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Ian1968
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Whether they will or not is one matter, but Protestants believe that there is no purgatory.
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What does that say about me at almost 11,000.You’re right, I have over 4800 posts.
I need a life…
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JustaServant
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Taestron
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This thread reminded me of a question I asked years ago in a theology class I had in college. The topic was various views of the afterlife (specifically hell), and we were reading about Purgatory (of which none of us Protestants had much of an understanding - luckily we were reading a book written by a Catholic:thumbsup
. At the time I asked the question whether or not the Catholic Church could ever use the doctrine of Purgatory as an ecumenical outreach to their separated brethren. And so I ask again. Are there any theologians out there using Purgatory in this way? If so, have they written any books that I could read?
. At the time I asked the question whether or not the Catholic Church could ever use the doctrine of Purgatory as an ecumenical outreach to their separated brethren. And so I ask again. Are there any theologians out there using Purgatory in this way? If so, have they written any books that I could read?
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benjohnson
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Well… if we Lutherans are wrong and there is a purgatory, I won’t be too upset to find myself there.
It would sure beat the alternative.
It would sure beat the alternative.
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JustaServant
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In all seriousness, the older I get the more I am uncomfortable with questions like this. Probably my years in fundamentalism make me cringe when I hear oversweeping declarations.
“All (insert the group you don’t agree with) are going to (insert the destination in which they will suffer).” Fundies like to say it is certain, because the “Bible tells them so”.
Catholics cannot allow themselves to give in to this type of mindset.
Perhaps Purgatory is more about the kind of life you led, with the knowledge you were given, instead of the other way around. The opportunities you missed, the path you could have taken, the consequences of the path you DID take.
It seems to me speculation on Purgatory should be more aimed at changing our lives NOW, instead of wondering what category of people will be there.
Like Ben Johnson said, It sure beats the alternative.
“All (insert the group you don’t agree with) are going to (insert the destination in which they will suffer).” Fundies like to say it is certain, because the “Bible tells them so”.
Catholics cannot allow themselves to give in to this type of mindset.
Perhaps Purgatory is more about the kind of life you led, with the knowledge you were given, instead of the other way around. The opportunities you missed, the path you could have taken, the consequences of the path you DID take.
It seems to me speculation on Purgatory should be more aimed at changing our lives NOW, instead of wondering what category of people will be there.
Like Ben Johnson said, It sure beats the alternative.
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rinnie
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We are taught as Catholics that we have a fair and Just God and he judges every SOUL at the moment of their death, Now you are saying that this excludes babies? Your turn to show me that scripture.Umm… hold on. I know that some theologians have speculated about this, or even about what might happen at the moment of death in general. However, what you’ve written here isn’t Church teaching. If you think that it is, though, you have something that backs up what you’ve written, I hope, that you’d be willing to share with us?
???
Umm… no. We entrust the souls of babies who die without baptism to God, trusting in his goodness and mercy. Again, we don’t know the answer to the question “how does it happen?”…
We are taught that we are free to rely on the mercy of God. I believe that we have a merciful God and he indeed accepts babys into heaven.There is Baptism of desire that is accepted in the RCC. What that means is if that baby were to die before Baptism was given God knows what the parents would have done. Or if not the parents God knows if the child would have lived what they would have chosen. Simply because God knows all.
But back to the point the Church does have a official teaching.
1257 ccc The Church teaches that Baptism is required for those whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this Sacrament.
All the Church states is it does not know of any other means, But it does not state any other means are not possible.
It actually states the oppposite that God has bound salvation of Baptism but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
That last statement gives me hope as I stated and belief that having a knowing and all loving God it is possible.
1261 states that the tenderness of Jesus in which he said, Let the Children come to me, do not hinder them allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism.
So while the Church cannot say baptism is NOT necessary, because it was as stated by Christ it is necessary, he does say that we can rely on the mercy of God.
I choose to rely on that mercy and do not see where I am in conflict with the teaching of the Church.
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Christian_Unity
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I think the entire issue of grace and mercy really has to do with where grace and mercy is found. Do we know God as judge for eternal condemnation or as our eternal Heavenly Father? Scripture tells us that there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Rom 8). The gospel is a ministry of reconciliation. Therefore, the need of reconciliation means that two parties are at war with each other. Either the infant is in enmity with God in need of reconciliation through Christ, or the baby does not need the ministry of reconciliation. Because the baby is guilty due to all humanity being united to Adam’s one act of disobedience, I do believe all infants need the grace and mercy of God found in Christ alone. Can God apply the person and work of Christ to infants who die in infancy? Of course He can. There is great hope for infants who die in infancy from a believing household (1 Cor 7). Those infants are clean and holy (without baptism) as compared to infants from a non-believing household.
