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Dei_Verbum
Guest
Are you sure that protestants deny that Jesus is both fully man and fully God? How does this affect Mary’ state of sinlessness or the biblical fact that ‘all have sinned’ if what you are saying is true?
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sandmountainsli
Guest
Speaking for my church we do NOT deny that Jesus is both man and God. That is a heresy, we are not heretics.
WP
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Dei_Verbum
Guest
Are you sure that protestants deny that Jesus is both fully man and fully God? How does this affect Mary’ state of sinlessness or the biblical fact that ‘all have sinned’ if what you are saying is true?
How does this affect Mary’ state of sinlessness or the biblical fact that ‘all have sinned’ ?
Do protestants deny that Jesus is fully God and fully man?
How does this affect Mary’ state of sinlessness or the biblical fact that ‘all have sinned’ ?
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
- No, that’s not what I mean
- The consolamentum, which was the rite of suicide, was a Cathar rite - that it was not Catholic, does not make it common to all non-Catholic groups; not even to those that were related, contemporaneous, and confused with one another. Manichaeism is only rather doubtfully to be called Christian anyway, even in the West - it was essentially a non-Christian creed, which sometimes expressed itself in a superficially Christian fashion. It was no more really a Christian movement than Buddhism or the Baha’i religion.
- What I had in mind was the existence less of (almost Catholic) groups such as the Waldenses, or the Utraquists (though these too might be mentioned as pre-Reformation non-Catholics), than of Churches such as the Chaldeans (in Mesopotamia), the Copts (in Ethiopia), the Nestorians (in the Far East, including China, from 635 to at least 845), the Iberian Church in the Crimea (I think - “Iberian” refers to Spain in other contexts, which can be confusing; but to call them “Georgian”, though accurate, might conjure up a picture of Jimmy Carter ), & the Armenians. None of these was in union with Rome, or not for long, after the initial loss of communion; they survived even so. And they do undermine the idea that there were no pre-Reformation non-Roman Churches. Unless one defines as a Church only the CC: which is fine if one is dealing with the Church from a dogmatic POV, but won’t work if one is looking at matters from an historical POV.
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Kitty_Chan
Guest
Dei I posted back at #98 protestants do not deny Jesus is fully God and fully man.
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exoflare
Guest
sandmountainsli,
Care to respond to that last post I addressed to you?
Care to respond to that last post I addressed to you?
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
While the Churches of the Byzantine rite have formed along national lines, that is not the de facto standard. In the Latin rite, it was always one Church (though different rites have flourished in different areas - i.e. Ambrosian rite in Milan). There has never been the French Latin Catholic Church or the British Latin Catholic Church or the German Latin Catholic Church, etc.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
How so?
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
Usually the denial is not explicit, as in a statement - We don’t believe in the humanity of Jesus - or - We don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. Although this is the case with a couple of groups, the majority of those who deny do it much more subtly, and may not even realise that they are doing so. They will tend to focus so much on one aspect the the other gets dissolved.
For instance, a group could focus on Jesus’ humanity. He becomes the historical Jesus. They think of Him in almost purely human terms and suddenly He doesn’t seem be divine anymore - He’s one of us, and one of us sinners can’t do anything without God, therefore Jesus didn’t perform those miracles, it was His Father Who sent Him.
Or, a group could focus on Jesus’ divinity. They think of Him in almost purely divine terms and suddenly the thought of Him condescending to take on a true human form is repulsive. At best, He took over some Jewish boys body and possessed him like a demon does.
The correct understanding is that Jesus is fully God, equal to the Father in all things. He is also fully man, like us in everything except sin. This means as man, He got sick, had to eat, got dirty and smelly, had emotions and feelings, could die, etc. It also means that as God, He is omnipotent, omniscent, omnipresent, etc.
If none of this applies to your particular denomination, I can’t (nor can anyone) speak for all the denominations. And even within denominations, every member has different beliefs. This is the tragic effect of sola scriptura and private interpretation.
That is one of the problems when speaking with or about Protestants. Each denomination believes different (sometimes radically) things than every other denomination.
