Will Protestantism divide until it fails ultimately?

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GKC said:
Books?

If not, ok. I probably know more on the subject than anyone within a radius of 100 yards, but it doesn’t interest me a lot.

GKC
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If there is proof that supports the idea that the Anglican church existed before King Henry VIII, then I would like to check it out, just for the heck of it. 👍
 
I just don’t understand the point of these centuries old debates. I attend but am not a member of any church save that of the body of Christ. As a “catastrophically disabled” veteran I live an incredibly difficult life. Due to a spinal cord injury I am in constant pain and the damage to a leg nerve bundle makes walking incredibly difficult. But I praise God that I can still walk and try my best to serve as Jesus taught us.

The VA performed neurosurgery and it took about 18 months to figure out the best prescription cocktail the doctors could find to get me out of my wheelchair and walking again. Praise God. About two weeks ago there was a mix up with my balanced list of meds and it sent my brain and body reeling. I won’t begin to describe the H*** that my body went through. I knew I was beyond anything I could do for myself so I prayed to God saying, “Lord I’m a mess and I need help.” It was later that day that somebody I haven’t seen in a month dropped by out of the blue. And that was just the start of believers calling to help me get the support and other help I needed. I even got a call from a VA social worker to see how I’m doing and I now have an appointment with the VA spinal cord unit for this Thursday.

I recall a quote that some may know who said it, “Why can’t we all just get along?” Please.

So I will leave off with this, when I prayed for help neither the Trinity or Mary asked me what my denomination was. Praise God.
 
joe370 said:
If there is proof that supports the idea that the Anglican church existed before King Henry VIII, then I would like to check it out, just for the heck of it. 👍
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Be clear on what is being said in my posts. One point is that the earliest scholarly evidence for the existence of an organized Church in the Isles is in the 200s. There is no adjective in front of “Church”.

The other point relates to the pious legends that date well back into the 600s-700s (if not earlier) centering on the idea that Joseph of Arimathea brought the Church ( and a lot of other people/things) to England either as early as 36 AD or, more likely, 63 AD. This idea (which did not originate with Henry’s times, it was often advanced to make the claim that England, not France, was the first daughter of the Church), mixed in with the idea of the Celtic Church, are often used by some Anglicans as an argument that the Church (not Roman, just the Church) was present in England that early, brought by Apostolic hands, and shows a separate origin (ab initio) for the Church in England, not originating from Rome.

If interested, try Harvey/TO THE ISLES AFAR OFF or Lewis/ST.JOSEPH OF ARIMATHEA AT GLASTONBURY. There are other titles, but I think those two are likely still in print.

Me, I’m not greatly interested. But if you look into it, let me know if it is proof, for you.

GKC
 
GKC said:
Be cleaer on what is being said in my postgs. One point is that the earliest scholarly evidence for the existence of an organised Church in teh Isles is in the 200s. There is no adjective in front of “Church”.

The other point relates to the pious legends that date well back into the 600s-700s (if not earlier) centering on the idea that Joseph of Arimathea brought the Church ( and a lot of other people/things) to England either as earlier as 36 AD or more likely, 63 AD. This idea (which did not originate with Henry’s times, it was often advanced to make the claim that England, not France, was the first daughter of the Church), mixed in with the idea of the Celtic Church, are often used by some Anglicans as an argument that the Church (not Roman, just the Church) was present in England that early, brought by Apostolic hands, and shows a separate origin (ab initio) for the Church in England, not originating from Rome.

If interested, try Harvey/TO THE ISLES AFAR OFF or Lewis/ST.JOSEPH OF ARIMATHEA AT GLASTONBURY. There are other titles, But I think those two are likely still in print.

Me, I’m not greatly interested.

GKC
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👍
 
Simeon_Hovey said:
I just don’t understand the point of these centuries old debates. I attend but am not a member of any church save that of the body of Christ. As a “catastrophically disabled” veteran I live an incredibly difficult life. Due to a spinal cord injury I am in constant pain and the damage to a leg nerve bundle makes walking incredibly difficult. But I praise God that I can still walk and try my best to serve as Jesus taught us.

The VA performed neurosurgery and it took about 18 months to figure out the best prescription cocktail the doctors could find to get me out of my wheelchair and walking again. Praise God. About two weeks ago there was a mix up with my balanced list of meds and it sent my brain and body reeling. I won’t begin to describe the H*** that my body went through. I knew I was beyond anything I could do for myself so I prayed to God saying, “Lord I’m a mess and I need help.” It was later that day that somebody I haven’t seen in a month dropped by out of the blue. And that was just the start of believers calling to help me get the support and other help I needed. I even got a call from a VA social worker to see how I’m doing and I now have an appointment with the VA spinal cord unit for this Thursday.

I recall a quote that some may know who said it, “Why can’t we all just get along?” Please.

