Will someone explain Protestantism to me?

[Thaddeus]

The Jews do not accept those books as OT canon, why should Luther or any Christian?
The Jews are the authority concerning what is or is not their scripture.

The Alexandrian Canon of the OT (Greek Speaking Jews) does accept these books as canonical.

The Jews don’t accept the entire New Testament, so I’m not sure that they should be considered experts in what goes into a Christian bible anyway. The Gutenberg Bible, published in Germany in the century BEFORE Luther, has these 7 books in them. They were in the Bible for 1100 years when Luther threw them out.

 

[sandmountainsli]

The Alexandrian Canon of the OT (Greek Speaking Jews) does accept these books as canonical.

The Jews don’t accept the entire New Testament, so I’m not sure that they should be considered experts in what goes into a Christian bible anyway. The Gutenberg Bible, published in Germany in the century BEFORE Luther, has these 7 books in them. They were in the Bible for 1100 years when Luther threw them out.

Don’t get me wrong, Luther is no John Wesley but he did have the right idea concerning the Apocrypha and cleansing the church.
WP

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Hello,

OOOO! Yeah, where are denominations and the Reformation in the Bible?

That would be anything and everything to do with Jesus.

What I said about yokes, His was a different, radical, new yoke, some listened, some did not. And a whole new offshoot was born.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

There are others who say that the CC has elevated Saint Mary to the same level as Christ himself against the teachings of our Lord and the Apostles and the scripture.
Some would say that.
WP

Opinions don’t mean much of anything. What is the truth or don’t you believe in that? Most secularists don’t. That’s why there are so many Protestant groups.

CDL

 

[mystified]

:banghead: Well, first spill some mercury on the table.
Then put your finger on it. :banghead:

 

[colliric]

Don’t get me wrong, Luther is no John Wesley but he did have the right idea concerning the Apocrypha and cleansing the church.
WP

No he didn’t, the Hebrew canon was set once and for all well after the time of Christ so his argument is quite invalid to the observant christian who knows basic biblical new testament history. His ideas on the Deutrocanon were therefore fundamentally flawed and the Biblical canon of 325AD set then by the Catholic Church(inc the orthodox at the time) is far more stable. It is the original biblical canon.

The Greek Septuagint was used by the apostles and at least 1 apostle(St John) thought the Deutrocanon was legit, otherwise in Apocalpyse(Revelation) he wouldn’t have quite directly referenced Deutrocanon doctrine from the book of Tobit(which John had in his hands in the greek Septuagint), concerning 7 angels who present the prayers of the saints to god and stand before the throne of god.

But Luther probably wasn’t familiar with this passage(or if he was it would certainly explain why he wanted to chuck Revelations) and neither are most protestants of the modern day:

Tobit 12:15
I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One.

If you don’t accept the deutrocanon, why do you accept the final book of the new testament when it very clearly makes reference to Doctrine written down first in the deutrocanon that you do not think is part of the holy revelation? If you think it is part of holy revelation you should accept he had the book of Tobit and god told him it was Holy Scripture.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Well…so says you.
There are others who say the CC has turned into simply an organization where manmade tradition takes precedence over biblical teachings.
I would lean that way myself.
WP

**

Protestantism is man-made created out of the Reformation. All it did was remove itself from the Jesus Christ One true Church.

Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide was unheard of by the Early Christians.

Second, the Catholic Church uphold Tradition that does not negate God.

**

No, it is not true. Protestants have as their sole rule of faith the written Word of God, which we find in Sacred Scripture. The Catholic Church has as its sole rule of faith, the entire Word of God, as it is found in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

All of the Word of God was at one time passed on orally…Sacred Tradition. Eventually, some of Sacred Tradition was written down…this became Sacred Scripture, which is written tradition. However, Scripture itself tells us that not all of the things that Jesus said and did were written down. And listen to what Paul says about “tradition”:

2 Thes 2:15, “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” Traditions! Traditions taught by word of mouth, in other words, oral tradition, and traditions taught by letter. Traditions which they are being told to “stand firm and hold to”. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

1 Cor 11:2, “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.” The Corinthians are being commended by Paul because they maintain the traditions that he passed on to them. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

2 Tim 2:2: “and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” What we have here in 2 Timothy is an instance, in Scripture, of Paul commanding the passing on of oral tradition.