Usually the denial is not explicit, as in a statement - We don’t believe in the humanity of Jesus - or - We don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. Although this is the case with a couple of groups, the majority of those who deny do it much more subtly, and may not even realise that they are doing so. They will tend to focus so much on one aspect the the other gets dissolved.
For instance, a group could focus on Jesus’ humanity. He becomes the historical Jesus. They think of Him in almost purely human terms and suddenly He doesn’t seem be divine anymore - He’s one of us, and one of us sinners can’t do anything without God, therefore Jesus didn’t perform those miracles, it was His Father Who sent Him.
Or, a group could focus on Jesus’ divinity. They think of Him in almost purely divine terms and suddenly the thought of Him condescending to take on a true human form is repulsive. At best, He took over some Jewish boys body and possessed him like a demon does.
The correct understanding is that Jesus is fully God, equal to the Father in all things. He is also fully man, like us in everything except sin. This means as man, He got sick, had to eat, got dirty and smelly, had emotions and feelings, could die, etc. It also means that as God, He is omnipotent, omniscent, omnipresent, etc.
If none of this applies to your particular denomination, I can’t (nor can anyone) speak for all the denominations. And even within denominations, every member has different beliefs. This is the tragic effect of sola scriptura and private interpretation.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
But the main issue I take with your above explanation, is that to me it seems to indicate a relativism that everyone must decide on his/her own what teachings to follow and that whatever is decided is okay. While everyone must decide for themself to have faith (faith cannot be imposed on anyone), your explanation seems relativistic. But, maybe I am just misreading it.
I agree that Jesus teaching was different than the general religious thoughts of His day, although there were rabbis who taught the same things like - be good to your neighbor (generally thought to be your Jewish neighbor, with little regard for the Gentiles). There was a fundamental difference in some of His teachings that no rabbi could initiate - such as a new covenant, the power to forgive sins given to men, etc. And yes some did accept, and some did not. Evidence of this is in the Gospel according to Saint John when some of His disciples left after Jesus told them of His Real Presence in the Eucharist (John 6:66-67).
But the main issue I take with your above explanation, is that to me it seems to indicate a relativism that everyone must decide on his/her own what teachings to follow and that whatever is decided is okay. While everyone must decide for themself to have faith (faith cannot be imposed on anyone), your explanation seems relativistic. But, maybe I am just misreading it.
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Hellisreal
Guest
I like this post! Think: Black and Tan… it’s like the coolest way to think about Jesus and have a drink at the same time. Hypostatic Union.
So cool.
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Thaddeus
Guest
Here are the 10 scripture verses that Marcus Grodi, former Calvinist preacher, now on EWTN, said that he never knew while he was a protestant. These pretty much make the case for the Catholic Church being the one true Church that Jesus Himself started.
- Proverbs 3:5-6 (No self interpretation)
“Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not unto your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him. And He will direct your paths.” - 1 Timothy 3: 14-15 (The Church)
“I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. “ - 2 Timothy 3:14-17 (Scripture)
“But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. “ - 2 Thessalonians 2:15 (Sacred Tradition)
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. “ - Matthew 16:13-19 (Peter)
“And Jesus answered him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.’" - Revelation 14:13 (Importance of works)
And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!” - Romans 10:14-15 (Ordination)
“But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? And how can men preach unless they are sent?” - John 15: 4 and 6:56 (Eucharist)
“Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. “
- Colossians 1:24 (Suffering)
“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, “ - Luke 1:46-49 (Mary)
“And Mary said, ‘My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.’”
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colliric
Guest
Yep.
Reading how Revelations directly uses and references Deutrocanon doctrine is what did it for me personally. Either you accept at least the Book of Tobit, which is where the “Seven Angels” doctrine comes from, otherwise you don’t have the complete bible.
Protestants don’t know that and don’t understand it in general.
Questioning the Apostle John’s integrity by saying that he was wrong about the Deutrocanon or that the book wasn’t even written by him(Luther purported this one) is directly questioning the integrity of the entire holy bible. Either he was right, or Revelations should not be in the bible… Luther was the only protestant who at least understood that and tried to have revelations taken out. To keep it in there and to NOT AGREE with the deutrocanon is ignorant and silly.
