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Alphonsine
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Dei Verbum, I’m sorry… I’m sort of confused as to what you are asking?
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sandmountainsli
Guest
Then I take it you have never attended a First Congregational Methodist Church?
We have a very clear doctrine, it is called the Articles of Religion and our Book of Discipline.
Pure Christianinty without any of the New Age mumbo jumbo and excuse making for sinners.
WP
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Dei_Verbum
Guest
A protestant friend of mine says that Mary is described as having sinned in the bible as all have sinned and we have to believe in Mary’s Immaculate Conception.
Why is there a difference? It appears that Catholicism does not make sense here.
I am sorry for the mistake in my first post. I am new here.
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exoflare
Guest
Just because your friend says the Bible describes Mary as “having sinned” doesn’t make it true. Don’t simply take your friend’s word for it if he or she has no evidence to back up their claim.
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Alphonsine
Guest
I’m glad that you have a doctrine… but can you now explain to me where exactly sola scriptura and sola fide are justified in the Bible?
Dei Verbum,
We Catholics believe in Mary’s Immaculate Conception - that is, she was conceived without original sin. We also believe that, through God’s Grace, she was sinless in life.
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Dei_Verbum
Guest
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned” is the evidence and our church considers the bible as inspired by the Holy Spirit.
What is the truth Catholicism or something else?
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exoflare
Guest
So do you take this verse to mean every human being who ever lived on earth has committed a sin? I just want to make it clear first…
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sandmountainsli
Guest
I’m glad that you have a doctrine… but can you now explain to me where exactly sola scriptura and sola fide are justified in the Bible?
./QUOTE
The exact same place where the Immaculate Conception and CoRedemtrix status of Mary is described.
That would be the chapter of ? following the verse which tells us to pray to saints
WP
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exoflare
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sandmountainsli
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Dei_Verbum
Guest
I am simply asking why the bible says “all have sinned” and why our church says that Mary has not sinned. I know that I have sinned. Why does our church make an exception for Mary, when the Holy Spirit has inspired Paul to write Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned” Was the Holy Spirit wrong or has the Holy Spirit revealed something to the clergy that I do not know about?
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Alphonsine
Guest
I’ve taken this fromhttp://catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp. These are not my own words.
"But what about Romans 3:23, “all have sinned”? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they “had done nothing either good or bad” (Rom. 9:11). "
"We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made. "
"Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain. "
"The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be. "
"The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. When Fundamentalists claim that the doctrine was “invented” at this time, they misunderstand both the history of dogmas and what prompts the Church to issue, from time to time, definitive pronouncements regarding faith or morals. They are under the impression that no doctrine is believed until the pope or an ecumenical council issues a formal statement about it. "
"Actually, doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief. The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her. "
“Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.”
"But what about Romans 3:23, “all have sinned”? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they “had done nothing either good or bad” (Rom. 9:11). "
"We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made. "
"Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain. "
"The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be. "
"The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. When Fundamentalists claim that the doctrine was “invented” at this time, they misunderstand both the history of dogmas and what prompts the Church to issue, from time to time, definitive pronouncements regarding faith or morals. They are under the impression that no doctrine is believed until the pope or an ecumenical council issues a formal statement about it. "
"Actually, doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief. The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her. "
“Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.”
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exoflare
Guest
Based on WHAT?? All your teachings come from divinely inspired scripture, apparently… So where is the divinely inspired table of contents that lets us “know” which writings after Christ were divinely inspired?
Not to mention you still haven’t answered why you say that written scripture MUST be the only source of truth.
I will address further questions when you answer the ones that I posed to you first.
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sandmountainsli
Guest
Because scripture never changes unlike the doctrines of man.
What was written in the third century is written now.
This alone makes it an excellent source of truth.
WP
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exoflare
Guest
Well for one thing, do you think Jesus would be an exception? Why doesn’t this trouble you as much? How about all the stillborn babies out there who never got the chance to commit a sin?
Basically, the verse was referring to a general observation about mankind to which there are individual exceptions. You have to read scripture in context with all the rest of scripture - not in selective and isolated “proof texts”.
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Alphonsine
Guest
Sandmountainsli,
I agree that the Bible is divinely-inspired - it is the Word of God. But your belief in sola scriptura is contradicted by the fact that it is no where actually justified in scripture.
The Bible is God’s Holy Word, but it is not the sole source of authority. Remember, the early Church and her members existed before the Bible was even compiled… and it was the Church (Catholic, may I add) that compiled the Bible. How can an infallible compilation of Scripture be compiled by a Church that you claim to be wrong? It can’t. Truth is consistent.
I agree that the Bible is divinely-inspired - it is the Word of God. But your belief in sola scriptura is contradicted by the fact that it is no where actually justified in scripture.
The Bible is God’s Holy Word, but it is not the sole source of authority. Remember, the early Church and her members existed before the Bible was even compiled… and it was the Church (Catholic, may I add) that compiled the Bible. How can an infallible compilation of Scripture be compiled by a Church that you claim to be wrong? It can’t. Truth is consistent.
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exoflare
Guest
LOL I’m sorry but this is some kind of twisted logic here… you’re saying that if something never changes, that means it must be the only source of truth? What about all the other books that were written at that time? By your reasoning, since the words on those pages didn’t jump up and rearrange themselves they must be part of scripture as well.
Great, so we’ve narrowed down “divinely inspired scripture” to anything written in or before the third century. You think we should specify just a little bit more?
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Dei_Verbum
Guest
Jesus did not sin as he is God. Stillborn babies are unborn. Mary was not a stillborn baby or God. What proof text are you talking about? How does the rest of the bible support Mary’s sinlessness?
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Dei_Verbum
Guest
Why did Mary require a saviour when she was sinless?
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Alphonsine
Guest
I realize that not everybody’s questions are going to be answered here. But if you have questions about Catholism, and you want answers, I strongly advise you to read Scott Hahn’s Rome Sweet Home. He was a very anti-Catholic Protestant minister who converted to Catholism, and his book tells his story. It might clear up some questions.
God Bless You.
God Bless You.
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