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batman1973
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Well, I don’t know about anyone else, but since Jesus’ Blood washed me clean from all sin and unrightousness, I don’t have to spend anytime anywhere except in heaven. I’m truly great-ful for what He did on the cross, and his resurrection.:extrahappy:
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rinnie
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Really? Just wondering what do you feel about St Paul saying he lived out his life in fear and trembling? I personally and like him. I cannot judge myself that is for God to do on my own personal judgement day.Well, I don’t know about anyone else, but since Jesus’ Blood washed me clean from all sin and unrightousness, I don’t have to spend anytime anywhere except in heaven. I’m truly great-ful for what He did on the cross, and his resurrection.:extrahappy:
Also just curious did you ever think that Purgatory is a free gift from God because of the Cross and suffering for our sins he did?
I like St Paul know that I am indeed a sinner and while Jesus washed away orginal sin by his cross, he also made it possible for my actual sins to be washed away by the Sacrament of Confession.
While I agree my Baptism washed me clean, I admit my sins make me dirt once more. That I need to repent and change my ways so that Christ will accept me into heaven,
I believe that I will have to spend time in purgatory, although it is possible with much prayer and repentance I indeed can do my purgatory time here on earth. But for me to be made clean for heaven, I realize I do not only have to rid myself of the sin completely, I must rid myself of the desire of the sin.
That is what Purgatory is usually about. It is not the sins we commit or have committed it is the desire of our own mind that makes the sin possible.
In heaven you must have no desire for sin whatsover.
Do you honestly believe that you are at that point in your life you have no desire for any sin whatsoever? I am not saying it is not possible, many have done so, and become Saints on this earth. Just not many. Do you consider yourself a Saint?
Because you have to to judge yourself worthy and ready for heaven as you claim.
I will continue like St Paul to pray and ask for the grace of God to help me rid myself of ALL desire of any sin whatsover.
Curious, did you ever gossip? Did you know gossip is a sin? Remember what Jesus said to the Jews? Its not what goes into your mouth that will send you to hell, its what comes out,
I unfortunately can say I know very few people who gossip, or lie at times, or cheat, or sometimes drink too much, or gamble, or swear, or get angry, jealous. While many of these are human emotions we must be rid of them to be ready for heaven.
Another curious question, why do you think St Peter said we must repent, be baptised and confess our sins if Jesus did it all for us? Why do we have to repent? Or do you feel that is not necessary? Because as you stated you know you are going to heaven.
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rinnie
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I personally agree with you on the point there is great hope for infants to enter heaven.
I believe as the bible tells in laymans terms only on what we can be held responsible. He takes everything into account.
But I do know that God can do what he wants and as I said is not bound to sacraments.
With that said I must STRESS that everyone should have an infant baptised as soon as possible.
Give that Soul to God as SOON as POSSIBLE. Why would anyone want to wait for the Holy Spirit to enter a soul?
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Gorgias
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LOL… of course not! However, what you said seemed to imply something different:
I looked back at what I’d written in response to you, earlier this week. It does look like I’m saying “no particular judgment”. That’s not what I’m trying to say – after all, we all do receive a particular judgment.
However, for babies, there’s no possibility of personal sin, so that ‘judgment’ has a different character than it does for us who have reached the age of reason: God indeed looks into our hearts and determines a just judgment that, for each of us is “in accordance with his works and faith” (CCC 1021). However, for a baby, there’s no ‘works’. For a baptized baby, there’s the faith of his parents as a proxy for him in his baptism; for an unbaptized baby, there isn’t even necessarily this explicit proxy.
So, I wasn’t trying so much to say “no particular judgment for babies”, but questioning what you meant by “God looking into the hearts” of babies to decide whether they get into heaven. That didn’t sound quite right; what you’ve said in this post, though, sounds more like ‘trust in God’, which is more in line with Church teaching…
Right – if all you’re saying is “I trust in God’s mercy (toward unbaptized babies)”, then we’re both saying the same thing…
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Gorgias
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In heaven, will you be perfect?
(Easy question: ‘Yep’ – after all, no one can stand before God and behold him (and still survive!) without being perfect in God’s sight.)
Are you perfect now? (Not ‘justified’… not ‘saved’… perfect).
If you answer ‘yes’, well, then…
If you answer ‘no’, well then, you agree with the Catholic position: something has to happen between the time of your death and the time you begin life in heaven to make you perfect. That’s all we’re saying with the doctrine of Purgatory. (All the rest is just an attempt to understand it by approximating its character in human terms…)
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rinnie
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Nope, not trying to imply anything different. God judges all of us in a just and understanding way, according to our understanding and situation.
