Will souls with luke warm faith enter heaven

[James248]

PJM, Thanks for the response but why do people insist on quoting Romans 2:13 on this site soooo… OUT OF IT’S CONTEXT.

If you will just take the time to read the larger context of what Paul said, then, when he gets to “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, BUT THE DOOERS of the law shall be justified.” You will realize that what Paul actually said, is that the doers of the law can never be justified by keeping the Law.

If you just want to lift scripture out of it’s context and throw it out with a bunch of statements, you do a disservice to the many hearers on this site. Ro 3: 20 says, Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

I’m not sure you know what a post-protestant is, do you?

tgGodsway

What John 6 which says you have to keep coming and believing to never hunger or thirst and that you won’t gain eternal life if you don’t eat His flesh or drink His blood? What of Romans 11 which says God will.break those off the branch who don’t continue in His kindness?

 

[tgGodsway]

Hi James248.

I read your last comment about having to receive the body and blood in order to have eternal life. I think the best way to appreciate John 6 is to read it from a larger context. Jesus spoke about eternal life more than in just that one controversial context.

For instance, just prior in Jn. 6:40, Jesus said, “And this is the will of Him who sent, that everyone who sees the SON and BELIEVES in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” Jesus left out the specifics of the Eucharist here. He had not yet began to tie the two together as so many want to do.

We know that as Roman Catholics it is required for the seeker to partake of the Eucharist in order to have eternal life, If that is so, then we have a very narrow and specific way to eternal life. It is through the Eucharist. But is it through the Eucharist only? …
I don’t know the Roman Catholic answer to that. But I can show you the exact opposite;

Jesus said, John 1:12 “As many as received Him to them gave He power to become sons of God, even to them who BELIEVE on his name. - The Eucharist is not included.

he also said, John 3:18, “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not BELIEVE is condemned already, because he has not BELIEVED in the name of the Son of God. - no Eucharist here.

John 3:36 says, “He who BELIEV ES in the Son has EVERLASTING LIFE and he who does not believe the son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” - again, no Eucharist theology included.

John 6:29, “… This is the WORK of God, that you BELIEVE in Him who He sent.” Just to believe seems to be the pattern.

John 6:40 “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and BELIEVES in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day. - this is the one in the larger context of the Eucharist.

John 6:47 says, “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who BELIEVES in Me has EVERLASTING LIFE. Just believe?..

John 6:69 says, “ We have come to BELIEVE and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

John 8:24 speaking to hostile but Law keeping, Jews,
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not BELIEVE that I am He, you will die in Your sins.” No mention of the condition of keeping the Eucharist.

These patterns of how one receives eternal life should matter. No one should impose any other condition. Allow Jesus words to defend themselves.

The Eucharist is just one figurative expression. It is a call to “eat” and 'feast" on the Lord. This expression was never meant to be taken in a literal sense. The Israelites ate the manna (literally) in the desert, pointing to a spiritual truth in the N.T. That truth is that we now eat Spiritually. Jesus is our manna.

 

[thistle]

I know many Catholics and non Catholics that do believe in God and Jesus, but they attend mass or services infrequently and engage in actions that we consider sins like fornication, missing mass on Sunday, using birth control, just to mention a few. These people are good and loving friends and family. Many of them would do anything for you. These people do believe Jesus is Gods son and has died for our sins. Will these people go to hell because of these sins? I think they have just fallen into society’s ideas of right and wrong. Some of them have a hard time ( and justifiably so) listening to the church preaching what they do not practice as far as sexual morals, i.e. Priest sex scandal, I would feel terrible if I knew they were going to hell. What do you all think?

All we can objectively say with certainty is that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell and anyone dying in a state of grace is immediately saved (either Purgatory first then Heaven or straight to Heaven).

Only God knows the state of our souls at death.

 

[PJM]

Hi James248.

I read your last comment about having to receive the body and blood in order to have eternal life. I think the best way to appreciate John 6 is to read it from a larger context. Jesus spoke about eternal life more than in just that one controversial context.

First WELCOME TO CAF!** FYI, SPACE is limited on CAF**

One of the amazing things about GODS Inspired and protected Catholic-bible is its profound complexity. That one can find both metaphorical and Literal teachings in the same chapter is no accident. Right understanding can and is only granted by the HS.

