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tgGodsway
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thank you for your opinion, you sound very judgmental. I hope that is not the case. May god’s rich love and grace be yours.
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James248
Guest
There is no such thing as positional righteousness.Either you’re righteous or you’re unrighteousness.
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tgGodsway
Guest
Hello James 248. thanks for the comment but again, I disagree. positional righteousness was first expressed in the life of the patriarch Abraham in Genesis 15. God made him a promise and Abraham “believed it.” His belief, according to Genesis 15, was “counted to him for righteousness.” In other words Abraham didn’t do anything to become righteous except believe. This position with God was a gift apart from works. God saw his faith and said, YOU are righteous! But Abraham still had to allow that righteousness to be worked out, into his behavior. It eventually did over time as what we read in Genesis 22. But please do not misunderstand. If Abraham didn’t work out the righteousness God gave him, it would be sad, and he certainly would answer for it at the judgment seat of Christ, (A judgment about works,) but it would not effect the very gift itself given to Abraham. Abraham was, and is, eternally secure. This is news to make anyone have a smile. Let me continue:
This concept is alive and well in the New Testament. "But now the righteousness of God without the (keeping) of the law is manifested (revealed) being witnessed by the Law (givers) and the prophets. v22 Even the righteousness of God WHICH IS BY FAITH in Jesus Christ, to all and on all, WHO BELIEVE. v23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, v24 being JUSTIFIED=MADE RIGHTEOUS freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
Paul shows a positional righteousness here. Roman Catholics do not. Honestly, if I had to choose, I would go for the GIFT instead of trying to earn my eternal salvation. I know I cannot meet the high standard of righteousness. It is a perfect and flawless standard. It requires obedience to 100 percent of the Law, 100 percent of the time. No one has been able to do it, except one.
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tgGodsway
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PJM
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REPLY ON 2 CONSECUTIVE POST; PLEASE READ BOTH
1 OF 2
My DEAR friend in Christ, you have expressed well .a very common non-Catholic position, so I am compelled to ask: ARE YOU really a Catholic?
Permit me to share some reasons for our Catholic Beliefs
1st SOME Questions:
Would you willingly undergo a torturous DEATH based solely on the belief of the Real Presence? Not likely holding your expressed belief; yet MILLIONS have, beginning with Stephen, [ACTS 7:56-59] and all of the Apostles except John [who they tried to BOIL in Oil, but GOD saved him] lead that long list.
2nd. WHY do YOU suppose the international practice of religion is called “FAITH”?
3td. Can God, or the authors of GODS Inspired bible lie?
2 Tim. 3:16-17 “All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.
4th. Cannot GOD do ANY “Good thing?” … THIS IS the greatest of all possible “good things” Jesus [GOD] Himself]
5th. Consider the difference in the “I AM’s YOU refer too which are metaphorical, to the “THIS IS MY…. Which is literal, making “I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE” Lietral.
Isaiah 55:6-9 Seek ye the Lord, while he may be found: call upon him, while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unjust man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God: for he is bountiful to forgive. For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts
My DEAR friend in Christ, if, if your unable to accept this teaching it VERY LIKELY is due to a lack of God’s graces so necessary for GODS Faith to be comprehended…. You’re relying on common logic in the contemplation of DIVINE things. .PRAY very much in humility with a sincere heart for Faith and God WILL grant it to you
FIVE different God Inspired Authors of the NT give testimony to this reality & the more often a LESSON is taught, the more important is that teaching.
Mt 26:26-28 “And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins
Mk.14: And whilst they were eating, Jesus took bread; and blessing, broke, and gave to them, and said: Take ye. This is my body. [And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, he gave it to them. And they all drank of it. And he said to them: [COLOR=“red”]This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many."
CONTINUED ON NEXT POST
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PJM
Guest
PART 2 OF 2
**Lk. 17-20 [who was a GREEK Doctor] **“ And having taken the chalice, he gave thanks, and said: Take, and divide it among you: For I say to you, that I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, till the kingdom of God come. And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the New Testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.