So I will leave off with this, when I prayed for help neither the Trinity or Mary asked me what my denomination was. Praise God.
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Man, I am so sorry for all the pain you are going through! You will be in my prayers for sure. 🙂
 
Hi, Simeon Hovey,

First of all, thank you for the service you gave to our country. I am very happy that the VA doctors were able to help but so very sorry to hear of your on-going pain. My wife and I will keep you in our prayers.

The quote came from Rodney King.

I really think that we are all required to make an honest assessment of what God wants us to do. For me, Christ founded His Church on Peter and anything that varies from this is in error. Every other religion was founded by a man. Christ is True God and True Man. This is as straight-forward as I can be.

God bless
Simeon_Hovey said:
I just don’t understand the point of these centuries old debates. I attend but am not a member of any church save that of the body of Christ. As a “catastrophically disabled” veteran I live an incredibly difficult life. Due to a spinal cord injury I am in constant pain and the damage to a leg nerve bundle makes walking incredibly difficult. But I praise God that I can still walk and try my best to serve as Jesus taught us.

The VA performed neurosurgery and it took about 18 months to figure out the best prescription cocktail the doctors could find to get me out of my wheelchair and walking again. Praise God. About two weeks ago there was a mix up with my balanced list of meds and it sent my brain and body reeling. I won’t begin to describe the H*** that my body went through. I knew I was beyond anything I could do for myself so I prayed to God saying, “Lord I’m a mess and I need help.” It was later that day that somebody I haven’t seen in a month dropped by out of the blue. And that was just the start of believers calling to help me get the support and other help I needed. I even got a call from a VA social worker to see how I’m doing and I now have an appointment with the VA spinal cord unit for this Thursday.

I recall a quote that some may know who said it, “Why can’t we all just get along?” Please.

So I will leave off with this, when I prayed for help neither the Trinity or Mary asked me what my denomination was. Praise God.
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Hi, DaddyGirl,

Interesting.

Now, tell me, how do you explain Matthew 16 and the Early Church Fathers - all pointing to the Catholic Church as Divinely established and protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error.

And, in your enthusiasm for answering that - do yu have a link about this Egyptian monk?

As a general statement - people have done strange things since the beginning of history - but the fact that they have done these strange things does not necessarily mean the main group is somehow in error. It really does not make any difference what type of group you are talking about - there will always be stangeness. But, for the most part, it is not the tail that wags the dog.

God bless
DaddyGirl said:
Many consider the Catholic religion to be very much a man-made religion; and many consider all the Protestant religions as inspired and led by the Spirit of God.

That Egyptian monk who was found a century ago, buried with all those banned sacred texts against his chest–the sacred books that had been banned 600 years before his own death. There must be some good reason why someone took great care to preserve those books over the centuries…and then, that this monk would wish to go into the afterlife with these sacred texts pressed close to his heart.

Perhaps all these Protestant religions are trying to find it.
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Hi, DaddyGirl,

Thanks for the link, I’ll check it out tomorrow.

Yes, “…you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church…” is what I had in mind - but, please look at the entire chapter so there are no context issues.

You have come up with quite a theory … and one that I would suggest you look at some references to back this up.
DaddyGirl said:
Re Matthew 16…do you mean the “you are Peter…” scene?
(if so, I will re-read and get back to you)

I didn’t say the Catholic church is in “error” exactly…I do think, though, that perhaps all the religions based on Jesus are slightly, um…not exactly what He intended.
I have read many, many history books on the topic of early Christianity in those first few hundred years…of the different Christian groups, and how the bible was put together in the 4th Century and by whom and why, and how the doctrines evolved…enough to understand that much happened along the way to…tamper…with words and events.
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Now, you really are suggesting fraud on a major scale. So, while you want to dance around saying the the Cathoic Church is in error… you have no problem in hinting about this… 😃 If there was wide-spread mischief in producing the Bible - beginning with Constintine and those curious Early Church Fathers - we have the steady corruption of Scripture! God’s inerrant word has been exposed to be … quite in error. You just can’t trust those Catholics!

But, wait, the fraud does not end there … in the 16th Century there was this major revolt - and except for the 7 books that Luther & Co. determined were not inspired - the rest of the fraudulent Bible was accepted. Could it be that everyone from the 4th Century on has been duped? It must be - after all, you have presented such an excellent argument that simply shatters the fantasy of “Holy” Scripture - there is nothing holy about fraud, now is there? :eek:

Of course there is the idea that God is All Mighty - and despite all the mischief of sinful men - He managed to get His message through all of the writers and copy writers. There are no original manuscripts to be examined - everything we have (old as it is) is just a copy! I submit that God’s Word in truly without error and His Word has been faithfully passed on with the assurance of the Catholic Church that the Books of the Bible are Divinely Inspired. Interestingly enough virtually all Protestant groups accept the Catholic Bible - but they removed 7 inspired books from the OT. All of the NT is the same for Catholics and Protestants.

So, here is the challenge: either defend your position that the Bible has error in it - or - find a nice way to back out of this truly evil accusation. There is no way to smear the Catholic Church without smearing all of Christianity.