Certainly one MIGHT conditionally attain heaven without ever receiving Catholic Holy Communion. BUT with equal certainty receiving Catholic Holy Communion {Jesus / GOD] in Person worthily is the greatest possible aid to attaining Eternal Heaven.

For instance, just prior in Jn. 6:40, Jesus said, “And this is the will of Him who sent, that everyone who sees the SON and BELIEVES in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” Jesus left out the specifics of the Eucharist here. He had not yet began to tie the two together as so many want to do

NOTE the word “MAY” = “conditionally”; yet both passages require the one same thing: FAITH/actual belief…

We know that as Roman Catholics it is required for the seeker to partake of the Eucharist in order to have eternal life, If that is so, then we have a very narrow and specific way to eternal life. It is through the Eucharist. But is it through the Eucharist only? …

Receiving Catholic Holy Communion is ONLY beneficial to those who receive it knowingly & worthily

I don’t know the Roman Catholic answer to that. But I can show you the exact opposite;

Jesus said, John 1:12 “As many as received Him to them gave He power to become sons of God, even to them who BELIEVE on his name. - The Eucharist is not included

The first and abiding condition for ones salvation is to not just know “of” God, but to actually Know, Love, Serve, & OBEY God in order to attain the Beatific Vision…

he also said, John 3:18, “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not BELIEVE is condemned already, because he has not BELIEVED in the name of the Son of God. - no Eucharist here

Once again salvation evolves around “belief”. And this is Literal; meaning that it hinges on actually KNOWING & Accepting ALL of His teachings that He GOD makes possible for a soul to know, accept and live.

John 3:36 says, “He who BELIEV ES in the Son has EVERLASTING LIFE and he who does not believe the son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” - again, no Eucharist theology included.

Your point is well expressed. Thank you.

Attaining Heaven is a lifelong process, with many conditions expected by God for us to meet. ALL of them begin with His TRUTHS which can be only singular per defined issue.

John 6:47 says, “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who BELIEVES in Me has EVERLASTING LIFE. Just believe?

Jn.3: 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God

Mt.19: 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Are examples of some other conditions

These patterns of how one receives eternal life should matter. No one should impose any other condition. Allow Jesus words to defend themselves.

In theory a good idea; in reality though the abundance of wrong or incomplete PERSONAL understandings lessons the merits of such a position. PLEASE Read

2 Peter 1: 19-21 & 3: 14-18

The Eucharist is just one figurative expression. It is a call to “eat” and 'feast" 9-21 & on the Lord. ** This expression was never meant to be taken in a literal sense** That truth is that we now eat Spiritually. Jesus is our manna.

OPPS, here you seem to be not teaching inline with the Catholic Magisterium:

Our Catholic Catechism:

**1324 **The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.”

1st Cor. 11:23-30
** For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you**, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." ** In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” ** For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. {BELIEVING}
That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died [WEAK= LACKING GRACE; “DEAD” MEANING SELF CONDEMNED TO HELL without repentance and conversion [BELIEF]

God Bless you!
Patrick

 

[InOmnemTerram]

These patterns of how one receives eternal life should matter. No one should impose any other condition. Allow Jesus words to defend themselves.

Scripture needs to be interpreted, and there is no such thing as Scripture simply speaking for itself, as if it were a catechism or a systematic theology manual or a law dictionary.

Your interpretation of selected verses is rooted in a very common line of fallacious reasoning when it comes to exegesis: that a particular verse is meant to be an all-exhaustive treatment of a subject, and anything that that particular verse doesn’t mention must not be relevant.

That presupposition is wrong.

If it weren’t wrong, then we would never know the answer to a very simple question: we must believe, but believe in WHAT, precisely?

Well, lots of things, such as the fact that the gospel of John actually records the words of Jesus and that it is inspired and inerrant. But I can’t believe in that without presupposing a tradition, which implies that some sort of tradition is important in determining what we believe, which in turn implies I need to know more than what one verse is telling me, which again implies I can’t treat such a verse as being exhaustive.

… and if it’s not exhaustive, the fact that it doesn’t mention the Eucharist is irrelevant.

It also doesn’t mention reading Scripture to find out what Jesus said. Does that mean we shouldn’t do that? Obviously, you don’t think so. But isn’t that being inconsistent?

The Bible is more than a handful of verses to be used as prooftexts. It’s also far more than just some collection of writings suspended in the air without any foundation in tradition. And when it’s divorced from tradition, Biblical interpretation only leads to heresy, as the earliest centuries of the Church readily demonstrate.