Jn. 6: 47-57 & 67-70 [This SHORT version includes your expressed beliefs which too are biblical] verses 53 & 67
“Amen,“TRULY”] amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die. [CONDITIONALLY ON FAITH] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.][53] The Jews therefore strove [ARGUED] among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen,[TRULY] amen I [GOD] say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. **For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. **…[AND THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT TAKES PLACE IN CATHOLIC HOLY COMMUNION]
After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. [DENIED THE GRACE; DENIED CHRIST TEACHING AND REJECTED HIM] [BUT] Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life. And we have believed and h …NOT ALL BUT SOME DID BELIEVE…WE CALL THEM SAINTS] Have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God”
Paul: 1st. Cor. 11:23-30 “For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the New Testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice.** For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many slee**p”
SUMMARY:
Faith requires our assent to this; GODS Truth. But this is so critically important to the salvation of Souls that Christ goes even further to TEACH this reality; If, if, you have the grace to do so, GOOGLE and carefully review this site:
Eucharistic Miracles [miracles]
PLEASE let ME know if you have further questions,
God Bless you
Patrick
**Lk. 17-20 [who was a GREEK Doctor] **“ And having taken the chalice, he gave thanks, and said: Take, and divide it among you: For I say to you, that I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, till the kingdom of God come. And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the New Testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.
Jn. 6: 47-57 & 67-70 [This SHORT version includes your expressed beliefs which too are biblical] verses 53 & 67
“Amen,“TRULY”] amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die. [CONDITIONALLY ON FAITH] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.][53] The Jews therefore strove [ARGUED] among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen,[TRULY] amen I [GOD] say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. **For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. **…[AND THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT TAKES PLACE IN CATHOLIC HOLY COMMUNION]
After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. [DENIED THE GRACE; DENIED CHRIST TEACHING AND REJECTED HIM] [BUT] Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life. And we have believed and h …NOT ALL BUT SOME DID BELIEVE…WE CALL THEM SAINTS] Have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God”
Paul: 1st. Cor. 11:23-30 “For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the New Testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice.** For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many slee**p”
SUMMARY:
Faith requires our assent to this; GODS Truth. But this is so critically important to the salvation of Souls that Christ goes even further to TEACH this reality; If, if, you have the grace to do so, GOOGLE and carefully review this site:
Eucharistic Miracles [miracles]
PLEASE let ME know if you have further questions,
God Bless you
Patrick
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PJM
Guest
While it is possible that "a lot of folks’ will stuck in purgatory until the end of time; it is VERY unlikely due to these facts:
[1] We CAN pray and apply earned indulgences to these Souls: All SHOULD and MANY do
[2] God’s Mercy is greater than God’s necessary Divine Justice
[3] It is GODS DESIRE that we attain HEAVEN [1 Tim 2: 3-4]
While on earth YOU [all of us] have the opportunity to PAY BACK the debts of our sins which are accrued even when Sacramentally Confessed and Forgiven. [Temporal Punishment]
Catholic Catechism:
1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.
1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.
What is an indulgence?
“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.”
“An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin.” The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.”
God Bless you
Patrick
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James248
Guest
You misunderstand Catholicism. Salvation is a gift, but gifts MUST be received. And once we receive God’s gift of salvation, we are expected to WORK IT OUT. In the Parable of the Talents, the Lord gives to one servant 5 talents, another 3, and another 1. Did these servants do ANYTHING to earn their talents? No! But when the moment came when the servants were called to account for their talents, the Lord let those who had doubled His talents into His joy, but the servant who did not double His talent was cast into the darkness of weeping and gnashing of teeth. That is how it is with grace. God has given all sufficient grace to be saved, However, if one does not work with this grace, he will not enter God’s rest.
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steve_b
Guest
Sheryl Ann,
According to Jesus, Hell is the reality for most people
Matthew 7:13-14 ,
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a] that leads to destruction, ἀπώλεια, ] and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Luke 13:23-28 ,
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth,
Jesus, the one who judges ALL, knowing in advance what He is going to go through for our salvation, and what all humanity will go through, down to the last person born, answers that question for us.