1 Thes 2:13, “And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the Word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the Word of God, which is at work in you believers.” So, they received as the Word of God that which they heard, not simply that which they read in Scripture.

In other words, the Bible clearly supports the Catholic Church’s teaching that the Word of God is contained in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. **

**

 

[Mannyfit75]

sandmountainsli:

There are others who say that the CC has elevated Saint Mary to the same level as Christ himself against the teachings of our Lord and the Apostles and the scripture.
Some would say that

.

The Catholic Church view Mary as a creature. A created being. She is not equal to God. Do you understand the typography of the OT and NT? If you don’t here is a quick belief.

In the OT in the days of Solomon, Jewish kings have mothers as their queen instead of their wives. For the kings have many wives. Since Jesus inherited the kingdom of David, he likewise kept the Jewish tradition, and is the King of this New Kingdom. Mary is the Queen as stated in Revelation 12, “woman clothed with the sun” who had a crown on her head.

4 “What is that to me”… These words of our Saviour, spoken to his mother, have been understood by some commentators as harsh, they not considering the next following verse: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye, which plainly shows that his mother knew of the miracle that he was to perform, and that it was at her request he wrought it; besides the manner of speaking the words as to the tone, and the countenance shown at the same time, which could only be known to those who were present, or from what had followed: for words indicating anger in one tone of voice, would be understood quite the reverse in another.

Just as the Jewish people offer petition to the queen to intercede on their behalf, so too it is seems fruitful to ask Mary.

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying “behold your mother.” Jesus did not say “John, behold your mother” because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The “woman’s” (Mary’s) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God’s covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary’s intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus’ ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother’s request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God’s kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King’s followers. She is the Queen Mother (or “Gebirah”). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel’s royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.

In John 2:4-5 * And Jesus said onto her, "Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come.5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye. *

This passage does not mean it ridicule Mary. Since Jesus would be dishonoring his mother. Instead, Jesus perform the miracle and turn water into wine.

Most Non-Catholics like yourself completely misunderstand Catholic teachings especially the concept of the Communion of Saint. If you truly with sincerity want to understand you must understand it in the light of the way we Catholics interpret Scripture and Tradition.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Other than that. This is trailing off the topic but I had to refute your claims against the Church which are untrue.

Protestantism itself in my opinion is a Man-Made Tradition since it has a variety of Protestant churches teaches different doctrines.

Some Protestant churches believe in the necessarity for baptism that it saves, and some churches believe it is symbolic.

Some believe in real presence like the Anglican, Lutherans.

Some deny the Blessed Trinity which some Penecostal profess and claim it is Un-Biblical because it is not in the Bible.

Some Protestants believe in OSAS and others do not.

Some Protestants believe in the Rapture (all Christian taken up body and sole and spared from the Great Tribulation a idea created by John Darby. Some Rapture theorists believe in two resurrections while in fact Scripture only speaks on One resurrection in the Last Day.

The teaching authority of protestant differ from one another.

Compare that with Catholic Magisterium authority which teaches one baptism, one faith, and same doctrines. It is united and not divided.

Protestantism produce division. I was watching ETWN and one of the convert to the Catholic Church told about his experience in one protestant church with split due to doctrinal issues. Where is the unity in Protestantism?

 

[mozart-250]

Umm…define Protestantism please.

I would argue there is no such thing.

Protestant is a category under which branches of Christendom that are not Catholic or Orthodox are commonly placed. Historically if your branch of Christendom can be shown to originate with a historical event called the reformation, we might classify your branch of Christendom as Protestant.