 

[tgGodsway]

PLEASE EXPLAIN YOURSELF AND THIS COMMENT. EACH OF THE QUOTES i SHARED WAS ORIGINAL AND UNALTERED

You seem to be going literal here. when it is a MORAL LESSON, an allegory.

SORRY, but I’m finding it difficult to follow the relevance of these as you intend them to be

2Cor.5: 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

this is precisely my point

Rom.10: 14 But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?

PUTTING ASIDE FOR THE MOMENT FALSE TEACHERS

GOD WILL, BECAUSE GOD MUST PASS FINAL JUDGEMENT BASED NOT ON WHAT WE HAVE SELECTIVELY CHOSEN TO ACCEPT, BELIEF AND LIVE; RATHER IT WILL BE IN DIVINE JUSTICE BASED ON WHAT HE, GOD, HAS MADE POSSIBLE FOR EACH SOUL TO KNOW, ACCEPT AND LIVE.

tgGodsway here: this is precisely why you don’t get this. You begin with a false premise. The premise is that God must exercise divine judgment on us. This is hugely wrong. God has already poured out all the divine judgment for our sins when He judged His own Son at the cross. There is no divine judgment for the saved in regards to sin! There is a judgment! but it has nothing to do with sin or how that sin affects your eternal destiny. see. John 5:24.
But the judgment Seat of Christ is an accountability and a reckoning based totally on our WORKS (good or bad.) Faith will have nothing to do with it at that point. and heaven or hell is not it’s purpose.

That is only WISHFUL THINKING. AND DENIES God’s infallible sense of TRUE Justice

**TAKE UP YOUR CROSS **

Mt 5:48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.
**
Lk 14:27 And whosoever doth not carry his cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.**

Phil 2:8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.

Mk 8: 34 And calling the multitude together with his disciples, he said to them: If any man will follow me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me

Mt 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mt 5:16 For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven

Lk 9:23And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ; by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world.

The One TRUE Church & Faith of Christ which existed for 1,500 years before the Reformation AND 500 years after it is the Direct, exclusuve HOLDER OF ALL of the Keys to Heaven.

Mt 10:1-5; Mt 16:15-19, John 17:17-20; Mt 28:18-20; Eph 2:20-22; Eph 4:1-7 are just some of the evidence of this reality my friend.

AND perhaps it should be so. You ARE on a CATHOLIC FORUM because the Holy Spirit has led you here. THEY ARE IN THE BIBLE FOR A REASON.

Pray much about it.

GBY

Patrick

tgGodsway: I am here because of the Holy Spirit for sure.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

If any person accepts God, and repents, he or she will go to Heaven after purification.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Hello PMJ,

That was scary… not the topic, but all the verses you quoted on this thread. I have to tell you, not one of them was quoted in it’s right context. that is scary stuff.

It is true how at the judgment seat of Christ the Church at Laodicea and all who are like her will receive a rejection because they were Luke warm. Christ language was deliberately graphic to drive home the point.

But the judgment seat of Christ (2nd. Cor. 5:10; Rom.14;10) is a judgment of the saved, not of the lost. The rejection that will be found at this judgment is based on “works” or lack there of. (1st. Cor. 3:13)

But to be rejected and denied is not the same thing as to be disowned. He loves us too much to allow any of us to crawl out of his hand.

Eternal salvation is offered to us as a free Gift (Eph. 2:8) not of good works, lest any man should boast, but there is a judgment of the saved and each one will be given a reward or a relinquishment of reward based on works. But that’s it.

My heart was pumping after reading all those scriptures through the lens of crisis!

Amen

But

The Eucharist is literal.

The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ.

The Eucharist is meant to be taken literally.

 

[PJM]

tgGodsway: I am here because of the Holy Spirit for sure.

AMEN! and that knowledge is great understanding.

If you have any questions you’d like to discuss, just let me know

PRAY very much, God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

If any person accepts God, and repents, he or she will go to Heaven after purification.

My friend, ADD and "does not die with unconfessed and unforgiven Mortal sins and then you have NAILED IT [John 20:19-23]

GBY

 

[tgGodsway]

If any person accepts God, and repents, he or she will go to Heaven after purification.

