Will Protestants go through purgatory?

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Porknpie said:
if you crack them and fry them together it does. :confused:

This is what the Catholic Church has taught for 2000 years.

Catholic catechism

You can read more here… scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm

Pauline - do you believe in a sacramental or symbolic baptism?
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Symbolic, an act of obedience and reverence to our Lord for the children of believers and new believers. I also believe in the real presence in the Communion as a spiritual, rather than physical eating of the flesh and blood of Christ which is represented by the bread.
 
Gorgias said:
True, but here’s the discussion: presuming Purgatory exists, will Protestants (who don’t believe in its existence) go through the process of Purgation?
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Curiosly, as a Lutheran, I recognize that we go through purgation. I just don’t see Purgatory as a separate state/place where this occurs. IOW, I see it as an instant event, purged by the loving grace our our Savior, at the moment of death.

A long, but worthy read on the broader topic is found in the Lutheran - Catholic document.
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/dialogue-with-others/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm

A brief discussion of the document, be Dr. Micheal Root, a participant on the Lutheran side before becoming Catholic is here:
mainstreambaptist.blogspot.com/2012/06/ecumenical-dialogue-on-hope-of-eternal.html

From the prior, in part:
  1. Catholics and Lutherans agree:
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  1. During this life, the justified “are not exempt from a lifelong struggle against the contradiction to God within the selfish desires of the old Adam (see Gal. 5:16; Rom. 7:7-10)” (JDDJ, 28; cf. Trent DS 1515 and 1690 and LC, Baptism, paras. 65-67236).
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  1. This struggle is rightly described by a variety of categories: e.g., penitence, healing, daily dying and rising with Christ.
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  1. Borne in Christ, the painful aspects of this struggle are a participation in Christ’s suffering and death. Catholic teachings call these pains temporal punishments; the Lutheran Confessions grant they can, "in a formal sense,"237 be called punishments.
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  1. This ongoing struggle does not indicate an insufficiency in Christ’s saving work, but is an aspect of our being conformed to Christ and his saving work.238
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5.** The effects of sin in the justified are fully removed only as they die, undergo judgment, and encounter the purifying love of Christ. The justified are transformed from their condition at death to the condition with which they will be blessed in eternal glory. All, even martyrs and saints of the highest order, will find the encounter with the Risen Christ transformative in ways beyond human comprehension.
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  1. Christ transforms those who enter into eternal life. This change is a work of God’s grace. It can be rightly understood as our final and perfect conformation to Christ (Phil 3:21). The fire of Christ’s love burns away all that is incompatible with living in the direct presence of God. It is the complete death of the old person, leaving only the new person in Christ.**
  2. Scripture tells us little about the process of the transformation from this life to entrance into eternal life. Categories of space and time can be applied only analogously.
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Jon
 
PaulinePresbytr said:
Symbolic, an act of obedience and reverence to our Lord for the children of believers and new believers.
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Pauline -

You believe then that Christ was a poor teacher… The Church has believed in a sacramental baptism since the beginning, this is reflected in scripture which you misinterpret and the writings of the church. Show evidence from the early church that baptism was symbolic. Show evidence that the Church had “believers baptisms”. 🤷 Your belief is contrary to 2000 years of Catholic, Orthodox and the teaching of (even) Luther.

Here’s a short tract on the subject. catholic.com/tracts/the-necessity-of-baptism
I also believe in the real presence in the Communion as a spiritual, rather than physical eating of the flesh and blood of Christ which is represented by the bread.
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No surprise here. You believe Christ was a poor teacher. Again, show evidence that the early church believed the Real Presence was spiritual. You again run into Catholic teaching but also Orthodox and Luther (although an altered view on the real presence)

Suggest reading John 6 out loud.

Here’s just one line…can you find the errors?
55 For my flesh is symbolic food, and my blood is symbolic drink.
 
Porknpie said:
No surprise here. You believe Christ was a poor teacher. Again, show evidence that the early church believed the Real Presence was spiritual. You again run into Catholic teaching but also Orthodox and Luther (although an altered view on the real presence)
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Hi Pork,
There are those would might say (and not just Lutherans), historically, that Transubstantiation was the “altered view” of the real presence. 😉 😃

Jon
 
batman1973 said:
Faith. That’s how I know it’s the Word of God. Asked, answered, moving on.
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And does the historical truth concerning the canonization of Sacred Scripture not enter into your discernment in any way? Do you believe you can just ignore it?
 