However, Protestant is a classification of branches of Christianity (much like mammal is a classification of living organisms). It is not a specific branch of Christianity, Therefore, by adding an “ism” to Protestant, you are saying that it is a branch of Christianity when in reality it is a classification of branches.

The only unifying characteristic of this classification of Christianity is that its individual branches reject (to different degrees) some of the distinctives of Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

The only unifying characteristic of this classification of Christianity is that its individual branches reject (to different degrees) some of the distinctives of Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

That is about it. If you reject historic Christianity, i.e., you protest against it, you are Protestant. Come home dear ones. Come home.

CDL

 

[mozart-250]

Come home dear ones. Come home.
CDL

Come Home ???

There is not a Catholic bone (beyond 1700 or so) in my lineage of New England Protestant that I am aware of.

“Coming Home” to me would be returning to the United Methodist church of my parents.

My dear 83 year old mother would have a cow if were to become Catholic (not that this is sufficient reason not to do so).

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

The Jews do not accept those books as OT canon, why should Luther or any Christian?
The Jews are the authority concerning what is or is not their scripture.
WP

They did until ~90 A.D. when they decided to exclude them at the Council of Jamnia. The Old Testament Canon used by Jesus Christ was the Septuagint (which had those 7 deuterocanonical books) - we have evidence of this from the New Testament.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

That would be anything and everything to do with Jesus.

What I said about yokes, His was a different, radical, new yoke, some listened, some did not. And a whole new offshoot was born.

Maybe it is just a little to early for me, but - what do you mean by this?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Come Home ???

There is not a Catholic bone (beyond 1700 or so) in my lineage of New England Protestant that I am aware of.

“Coming Home” to me would be returning to the United Methodist church of my parents.

My dear 83 year old mother would have a cow if were to become Catholic (not that this is sufficient reason not to do so).

I was speaking of coming home to Jesus Christ, not coming home to another protestant group.

CDL

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan
That would be anything and everything to do with Jesus.

What I said about yokes, His was a different, radical, new yoke, some listened, some did not. And a whole new offshoot was born.

Hello,

Maybe it is just a little to early for me, but - what do you mean by this?

in response to the statement " where are denominations and the Reformation in the Bible?"

The best I can explain is if you were to listen to a particular rabbi then you are agreeing with his interpertation. If another comes then you would have to decide if you agree with that one and take on their yoke as it were.

Jesus had a totally different teaching and some accepted, some didnt. (He did say His yoke was easy) He was changing the way people looked at things. Trying to get them to see what was always there.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I’m “In Christ” and “In Christ’s Church”. Those are my labels and I’m sticking with them.

We’re going to serve someone so why not serve the one who died and rose again to establish the Church.

CDL, Catholic and not afraid to be labeled.

 

[colliric]

Hello,

They did until ~90 A.D. when they decided to exclude them at the Council of Jamnia. The Old Testament Canon used by Jesus Christ was the Septuagint (which had those 7 deuterocanonical books) - we have evidence of this from the New Testament.

Also like I said, the Apostle John was under the impression they were canon too… So that’s why we should accept them, because the Church Fathers and Apostles did, and they are the ones who bothered to write the New Testament to share with us.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I was speaking of coming home to Jesus Christ, not coming home to another protestant group.

CDL

Hi,
Coming Home to me means physically dying and being home in heaven with my Lord and Savior:thumbsup:

That is my real home this life Im just passin through:thumbsup:

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

what bashing was colliric responding to? Besides I don’t think Jesus ever said “Do unto others as they did to you first.”

Shouldn’t that be “Do others, before they do you” ?​

Joking apart - Protestantism is not impossible to understand, any more than Catholicism is; but there is no prospect of doing so, if one goes no further than making cheap & superficial remarks; no way of life or belief can be understood if treated that way. Seen from the outside, Catholicism can look utterly weird - and so it is, in a way.