Code:
• Jesus didn’t deny the questioner’s point.
• Jesus actually validated the point, and expanded on it. Only a few are saved.Jesus answered the point twice, and doesn’t change His answer.
Therefore, Those who die in a state of grace, (no mortal sins on their soul) but not perfect enough for a straight shot to heaven, by the grace of God, go through purification prior to entrance to heaven. [1 Corinthians 3:12-15]
They who go through purgatory are counted in with the few
What does Jesus mean there by “workers of iniquity”? ἀδικίας. ]
Here’s one example of iniquity, in God’s eyes based on the consequences mentioned for this sin
Deliberately missing mass on Sunday.
Look at the dire consequences for that action
#25 ]
If mortal sin is being blurred or even discounted today, by anybody, to cause indifference, by misapplied or false ecumenism, or false sentimentality, then the ones promoting error rather than solid teaching, will find themselves in huge trouble.
Why?
Here’s a timeless bit of advice from Ezekiel that speaks volumes for all time, to that point.
Ez 3:
17 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 18 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life. 20 Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.”
That advice is as good for Ezekiel in his day, as it is for us today and forever. That advice has no expiration date.
Regarding one’s ignorance:
Ignorance is not a get outta jail free card, nor personal defense nor a dodge, nor an escape, if one takes little effort to learn what is required of them.
** **1791 ]
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rose_kelly
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tgGodsway
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steve_b
Guest
the next passage answers the point. Jesus is the one talking in both passages
The option in both cases is between life and destruction of the person.
Luke 13:23-28 ,
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are **saved ** be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth,
On the contrary, THAT is not what "saved’ refers to . From the Greek study bible,
Original Word: σῴζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sózó
Phonetic Spelling: (sode’-zo)
Short Definition: I save, heal
Definition: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.
4982 sṓzō (from sōs, “safe, rescued”) – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin – and into His provisions (safety).
4982 (sṓzō) is the root of: 4990 /sōtḗr (“Savior”), 4991 /sōtēría (“salvation”) and the adjectival form, 4992 /sōtḗrion (what is “*saved/*rescued from destruction and brought into divine safety”).]
Note also the reference Jesus uses above to gnashing of teeth ? He’s talking about** hell.**
Matthew 8:12
Matthew 13:42
Matthew 13:50
Matthew 22:13
Matthew 24:51
Matthew 25:30
Luke 13:28
it’s referring to everlasting hell. And Jesus said, only a few are saved from it.
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steve_b
Guest
To
tgGodsway:
in addition, to my previous posts, #49 , #52
add
Matthew 25:41
Matthew 25:46
As Jesus said, only a few are saved
in addition, to my previous posts, #49 , #52
add
Matthew 25:41
Matthew 25:46
As Jesus said, only a few are saved
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tgGodsway
Guest
Hello Steve b
AWESOME NEW POST…
I’m now answering your rebuttal from last week about entering the narrow gate. I stand by my comments to the fact that the context is absent of the words “eternal” or “hell,” in Matthew’s gospel. The word saved means…. saved. We enter by the narrow gate, who is Christ. This path is narrow and difficult. But if one endures the difficulty of the path, it leads to LIFE, no more, no less.
The broad gate is a gateway of worldliness which leads to destruction. No more, no less… The qualifiers such as “eternal” “eternity” or “everlasting” or. “damnation”, or “hell” are not present in the context.
It is best to not impose these ideas unless the passage does. We must learn how to accept what is on the page first before drawing any other conclusions.
The Luke 13 passage is similar and I would agree it seems to infer a heaven or hell choice, but does not go that far. The question, “Lord will those who are saved be few?” didn’t get answered the way it was asked. Jesus uses similar qualifications as Matthew, “strive to enter by the narrow door.” MANY WILL SEEK TO ENTER BUT WILL NOT BE ABLE…” But this is all relative. In other words, this wasn’t the point. Many will be lost, but many will be saved too. How much is “many?”