That’s why I don’t accept the protestant bibles, because they are fundamentally flawed. The only non-hypocritical bible is the Catholic one!
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Kitty_Chan
Guest
I understand how you could think that everyone must decide and whatever is ok. But thats not what Im speaking about. No faith cannot be imposed, God takes care of the conviction, the rest of us just plant seeds.
It was just a first comment regarding the statement about where reformation was in the bible. If one takes into consideration that Jesus had a different yoke than those rabbis of that day then that was reforming, or better put, life changing, a new idea of how they were to look at God. A way they never looked at before.
Throughout all time, we all have had to decide, how we see understand look at God. Not that God has changed to be clear. But the Christian Faith continues to grow as time goes and different understandings are brought up. God is not a quick topic, mysterys yes and many layers we still havent found what we are looking for (as U2 sung)
There is more to learn, we dont know it all. If we did then we’d be God
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JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
What for do we go about and boast in ourselves, taking pride for the work of God - for only the Holy Spirit can convert a soul. Ours is not to convert, but to converse.
This reminds me of a proverb.No faith cannot be imposed, God takes care of the conviction, the rest of us just plant seeds.
What for do we go about and boast in ourselves, taking pride for the work of God - for only the Holy Spirit can convert a soul. Ours is not to convert, but to converse.
G
Grace_Seeker
Guest
Well, I can’t believe I’m stepping into this mess for my first post on this board.Different protestant religions all teach different dogmas - infant baptism vs only adults, consubstantion vs symolism of the Eucharist, homosexual marriage OK vs tradtional marriage only, etc. How can the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus to be with us forever be in charge of all of these denominations and yet teach different doctrines?
Sola scriptura - If it isn’t in the Bible, it didn’t happen - like the Assumption of Mary and the Immaculate Conception. Well, then the Crusades and the Inquisition must not have happened either, because they aren’t in the bible either. John’s gospel says that if everything that did happen was recorded, all of the books in the world couldn’t hold them.
Sola Fide - Faith alone - Yet Jesus says to love thy neighbor and to love God, not to "have faith in Christ alone. " Matthew 25 talks about who gets into heaven at the last judgement and who doesn’t. The ones that get in are the ones who performed works of love for their fellow man, not those “who had faith in Christ alone”.
Thanks !!
Protestantism is much more easily explained than most here suppose. The issue in Protestanism is simply one of who you recognize as one’s authority. Does one recognize an individual, an office, or what one’s feels informed of personally by the Holy Spirit? If the last, then you have Protestantism. Protestants look not to any particular office, but what they since the leading of the Holy Spirit to be. Both Protestants and Catholics (and Orthodox too for that matter) appeal to authority, but they appeal to different authorities. And that is the difference.
If one accepts the Protestant assumption that God leads Christians individually to submit to him and follow his direction in life, then one would not submit to an ecclesiastical authority except for the purpose of preserving some sort of order, which while important is of less importance than having a clean conscience before God.
If one does not accept that assumption, and there is no reason that one necessarily should, then one might believe that God leads the church as a whole and further that God does so through a particular office would be a reasonable corrolary to such a position.
Though neither Luther nor Calvin, nor any other reformer quite articulated it that way, as I see it, the whole issue of Protestant vs. Catholic comes down not to theology but to one’s view on who’s authority one is under. Are we under the authority of God as exercised through the Church? Or are we directly under God’s authority as personally revealed to individuals through the Holy Spirit?
In further addressing how it is that different protestant groups can then come up with different dogmas, that is because they each continue to think that their own understanding (even if not perfect) s better than that they have received from others. It is of course one Holy Spirit, but it is many different imperfect humans who are interpreting the direction received for them, thus they may arrive at many different and imperfect understandings.
I might also suggest, that even with perfect understandings, that there might some legitimate reason to find different protestant denominations, not because of differing dogmas, but because of differing polities as God created enough variety in humanity that differing forms of church governance may be appropriate from one group to another.