I gave my opinion on why I don’t feel that I will go to purgatory. If you don’t agree with that, that is perfectly
fine, since I have read on this forum what I believe is a cesspool of heresy. I may not agree 100 percent on everything the Catholic Church teaches at least I don’t say something that bad , on a different thread. Catholics in my opinion at least have the most fundamental things correct. They acknowledge that they are sinners, and, They believe and trust in Jesus Christ as thier Lord and Savior.And for
me, that’s good enough to know that they are my brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
batman1973 said:
I gave my opinion on why I don’t feel that I will go to purgatory…
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Just a question Bat…who decides…you or Christ as to who will undergo further cleansing before going to heaven?

Can you be absolutely sure you are clean enough to go straight to heaven? Or is a dose of humility needed not to presume and submit to the judgement of Christ and humbly accept what His judgement is…for as Romans 2 says… 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.
 
That is a fair question. And my understanding of the Word of God is that through Jesus’ death and resurrection if I ask for it I receive total forgiveness, And complete cleansing, Since He is faithful and just to forgive me of my sins and cleanse me from all unrighteousness. All means all. And to me that is the beauty of faith alone. Now, that doesn’t mean I don’t believe in good works I just don’t believe the good work save me. Good works, are just a fruit of my salvation.( On a side note, this is awful hard to do on a smartphone.)
 
batman1973 said:
That is a fair question. And my understanding of the Word of God is that through Jesus’ death and resurrection if I ask for it I receive total forgiveness,

That is right…agreed with you on that.

But is forgiving others also required? Matt 6…14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
And complete cleansing, Since He is faithful and just to forgive me of my sins and cleanse me from all unrighteousness. All means all.
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Jesus does all the cleansing. And as for forgiving others,yes I must forgive. It’s hard, but with Jesus’ help ,I can do it. Good works should never be robotic. You should want to do them. It’s an attitude of gratitude if you will. I do good works to show that I am saved not to be saved. in my opinion those say "Lord Lord did I not do____."are the ones who only did good works but didn’t believe. You can never be good enough, you can never do enough good works, to enter into heaven. Only through the blood of Jesus can 1 do that. and that may not be the official Lutheran standpoint. But it is mine.
 
They will go to purgatory but will think it is heaven. 😃
Christian_Unity said:
On a Christian Fellowship Facebook site consisting of both Catholics and Protestants, one of the Catholic Members brought up purgatory. Since Protestants generally do not believe in the doctrine of purgatory, what does the Catholic Church teach about Protestants going to purgatory even though most of us do not believe in it? Will Protestants still go to purgatory prior to our final Heavenly destination?
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JonNC,

What I got out of that quote is that catholics and lutherans can agree on the doctrine of purgatory - as long as we agree not to use the word! 😉

I think catholics DO bear some of the blame for misunderstandings on the topic because far too many of us still hold a distorted understanding of purgatory ourselves. If a catholic explains it as if it were merely hell with a timer attached, then no wonder protestants reject it, eh?

But when catholics explain that there is a genuine, substantial and profound difference between that character of most men at the moment before death and that at his entry to heaven, then purgatory is a logical necessity. Accurately describing it is, of course, a speculative effort in futility. Eyewitnesses generally don’t return to tell us about it! 🙂
 
=manualman;10038898]JonNC,

What I got out of that quote is that catholics and lutherans can agree on the doctrine of purgatory - as long as we agree not to use the word! 😉
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Well, not exactly. We still don’t buy the state/place language of the doctrine. But I still believe the biggest problem, and Luther talks about this, is the indulgences, Mass being propitiatory for the dead, etc.
I think catholics DO bear some of the blame for misunderstandings on the topic because far too many of us still hold a distorted understanding of purgatory ourselves. If a catholic explains it as if it were merely hell with a timer attached, then no wonder protestants reject it, eh?

