a very strong will. I was stubborn, competitive, and determined. I did exactly what I wanted and used every opportunity to use my freedom. No one took anything from me, I gave it away. I did nothing that I did not want to do. My parents dealt with me very differently than my siblings. My Father dared not challenge me too much because I would assert my freedom and do the exact opposite. Rather, he consulted me, questioned me and respected my reason and freedom. He taught me how to make the right decisions and assert my will in a healthy fashion. As a result, I chose not to party in high school, drink or do drugs. I chose not to watch T.V. in junior high, I chose to home school my last two years of high school and I CHOSE TO BE IN A DEEP COMMITTED RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS.

Once I truly chose a relationship with Jesus, we set out on a journey of surrendering my freedom to choose my future. I have literally been moved out of situations that I really wanted to be in. I was not in control of my self. A power greater than myself moved my legs and made them walk. There have also been times when I could not move even if I wanted to. All energy would leave my body. At these times God protected me from hurtful or dangerous situations. Sometimes, I would get so angry with God that I couldn’t do as I pleased. But at the same time feeling safe that I couldn’t.

It makes me think of when I was a little girl going on the big ship at the carnival. It was fun at first but when it swung real high and would fall, it would tickle my belly so much it was painful and terrifying. My Dad had to hold on to me for dear life (he was afraid he was going to break my bones) because I was scrambling with all my might to jump off the ship.

Surrender I believe is when I no longer fight or resist God. There is a scripture in Proverbs, “Many are the plans in the mind of a man but it is the will of God that is established.”

A definition I heard of surrender was this, “giving someone the POWER to hurt you but trusting that they won’t.” It is true too, God NEVER hurts us, He only heals us. Jesus is the perfect example: rather than allow us to suffer the full measure of our sins, He takes it on Himself. He suffers in our place. He takes on OUR death and in return gives us His life/His blood.

I belong to God, He purchased me with His own blood. I no longer have any rights over my life. He gave me Himself. So, I reciprocate that love with the gift of my self. What’s His is mine and what is mine is His. It’s hardly a fair exchange. God gets my pain and suffering and I get His peace and glory. I guess if it is justice in His eyes, it is in mine as well. Amen.