But we know that Jesus is the narrow door (figuratively.) This door leads to eternal life is the point. He said in John 10:9 that He was “the door ,if anyone enters by Me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.”
Here’s the bigger point: Discipleship many times begins before conversion. A disciple is a student who learns and processes information. He, at some point will need to decide what to do with all that he has learned about Jesus. He will need to “believe,” in Jesus as the Christ,(1st. John 4:2) or not. The gateway to this process is still Jesus. But the gateway, potentially, becomes a pre-conversion path. Once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open for us’ and He will answer and say to you, I DO NOT KNOW YOU…”
Discipleship does not guarantee conversion, but certainly the opportunity is there. In Luke’s story, these unconverted Jews began to claim their rights by association. “We ate and drank in your presence, and You taught in our streets.” (LUKE 13:26) In Matthew’s gospel, these same people made claim to their good works. “We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and done MANY WONDERS in your name…” MATTHEW 7:22. But they never came to “believe” in Jesus who is the Christ.
Interestingly, in Luke’s gospel our Lord catapults the reader to (what I believe is) the wedding banquet. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets were in the kingdom of God and YOURSLEVES thrust out.
This passage should be read in light of Matthew 8:12, where the Sons of the kingdom were denied the chair at banquet much like the friend of God who wondered into the banquet but did not have on the right wedding clothes. He was thrown outside in the dark, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. see. Mt. 22:11
Of course we know that Sons and Friends of God are not found in hell.
AWESOME NEW POST…
I’m now answering your rebuttal from last week about entering the narrow gate. I stand by my comments to the fact that the context is absent of the words “eternal” or “hell,” in Matthew’s gospel. The word saved means…. saved. We enter by the narrow gate, who is Christ. This path is narrow and difficult. But if one endures the difficulty of the path, it leads to LIFE, no more, no less.
The broad gate is a gateway of worldliness which leads to destruction. No more, no less… The qualifiers such as “eternal” “eternity” or “everlasting” or. “damnation”, or “hell” are not present in the context.
It is best to not impose these ideas unless the passage does. We must learn how to accept what is on the page first before drawing any other conclusions.
The Luke 13 passage is similar and I would agree it seems to infer a heaven or hell choice, but does not go that far. The question, “Lord will those who are saved be few?” didn’t get answered the way it was asked. Jesus uses similar qualifications as Matthew, “strive to enter by the narrow door.” MANY WILL SEEK TO ENTER BUT WILL NOT BE ABLE…” But this is all relative. In other words, this wasn’t the point. Many will be lost, but many will be saved too. How much is “many?”
But we know that Jesus is the narrow door (figuratively.) This door leads to eternal life is the point. He said in John 10:9 that He was “the door ,if anyone enters by Me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.”
Here’s the bigger point: Discipleship many times begins before conversion. A disciple is a student who learns and processes information. He, at some point will need to decide what to do with all that he has learned about Jesus. He will need to “believe,” in Jesus as the Christ,(1st. John 4:2) or not. The gateway to this process is still Jesus. But the gateway, potentially, becomes a pre-conversion path. Once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open for us’ and He will answer and say to you, I DO NOT KNOW YOU…”
Discipleship does not guarantee conversion, but certainly the opportunity is there. In Luke’s story, these unconverted Jews began to claim their rights by association. “We ate and drank in your presence, and You taught in our streets.” (LUKE 13:26) In Matthew’s gospel, these same people made claim to their good works. “We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and done MANY WONDERS in your name…” MATTHEW 7:22. But they never came to “believe” in Jesus who is the Christ.
Interestingly, in Luke’s gospel our Lord catapults the reader to (what I believe is) the wedding banquet. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets were in the kingdom of God and YOURSLEVES thrust out.
This passage should be read in light of Matthew 8:12, where the Sons of the kingdom were denied the chair at banquet much like the friend of God who wondered into the banquet but did not have on the right wedding clothes. He was thrown outside in the dark, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. see. Mt. 22:11
Of course we know that Sons and Friends of God are not found in hell.
V
Vico
Guest
Yes, if the sins are actual mortal sins and they are not absolved by the time of death.
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