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kra130
Guest
Protestants believe what the BIble says. we try not to take or add to it. although sometimes scripture is taken out of context like in psalms it says “there is no God” looking at just that part of the verse would destroy the Bible in a non-Christians view because it’s out of context the whole verse is “the fool says in his heart there is no God” (Psalms 14:1). which hopefully is never done intentionally.
even though we Christians don’t always interpret the Bible right does not make our salvation disappear. I was having a discussion with my pastor because i believe that Genesis should be taken litterally and i would argue until i was blue in the face and nearly made a sister stumble in her faith. he told me that there are two different doctrines A and B.
A doctrine is the important one that is needed for salvation. it is that you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and that he died for your sins not only yours but that of the world. it says it plain as day in John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” it is also essential that one understands that there is no work you can do on earth that can cover your transgressions. Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” this is the A doctrine.
B doctrine is any other doctrine, as long as it does not involve what i have written above. B doctrine would be like my belief that God made the world in six 24 hour days or whether or not Jesus had biological brothers. although it fun to discuss and debate at the end of the day no one goes to Hell because they differ in their readings of certain scripture.
Please don’t think that i’m saying that truth is relative and everyones right. by no means, there is absolute truth and we won’t know the extent of that truth until we all sit down for supper with the Lord in Heaven. however i am saying that sometime we get too work up over the little details that we miss the whole picture. if you think about it Christians generally don’t differ that much we all have a common goal commisioned by Christ “you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth” (Acts 1:8).
Just a thought but maybe as followers of the one true God we should live out Jesus’ word “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:35) i have seen first hand what this loves does to people outside the faith. when i was in The Czech Republic last year on a missions trip a Czech girl came up to my pastor and said that she could feel the love we had for one another and she accepted Christ into her life and is growing strong in her faith. if this is what fifteen highschool students can do how much more could the whole faith combined do? And how many people are turned away from Christ because of our constant fight that has been going on since the reformation?
even though we Christians don’t always interpret the Bible right does not make our salvation disappear. I was having a discussion with my pastor because i believe that Genesis should be taken litterally and i would argue until i was blue in the face and nearly made a sister stumble in her faith. he told me that there are two different doctrines A and B.
A doctrine is the important one that is needed for salvation. it is that you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and that he died for your sins not only yours but that of the world. it says it plain as day in John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” it is also essential that one understands that there is no work you can do on earth that can cover your transgressions. Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” this is the A doctrine.
B doctrine is any other doctrine, as long as it does not involve what i have written above. B doctrine would be like my belief that God made the world in six 24 hour days or whether or not Jesus had biological brothers. although it fun to discuss and debate at the end of the day no one goes to Hell because they differ in their readings of certain scripture.
Please don’t think that i’m saying that truth is relative and everyones right. by no means, there is absolute truth and we won’t know the extent of that truth until we all sit down for supper with the Lord in Heaven. however i am saying that sometime we get too work up over the little details that we miss the whole picture. if you think about it Christians generally don’t differ that much we all have a common goal commisioned by Christ “you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth” (Acts 1:8).
Just a thought but maybe as followers of the one true God we should live out Jesus’ word “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:35) i have seen first hand what this loves does to people outside the faith. when i was in The Czech Republic last year on a missions trip a Czech girl came up to my pastor and said that she could feel the love we had for one another and she accepted Christ into her life and is growing strong in her faith. if this is what fifteen highschool students can do how much more could the whole faith combined do? And how many people are turned away from Christ because of our constant fight that has been going on since the reformation?
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Grace_Seeker
Guest
What a touching story. May I share it with my congregation and others?
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kra130
Guest
by all means.
K
Kitty_Chan
Guest
Kra
Welcome to the boards if I can say so
Well said, your Pastor is wise council.
You echo the cry of my heart, it would be good for all of us just to follow “A” I wonder how God could move if His people would move as one set of hands and feet.
Welcome to the boards if I can say so
Well said, your Pastor is wise council.
You echo the cry of my heart, it would be good for all of us just to follow “A” I wonder how God could move if His people would move as one set of hands and feet.
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