Will Protestants go through purgatory?

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rinnie said:
Catholic teaching is Salvation is from Jesus Christ. Without him no entrance into heaven is possible.

The Church does not teach you can enter heaven without accepting Jesus Christ.
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You guy are totally confusing me. It appears some Catholics believe that there is hope for some who die without accepting Christ. It appears you are saying the Church teaches that faith in Christ (includes good works kind of faith) is necessary to enter Heaven. :confused:
 
Okay, this is getting way too much for me to participate right now. We can discuss this stuff later. I want to start a thread on what Protestants have in common with Catholics. Please share if time permits.
 
Christian_Unity said:
Luther was right on Faith Alone according to the Pope… Catholic source

justforcatholics.org/benedict_justification.htm
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Justforcatholics either doesn’t understand Catholic teachings or is intentionally oblivious which breaks the 8th commandment. You have to the read the entirety of the zenit article including:
we now consider his teaching on our justification. Paul’s experience of the Risen Lord on the road to Damascus led him to see that it is only by faith in Christ, and not by any merit of our own, that we are made righteous before God
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The words in bold are Catholic doctrine. As are these words:
** "For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law**As are these words:

That is why, in the Letter to the Galatians, St. Paul develops above all his doctrine on justification;** he speaks of faith that operates through charity** (cf. Galatians 5:14). Have to remember that Luther looked in a Catholic book and found a Catholic doctrine…that we are justified by faith…through grace…but also one that operates through charity.

Now, back to that Purgatory thing…nothing unclean can enter heaven…neither Catholic, nor catholic.
 
rinnie said:
Catholic teaching is Salvation is from Jesus Christ. Without him no entrance into heaven is possible.

The Church does not teach you can enter heaven without accepting Jesus Christ.
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This is true but to a deeper meaning. We know that, since salvation must necessarily be universal, all will be given at one point the possibility of accepting Jesus as the Son of God and Savior. We don’t know how that’s going to happen for non-Christians, but we know it is going to happen 🤷 Otherwise either God is extremely unfair towards billions of people, or salvation is not through Christ…and both are absurdly, irrationally false statements.
 
Christian_Unity said:
You guy are totally confusing me. It appears some Catholics believe that there is hope for some who die without accepting Christ. It appears you are saying the Church teaches that faith in Christ (includes good works kind of faith) is necessary to enter Heaven. :confused:
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Christian Unity, Look there is no one who can enter heaven without accepting Jesus Christ. Period.

But there are some who as discussed who either do not know him who through NO FAULT of their own do not know him. Lets stop there, if they don’t know him how can they accept him. But we believe that when someone dies they meet Jesus. Period.

Now they either accept him or reject him. If they reject him they reject God and cannot enter heaven.

If they accept him they accept God and enter heaven.

Babies we believe enter heaven because scripture tells us heaven is made of these. We believe God knows a heart of even a baby and if that baby is one of Gods children they get in. Thats the easiest way I can explain it.
 
R_C said:
This is true but to a deeper meaning. We know that, since salvation must necessarily be universal, all will be given at one point the possibility of accepting Jesus as the Son of God and Savior. We don’t know how that’s going to happen for non-Christians, but we know it is going to happen 🤷 Otherwise either God is extremely unfair towards billions of people, or salvation is not through Christ…and both are absurdly, irrationally false statements.
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Exactly. Like many accept God the God of Abraham, but do not see Jesus as this same person. Its like saying if they can’t see it then its not true. Of course not.

The truth is Jesus Christ is indeed God. People who can’t truly see it now, we believe will at some point of their lives. Some it may be the very end, Who Knows.

But the point Jesus is indeed God and Salvation is through him.
 
Christian_Unity said:
Okay, this is getting way too much for me to participate right now. We can discuss this stuff later. I want to start a thread on what Protestants have in common with Catholics. Please share if time permits.
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If you continue with a heart and mind open to seeking the Truth concerning Christ’s revelation to His Apostolic Church, you will end up with not just part of Christ’s Truth but the whole of it.:)Welcome, to these forums and may God bless you abundantly with his
Truth. Carlan
 
Christian_Unity said:
Pretty fun stuff. In Heaven, I really don’t believe Christians will be divided between Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox communities. I still plan to skip purgatory. Which doctrines really matter in this divided temporal world of Christendom? We share the historic ecumenical creeds like the Apostles and Nicene Creeds. Didn’t the Pope say that Luther was right in regards to Faith alone a few years back? Yep… I do believe in Christian Unity.
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Oh, Lordy we’re still a stiff necked people after all these years! I’m sitting here cracking up imagining you standing before judgement explaining to God why you “plan” on skipping purgatory! I imagine He’s going to be rather amused at your plans!

I get why you say so. I speak evangelical! You’re banking on the idea that Jesus died as the final sacrifice which washed away all our sins. You believe that the righteousness of Christ is like a pure white garment that he grants us to cover over our sinfulness so that when God looks at you, He sees only the righteousness of Christ, not the sins of you. I also know you can probably sling a dozen or so verses to back up these notions.