God bless
 
Hi, DaddyGirl,

I just read the link you provided (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter ) and I must say, compared to your rather graphic and animated description … here I am envisioning your words to mean that this old monk was embracing this Gnostic work or fiction and holding it to his heart as he breathed his last… cue the violins…:rolleyes: You know, wiki is rather drab: “burried respectfully” is as close as wiki got… 😃

The beinning of this link clearly identifies that the ‘Gospel of Peter’ found in Egypt was the same presented in 400 to the Catholic Church and determined to NOT be Divinely Inspired and was not put into the Canon of Sacred Scripture. So, either the Holy Spirit kept Faith and prevented the Catholic Church from putting in a un-inspired book - or all of this nonsense about the ‘inerrant word of God’ has no meaning at all. There is no middle ground here, DaddyGirl. Either God kept His Word that the Catholic Church can teach no error - or all is a fraud. Take your pick.

God bless
DaddyGirl said:
That monk…the famous one who had the Gospel of Peter, among others, buried with his body.
Here’s a bit on wiki:
**
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter**

Re Matthew 16…do you mean the “you are Peter…” scene?
(if so, I will re-read and get back to you)

I didn’t say the Catholic church is in “error” exactly…I do think, though, that perhaps all the religions based on Jesus are slightly, um…not exactly what He intended.
I have read many, many history books on the topic of early Christianity in those first few hundred years…of the different Christian groups, and how the bible was put together in the 4th Century and by whom and why, and how the doctrines evolved…enough to understand that much happened along the way to…tamper…with words and events.

Like: Decades of oral storytelling, politics, transcribing problems, creative copyists, varied interpretations, banning of important books, power struggles, questionable translations, factual discrepancies, anonymous writers,…to me, it all adds up to show that all likely isn’t quite as it seems, or as written.

As a journalist myself, I can tell you this one truth: I can interview someone and write it up an hour later…and it still won’t be quite accurate! Even if I use a tape recorder! There will still be my own views and feelings and bias meshed into the facts.

That whole issue over the addition of Mark 16:9-20, for example, that it was not in the original text…and the addition of the “he without sin cast the first stone” part in John’s gospel which wasn’t in the earlier manuscripts of the canon but added by scribes later…just two examples that make me look at all the stories and quotes in the canon with a very, very, VERY careful, investigative eye.

I can go into more detail on this, but it would be veering too far off topic I think?
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Hi, Aefensang,

Interesting. So, are you saying that 2Peter 1:20 is saying it is perfectly acceptable for people to coming up with their own personal interpretation of what Scripture says and means? I think this is the heart of the matter. And, the reason for this is that the ‘…true classical unified Protestant Christian…’ is a fantasy because of this personal interpretation.

For example, there is no unified concept in Protestantism about the necessity for Baptism. Some say it is necessary, some say it is not, some say it is merely a sign that is optional - and while Anglicans believe Baptism is necessary - no generalization can be made as to other Protestant groups. This is no accident, or some sort of oddity - this is the standard: we all are free to interpret Scripture as we please. The results of this chaos are all around you.

There is no doubt that having a godly and educated Bishop is to be desired - God help those who face one who isn’t! :eek: But, think back to one of the most exceptionally godly and learned Early Church Fathers - the famous Bishop of Hippo, Augustine. He kniew he was not infallible - this was reserved for the Bishop of Rome. catholicfaithandreason.org/papal-infallibility.html

All we can say is that Christ determined how He would establish His Church - and He really did establish it on Peter - not on the 12. There were not 12 heads, but only 1 and He was the one entrusted with the Keys. The other 11 are not recorded as having murmured about this selection or to have gotten duplicate sets of keys made!

God bless

QUOTE=Aefensang;9668183]Just a little bit of information from a great Protestant, a valued brother, on the meaning of 2 Peter 1:20.

True classical unified Protestant Christians say we need godly teachers! Even the Baptist chapel appoints a teacher, a pastor. The difference between we Anglicans (the only protestants I can speak for) and Catholics is that we say a godly, educated bishop is a great authority, while he is not ever counted infallible, by himself or in a council. 👍
 
tqualey said:
Hi, Simeon Hovey,

First of all, thank you for the service you gave to our country. I am very happy that the VA doctors were able to help but so very sorry to hear of your on-going pain. My wife and I will keep you in our prayers.

The quote came from Rodney King.

I really think that we are all required to make an honest assessment of what God wants us to do. For me, Christ founded His Church on Peter and anything that varies from this is in error. Every other religion was founded by a man. Christ is True God and True Man. This is as straight-forward as I can be.

God bless
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Thank you for your words of support.

As to the centuries old debate between Catholicism and Protestants I’ll just say that when I was a very young man I wanted to travel, see the world, have adventures, go to war and fight just like my father did in WWII. And, I believe, because of the sins I was going to commit my wish was granted. So I got a bellyful of what I’d wished for and hope that someday no one will ever want to go through these things again. But this takes me back to the original question: Why can’t we all get along?

As to this thread it is my hope that it’s another of God’s ways of providing paths to the Truth the way and the life. Amen.
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