And God knows a heart, rather it be a baby, a child, an adult. Actually God knows if you are one of his and what your fate will be at the moment of your being.
As horrible as this is to hear, many will deny God and choose to reject him, his love, his commands and choose hell over him. Many refuse or don’t want to hear this, but its the truth.
The moment that being is created by God it has a soul. And God knows what that soul is made of.
Just like he knows the moment we came into this world the same moment we will depart.
Sometimes God puts a baby on this earth for one second, and people cannot understand why, But God knows and has his reasons for every single thing that happens, Although we cannot understand him, we are not to question him.
Sometimes, and this is just my thinking now, not the Church, that when babies come into this world, if God knows that if they stay into this world, they could not be strong enough to be good, and in taking them home early, it saves them. Maybe just a crazy thinking on my part, but who knows. But one thing I know for sure, He sure knows. And in the end it will be a very happy end for all who are welcomed home in his love. I pray we can all truly want to be with him, enough to obey him in this hard world.
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batman1973
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“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9) He makes us clean. “As far as the east is from the west, so far hath He removed our transgressions from us” (Psalm 103:12) God forgets our sins, if we confess them. “Come now, and let us reason together,” saith the Lord. “Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” (Isaiah 1:18) Again, Jesus makes us clean.My understanding is that Jesus’ death and resurrection paid for my sins, so that I am forgiven. I’m sorry if you don’t see it that way, but I do. So, I do know that I am made clean through the blood of the Lamb. I do work out my salvation with fear and trembling. I do try to do what God expects of me. If I fall short (and I do) Grace and forgiveness are there. And, it’s because He made me clean that I know that I don’t need a place like “purgatory” because I’ll have no sin held against me.
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Porknpie
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Bat - all your quotes are coming out of a Catholic book, canonized 1200 years before Luther.
Here’s some easy reading from scripturecatholic.com on purgatory. Punishment due to sin aside, nothing unclean can enter heaven, including the inclination or even thought of sinning. Purgatory removes this from our human state prior to our entering heaven. Call that transition and cleansing what you want, but Catholics call it purgatory. Do high church Lutherans believe in purgatory? Calling Jon…scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
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SteveVH
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Yes, when we confess our sins we are cleansed; washed completley clean. We have an amazing, loving and merciful God.
Yes, if you confess your sins. What about if you don’t?
What’s there to work out if there is no danger of being in the state of sin when you die. And if that danger exists, if you can die in sin, then how can you enter heaven unless that sin is purged from your soul?
Well, that’s a very human and natural way to want to look at it. No one wants to believe that when they leave this earth they may have years of some sort of suffering to endure. But we really don’t know what it is that we will endure. What we do know is that purgatory is the mercy of God. We are made perfect by Him who is perfect so that we may dwell with him for eternity. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me, expecially considering the alternative.
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batman1973
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I can answer that question. No. Lutherans do not believe in purgatory. And, the bible isn’t a Catholic book in the sense your thinking of. It’s a catholic or universal book. And, I take the words of God over the words of man.(“Purgatory” came from Dante’s Divine Comedy) To say that God will still hold us accountable for sins that Jesus paid for already cheapens Grace.(IMHO) When we ask God to forgive us our sins, He will. He will forgive them, and forget them. From my understanding of the Sacred Scriptures (A very appropriate term, btw) There is no need for the Catholic “purgatory” or the Mormon “spirit prison”Bat - all your quotes are coming out of a Catholic book, canonized 1200 years before Luther.
scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
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batman1973
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If you’re cozy with the idea of spending an indeterminate time in “purgatory” that’s fine with me. Since I know that I can be forgiven of my sins by a Loving God, then I can pass jail and get straight to God.Yes, when we confess our sins we are cleansed; washed completley clean. We have an amazing, loving and merciful God.
Yes, if you confess your sins. What about if you don’t?
What’s there to work out if there is no danger of being in the state of sin when you die. And if that danger exists, if you can die in sin, then how can you enter heaven unless that sin is purged from your soul?
Well, that’s a very human and natural way to want to look at it. No one wants to believe that when they leave this earth they may have years of some sort of suffering to endure. But we really don’t know what it is that we will endure. What we do know is that purgatory is the mercy of God. We are made perfect by Him who is perfect so that we may dwell with him for eternity. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me, expecially considering the alternative.
-Edit: Thank goodness for confession and absolution!
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SteveVH
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Do you mean in the sense that it was Catholic bishops at a Catholic Council who determined the inspired canon of Sacred Scripture, for which Luther even ackowledged and praised the Church? That would be the sense of which I would be thinking.
How do you know they are the words of God?
Or maybe you just don’t have a full understanding of the theology behind it.
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