Accepting Christ IS THE PURIFICATION! Rom. 4:5

 

[tgGodsway]

The biblical example is a MORAL TEACHING that we are NOT to be luke -warm. HOWEVER being “luke-warm” by itself will not send one to hell AS YOU NOTED.

A Luke warm soul could ???] spend much time in Purgatory; BUT if it dies without a MORTAL SIN, it it will still attain heaven.

JESUS, NOR THE APOSTLES MADE ANY SUCH DISTINCTION BETWEEN MORTAL SINS AND VENIAL. THEIR VIEW ON THIS ISSUE MATTERS MORE THAN ALL ROMAN NON-WITNESSES.

Again unforgiven MORTAL SIN being the judgment factor.

Friend I don’t understand your point here:shrug:

What you seem to be claiming here is CHRIST HAVING ALREADY DONE EVERYTHING NECESSARY FOR ONES SALVATION…

That friend is a post reformation invention of convenience; and NOT what the Bible and the CC has always taught. … Luther, Calvin ect. are NOT empowered to CHANGE WHAT GOD HAS ORDAINED [Jn 20:19-23]

John 20:19-23 is the ONLY NORM for sin forgiveness. AGREED. PLEASE REMEMBER HOWEVER, THAT THE DISCIPLES WERE NOT THE ONLY ONES PRESENT IN THAT ROOM. LOOK AT LUKE’S NARRATIVE ALSO. LU.24:33

THE BINDING AND LOSENING OF FORGIVENESS WAS NOT A COMMAND SPECIFICALLY FOR THE APOSTLES. I BELEIVE THE TWO ON THE ROAD TO EMMAUS WERE ALSO GIVEN THE SAME COMMAND, ALONG WITH OTHERS, PROBABLY MARY MAGDALENE, JOANNA, AND MARY THE MOTHER OF JAMES AND OTHER WOMEN … LU.24:10

A Literally PERFECT act of Contrition can suffice for a time; BUT Only until one can and does get to Sacramental Confession. Again UNFORGIVEN Mortal sins is the issue to be addressed.

What this taking up ones cross entails is doing ALL that the RCC teaches on Faith and Moral Issues.-

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." [Romans 2:13]… DITTO OBEYING ALL THAT THE RCC teaches on Faith and Morals.
WHY DO YOU KEEP QUOTING THIS VERSE. YOU ARE USING IT OUT OF IT’S CONTEXT. PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE CHAPTER FIRST AND GET AN UNDERSTANDING OF IT, LEST YOU MAKE THE APOSTLE PAUL CONTRADICT HIMSELF WHEN READ AGAINST CHAPTER 3.

The Kingdom of Heaven is the JUST reward of all Souls that Know Christ, and FULLY OBEY ALL THAT HE TEACHES THROUGH HIS RCC, and die without unconfessed and UNFORGIVEN Mortal sins.

YOU ARE RIGHT, BUT THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS NOT THE SAME THING AS HEAVEN ITSELF. THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS TO BE REWARDED TO THE FAITHFUL WHO EARN IT BY GOOD WORKS.

I had HOPED to point out that HUMBLE Obedience to ALL that Christ teaches THROUGH HIS One True Church including Sacramental Confession {that is WHY its in the bible] are essential for one’s

Christ DID NOT DO IT ALL; what Christ Did do was make salvation possible by OUR life choices. Amen YOU MINIMIZE THE SUFFICIENCY OF THE CROSS. JESUS SAID “IT IS FINISHED!” GOD’S WRATH AGAINST SIN HAS BEEN EXTINGUISHED FOREVER AT THE CROSS. IT’S GOOD NEWS!

GBY friend,
Patrick

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Accepting Christ IS THE PURIFICATION! Rom. 4:5

No, because we can accept God, but we still sin. Even our Holy Father , Pope Francis is a sinner.

That’s why we have the Sacrament of Reconcilliation.

And as someone said on the weekend, who should know about these things,

If we don’t strive to purify ourselves during life…

If we don’t like showering in life, we go through the car wash after death ( Purgatory)’

 

[Roseeurekacross]

My friend, ADD and "does not die with unconfessed and unforgiven Mortal sins and then you have NAILED IT [John 20:19-23]

GBY

We can’t say what happens at the point of death. That is between God and the dying.

We can only say accept, love, adore our God. And repent. And strive to stay repented.

God is love, mercy forgiveness.

 

[tgGodsway]

Amen

But

The Eucharist is literal.