But when catholics explain that there is a genuine, substantial and profound difference between that character of most men at the moment before death and that at his entry to heaven, then purgatory is a logical necessity. Accurately describing it is, of course, a speculative effort in futility. Eyewitnesses generally don’t return to tell us about it! 🙂
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Father Tavard made a comment in a Lutheran / Catholic dialogue statement about this:
Father Tavard showed how purgatory has been understood by Catholics as both a place of punishment and a state of cleansing, perhaps even momentary, at the time of death. Among the mystics, the latter image has greater prominence inasmuch as final purgation means an encounter with the “fire” of divine love which removes the effects of sin on the human person.
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nccbuscc.org/comm/archives/2006/06-212.shtml

This statement piqued my interest about where areas of common ground could be.

Jon
 
John,
I believe that those two things weren’t originally different topics (punishment versus transformation). It sounds suspiciously like an American problem to view punishment as an end apart from reform. I find it helpful to view punishment in this context like I, as a father, view punishment for my children; the primary purpose isn’t vengeance, it is imparting virtue.

I recognize indulgences are a protestant boogeyman, but they really aren’t any scarier when examined carefully than purgatory is. The point of an indulgence is to surrender one’s will to Christ in small things first, so that we learn the pattern and come to do it in great things. Praying a certain novena holds no intrinsic power in the sense of the superstitious (manipulation of the supernatural). The power is in the denial of self and obedience to God in even such a small matter as a short time of prayer and listening.

The same goes for offering mass for the dead. It isn’t that our prayers or even our offering the sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Christ makes God change His mind and take time off the timer (the ugly “hell with a timer” distortion of purgatory). What happens (my speculation) is that when we pray for the souls in purgatory (who, I suspect, are witnessing the ripple effects of all their life’s sins on the rest of humanity via divinely revealed knowledge) God allows those souls to SEE and HEAR our prayers for them and experiencing that love from fellow believers benefits them and assists them on their path to final sanctification.

As an aside, isn’t THAT a scary thought? What if purgatory is an experience where we must come face to face with all the negative effects of the sins we committed in life? What if that’s what it takes to truly be healed of our attractions to sin with our free will intact?
 
manualman said:
John,
I believe that those two things weren’t originally different topics (punishment versus transformation). It sounds suspiciously like an American problem to view punishment as an end apart from reform. I find it helpful to view punishment in this context like I, as a father, view punishment for my children; the primary purpose isn’t vengeance, it is imparting virtue.

I recognize indulgences are a protestant boogeyman, but they really aren’t any scarier when examined carefully than purgatory is. The point of an indulgence is to surrender one’s will to Christ in small things first, so that we learn the pattern and come to do it in great things. Praying a certain novena holds no intrinsic power in the sense of the superstitious (manipulation of the supernatural). The power is in the denial of self and obedience to God in even such a small matter as a short time of prayer and listening.

The same goes for offering mass for the dead. It isn’t that our prayers or even our offering the sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Christ makes God change His mind and take time off the timer (the ugly “hell with a timer” distortion of purgatory). What happens (my speculation) is that when we pray for the souls in purgatory (who, I suspect, are witnessing the ripple effects of all their life’s sins on the rest of humanity via divinely revealed knowledge) God allows those souls to SEE and HEAR our prayers for them and experiencing that love from fellow believers benefits them and assists them on their path to final sanctification.

As an aside, isn’t THAT a scary thought? What if purgatory is an experience where we must come face to face with all the negative effects of the sins we committed in life? What if that’s what it takes to truly be healed of our attractions to sin with our free will intact?
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This, indeed, is the scary part, when facing the truth of our sinful selves. Thanks be to God for the grace that heals us in order to meet Him face to face.

Jon
 
Agreed! See, too bad we weren’t both born 500 years ago, eh? We could have cleaned all this mess up! 😉

(kidding! I’m not THAT proud…)
 
One must be free mortal sin to enter purgatory. Which is why we Catholics make use of the Sacrament of Penance instituted by Christ for the forgiveness of mortal sin, sin that literally kills the soul,which without the Sacrament cannot be forgiven. I think Jesus knew what he was doing. I’m not God so I don’t know for sure but my best guess would be no. Pray for Protestants so they may receive the Sacraments. I don’t know what modern Catholic teaching on our separated brethren is. But I know for us Catholics we must be in a state of sanctifying grace to enter paradise. Protestants don’t believe in sacramental penance and forgiveness. I hope I didn’t offend anybody. I’m no theologian. Just my best educated guess.
 
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