The problem is in the thousands of verses you choose NOT to whip out that clearly affirm that your actions in life are inseparable from your alleged faith. You’re right and catholics agree that salvation can’t be earned and righteousness can’t be achieved apart from Grace. You’re wrong that Christ merely “covers” your sins. You WON’T find that in the bible. The blood of Christ actually washes AWAY those sins, not covers them. By the time you enter heaven, you won’t be merely declared righteous by some divine legal trick, nor will your free will have been stripped away so that you are unable to sin (like a puppet). You will BE righteous in that with your free will still intact, sin will be as repugnant to you as it is to God. You won’t have made it there on your strength, but it’s not a magic elevator ride either. It’s a series of choices to accept Grace and reject sin repeated over and over until you really understand what sin IS and are repelled by it. Won’t THAT be a great day? Can you honestly say you’re there right now? You’re no longer tempted to do wrong, you never fall into ANY sins anymore? Probably not. So if you’re killed right now and enter heaven as-is, but “covered” by righteousness is it really heaven anymore? No. By definition, heaven can’t have any selfishness, pride, lust, anger, sloth, etc. Purgatory is just the word catholics put on what happens in between the time you die and the time you truly enter heaven. It’s when you allow God to finish the job and make you not just declared righteous, but actually righteous.

As for the pope’s comments on Luther, you have to read them carefully. The pope did indeed affirm that Luther’s controversial addition of the word “alone” into the “faith alone” passage had some merit in the intricacies of the German language used at the time by Luther. This is NOT the same as endorsing the modern American evangelical notion of “Faith Alone” that is sometimes defined as meaning “your actions in life are irrelevant, only faith matters.”
 
rinnie said:
But there are some who as discussed who either do not know him who through NO FAULT of their own do not know him. Lets stop there, if they don’t know him how can they accept him. But we believe that when someone dies they meet Jesus. Period.

Now they either accept him or reject him. If they reject him they reject God and cannot enter heaven.

If they accept him they accept God and enter heaven.
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Umm… hold on. I know that some theologians have speculated about this, or even about what might happen at the moment of death in general. However, what you’ve written here isn’t Church teaching. If you think that it is, though, you have something that backs up what you’ve written, I hope, that you’d be willing to share with us? 😉
Babies we believe enter heaven because scripture tells us heaven is made of these.
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???
We believe God knows a heart of even a baby and if that baby is one of Gods children they get in.
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Umm… no. We entrust the souls of babies who die without baptism to God, trusting in his goodness and mercy. Again, we don’t know the answer to the question “how does it happen?”…
 
Gorgias said:
Umm… hold on. I know that some theologians have speculated about this, or even about what might happen at the moment of death in general. However, what you’ve written here isn’t Church teaching. If you think that it is, though, you have something that backs up what you’ve written, I hope, that you’d be willing to share with us? 😉

???

Umm… no. We entrust the souls of babies who die without baptism to God, trusting in his goodness and mercy. Again, we don’t know the answer to the question “how does it happen?”…
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What does us not knowing about what the mercy of God is or how it happens have to do with my saying that as Catholics we believe that God knows a heart, and by knowing the heart and soul of a baby chooses if a baby will or will not be welcome into heaven.

We as Catholics are free to rely and believe in Gods mercy that baby’s can indeed get into heaven. And where does it go against church teaching to say that God knows a heart?

1 Sam 16:7 God knows a heart, Where does that go against Catholic teaching to say there is no existance of time in the world of Christ and he knows the heart of a Child the same as an adult?

I choose to believe that because God knows the heart and soul of a Child and because I choose to rely on his mercy it is quite possible and probable to say a Child can enter heaven. So please show me where this is NOT church teaching?

And it Is Church teaching at the moment of our death Christ reveals himself to us. It is at that moment he chooses who does or does not enter heaven. With that said where does it go against Church teaching to say not all will have it revealed until the last day.

Many Jews cannot see that Christ is the true Messiah.Many will not see it until the last day, many come to see it everyday, according to the grace of God. But the point is it is revealed to people when God chooses to reveal it to them.

But the point is when it is revealed to you who Christ is, and that grace is given to you it is then you can reject it or accept it. Where does that go against Church teaching?
 
rinnie said:
What does us not knowing about what the mercy of God is or how it happens have to do with my saying that as Catholics we believe that God knows a heart, and by knowing the heart and soul of a baby chooses if a baby will or will not be welcome into heaven.
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First of all, by saying that God “chooses if a baby will or will not be welcome into heaven”, you seem to be saying that God judges babies. Prior to the age of reason, there is no personal sin; therefore, there’s nothing upon which God might judge. Instead, the only basis for judgment is original sin. The Catholic perspective on what happens to unbaptized babies has been debated throughout the ages. The most recent document, developed at the request of Pope Benedict, makes a few suggestions as to how this may happen: perhaps babies who die unbaptized share in Christ’s paschal mystery; perhaps those who died violently share in the “baptism in blood” that we ascribe to the Holy Innocents; or perhaps God simply gives them salvation, in a way analogous to the way He gives baptized babies salvation. None of these, though, speak to a notion of personal judgment for an unbaptized baby.