The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ.

The Eucharist is meant to be taken literally.

Jesus standing in his own physical and literal body, pointing to bread and saying, this is my body… is nonsensical IF he was speaking literally. Using figurative expressions was the norm for Jesus, what exactly are you looking at in the John 6 passage that changes the norm? of the many figurative expressions… I am the door… I am the vine…

 

[philipl]

I know many Catholics and non Catholics that do believe in God and Jesus, but they attend mass or services infrequently and engage in actions that we consider sins like fornication, missing mass on Sunday, using birth control, just to mention a few. These people are good and loving friends and family. Many of them would do anything for you. These people do believe Jesus is Gods son and has died for our sins. Will these people go to hell because of these sins? I think they have just fallen into society’s ideas of right and wrong. Some of them have a hard time ( and justifiably so) listening to the church preaching what they do not practice as far as sexual morals, i.e. Priest sex scandal, I would feel terrible if I knew they were going to hell. What do you all think?

First no one knows who goes to hell. But if you do something you know is a mortal sin.

1. 
   *]Its subject matter must be grave.
   *]It must be committed with full knowledge (and awareness) of the sinful action and the gravity of the offense.
   *]It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent
   
   Folk will look at the word “full” and convince themselves its a loop hole. Its my belief that if I know it’s wrong I have full knowledge.
   
   Or maybe just a whole lot of souls are stuck in purgatory until the end of time. I fully believe I am going to be in purgatory for a long time.

 

[tgGodsway]

No, because we can accept God, but we still sin. Even our Holy Father , Pope Francis is a sinner.

That’s why we have the Sacrament of Reconcilliation.

And as someone said on the weekend, who should know about these things,

If we don’t strive to purify ourselves during life…

If we don’t like showering in life, we go through the car wash after death ( Purgatory)’

Agreed we still sin, and that sin should be confessed to God, but our sin has no eternal penalty on it because Christ took it away at the cross. We POSITIONALLY have been made Righteous before God. Good news

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Jesus standing in his own physical and literal body, pointing to bread and saying, this is my body… is nonsensical IF he was speaking literally. Using figurative expressions was the norm for Jesus, what exactly are you looking at in the John 6 passage that changes the norm? of the many figurative expressions… I am the door… I am the vine…

i thought you were Catholic?

guess you are not Catholic.

but know, you have just committed sacrilege against Jesus

the Eucharitst is LITERALLY

BODY BLOOD SOUL DIVINITY OF JESUS CHRIST.

you aint going to win this one. dont try. repent, brother.

 

[PJM]

We can’t say what happens at the point of death. That is between God and the dying.

We can only say accept, love, adore our God. And repent. And strive to stay repented.

God is love, mercy forgiveness.

The RCC Teaches:

One with ubconfessed / unforgiven MORTAL sins at death is self condemned to hell

Sins can be forgive GODS WAY only through Sacramental Confession [John 20:19-23]

Or in an emergency: by making an act of “PERFECT Contrition”; only God can make the determination of PERFECT Contrition, wherein the emphasis in on LOVE of God MORE than the fear of hell and the loss of heaven.

This act of PERFECT Contrition acts as a TEMPORARY means of forgiveness; and DEMANDS that a Sacramental Confession MUST be made ASAP

An act of PERFECT Contrition on ones death bed MAY be possible; but surely is unlikely. NOT something to be counted on

GBY

 

[tgGodsway]

First no one knows who goes to hell. But if you do something you know is a mortal sin.

1. 
   *]Its subject matter must be grave.
   *]It must be committed with full knowledge (and awareness) of the sinful action and the gravity of the offense.
   *]It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent
   
   Folk will look at the word “full” and convince themselves its a loop hole. Its my belief that if I know it’s wrong I have full knowledge.
   
   IN CASES WHERE THERE IS A CONTRADICION BETWEEN LIFE STYLE AND CONFESSION, THE APOSTLE JOHN SAID, “TEST THE SPIRITS TO SEE WHETHER THEY ARE OF GOD…” SEE 1ST. JOHN 4:1-4
   
   IF THEY CONFESS JESUS TO BE THE CHRIST,… THEY DO SO BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ONLY. THEY ARE SAVED. TGGODSWAY.
   
   Or maybe just a whole lot of souls are stuck in purgatory until the end of time. I fully believe I am going to be in purgatory for a long time.