In the end, the document merely concludes that there are:
serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptised infants who die will be saved and enjoy the Beatific Vision. We emphasise that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge. There is much that simply has not been revealed to us (cf. Jn 16:12). We live by faith and hope in the God of mercy and love who has been revealed to us in Christ.
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Nowhere, however, does the Church suggest that God looks into a baby’s heart and personally judges him – this is something that only makes sense in the context of personal sin, which is not a context a baby participates in.
I choose to believe that because God knows the heart and soul of a Child and because I choose to rely on his mercy it is quite possible and probable to say a Child can enter heaven. So please show me where this is NOT church teaching?
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Relying on God’s mercy is exactly in step with Church teaching; saying that a child (I’m presuming you mean unbaptized) might enter heaven is ok, too. It’s the extra stuff about God judging them that caught my attention… 😉
And it Is Church teaching at the moment of our death Christ reveals himself to us. It is at that moment he chooses who does or does not enter heaven. With that said where does it go against Church teaching to say not all will have it revealed until the last day.
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Where it goes contrary to Church teaching is the assumption that the dead will have an opportunity to make some sort of final choice.
But the point is when it is revealed to you who Christ is, and that grace is given to you it is then you can reject it or accept it. Where does that go against Church teaching?
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It’s in the notion that a person gets a final “yes or no” choice at the moment of death. The Church doesn’t teach that.

(And, to be fair, if you’re asserting that this is what the Church teaches, you need to be able to point at a document of the Church and demonstrate your assertion. You can’t just say, “this is what I think the Church teaches; it’s up to you to disprove my claim”. ;))
 
Christian_Unity said:
Okay, then on an ecumenical Christian unity Christian Fellowship FB site, the discussion and debate of purgatory is a very minor issue. If the Catholic is right on this topic of purgatory, then Protestants still go through purgatory. If the Protestant is right, then Catholics don’t have to go through purgatory just like the Protestant. It’s crazy to divide the body of Christ on issues that are moot point. Does doctrine really matter? The answer is yes, no, maybe… depending on the issue.
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Hmmmm…we do not know who goes to purgatory…that is the judge’s decision as who should go there or not.

Here is an exhaustive explanation of purgatory…catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html.

By the way…purgatory is not a place…it is a cleansing…before being with God…for sin cannot be in the presence of God…and sin cannot enter heaven.

Just because one is protestant does not give them a free pass…or if one is catholic, it does not mean a catholic has to go through purgatory.

Rom 6 says…6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

Matt 5 says…26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

1cor 3 says…
9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Each and everyone undergoes this trial by fire…as the passage says…how and where? It cannot be heaven…for in heaven…there is no trial. It cannot be hell…there is not trial and no escaping hell…so it has to be somewhere, somehow…a process which cleanses…and then after this trial by fire to cleansing… “but yet will be saved”
 
Christian_Unity said:
Luther was right on Faith Alone according to the Pope… Catholic source

justforcatholics.org/benedict_justification.htm
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See the issue here is that protestants tend to use St Paul to justify their current understanding of the doctrine of savation by faith alone, but they in fact misquote St Paul when doing so. The verse they use " (Romans 3:28) we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law"
What are these works of Law?

Works of “Law” was following the rabinnic traditions that the pharisee used to effectively nullify the meaning of the 10 comandments with, and it was admonished by Jesus himself in Matthew 15 we see them using the “law” of men to twist the Law of God.
This is what St Paul is admonishing against. What is the new Law?
What is the new Faith?

The Pope pointed out that indeed Luther wrote: ‘Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever.’
Somehow nowdays the protestants want to “change” that into “Faith Alone”
 
JerryZ said:
See the issue here is that protestants tend to use St Paul to justify their current understanding of the doctrine of savation by faith alone, but they in fact misquote St Paul when doing so. The verse they use " (Romans 3:28) we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law"
What are these works of Law?

Works of “Law” was following the rabinnic traditions that the pharisee used to effectively nullify the meaning of the 10 comandments with, and it was admonished by Jesus himself in Matthew 15 we see them using the “law” of men to twist the Law of God.
This is what St Paul is admonishing against. What is the new Law?
What is the new Faith?

The Pope pointed out that indeed Luther wrote: ‘Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever.’
Somehow nowdays the protestants want to “change” that into “Faith Alone”
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Thank you for pointing this out Jerry, It is certainly something for our new friend to ponder concerning his interpretation of Faith and works… Peace, Carlan
 
JonNC said:
Just,
In the almost 4800 posts that you have made here at CAF, when have I ever, EVER, responded to you in a way that would lead you to wish this on me?

😃

Jon
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You’re right, I have over 4800 posts. :eek:
I need a life…:o
😉
 
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