Will the Catholic Church go the way of the Protestant mainline?

[dzheremi]

I can also relate to what you have written, though I am nowhere near as far along as our good friend Andrew, and I seem to be taking a somewhat different route.

Anyway, as you have written you don’t live on the internet, you likewise won’t worship there, either. I suppose then what you can go forward by is the examples that you have in front of you in our immediate area. It can be rather discouraging, can’t it? Certainly, in my time as a Catholic I met some Catholics who seemed to me to be entirely orthodox, and no doubt some of them might have been Orthodox had their circumstances been different. But that’s neither here nor there. The externals that you see are just that: externals, but also provide brief glimpses into the faith that is in the heart of the people. Suggesting that might make some people upset (sounds too much like Pharisaical thinking or something), but think about it: Some people really do have the “spirituality” of a rock concert, and so they attend the “rock’n’roll” church and just can’t understand why the rest of us won’t get with the program (maaaaaaan). And some people are severe, worshiping in their minds in a medieval monastery while all manner of irreverence goes on around them. I’d love to say “it takes all kinds”, but no. No it certainly does not. I absolutely repudiate that kind of thinking. That does not mean that I think we should all be rigid, prostrating robots, only that we are to be sustained by apostolic Christian teaching and practice, because outside of that we will eventually starve, wither away, and die. And yes that means that certain things do not fit. Just as it does not work to imbibe all the sex, violence, and filth of hours of prime-time TV, turn the TV off and immediately begin praising God and His commandments in prayer, it does not work to follow all manner of “developed doctrine” that was not found among the Early Church Fathers and still maintain that your Church holds the faith of the early Church, unaltered and pure and to remain so forever.

So…I don’t know how to answer your question, OP, other than to say that it seems like it already has. Sure, it’s a matter of degree (there are many very traditional Catholic people), but that’s not really good enough.

 

[dzheremi]

Oh, I should clarify: “Some people” who are this way or that way is basically everyone all the time. One thing I’ve learned from my time struggling to be Orthodox entirely in isolation (which is impossible) is that I am the rock’n’roll guy, the severe guy, the “I just don’t feel like it today” guy…the “but I prayed yesterday!” guy. All of those are me, often within the same day! Which is all the more reason I had to flee from the Catholic Church. It seems like many within it are predisposed to cater to this vacillating rather than establish a firm rule to control and curtail it. As I have written many times before, the Catholic Church does not strike me as serious. I want to be.

 

[waxwing]

As the topic says.

I am attempting to throw myself back into the messy business of finding the Church, a worthy endeavor, but one which entails all sorts of stress and controversy.

I am in the odd position of attending a Protestant church, while sitting on the fence between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I admire the attempt at (small ‘o’) orthodoxy by my Protestant church, and I have friends there, but were it not for my wife’s love of the church, I would likely have none of it, choosing instead to alternate my Sundays between the local Catholic and Orthodox houses of worship. However, as any married converts or seekers know, the search for the Church becomes much more complicated when family is involved.

Since family is involved, I am very reluctant to pull my family away from a church that believes in the Bible, upholds traditional Christian morality (aside from the usual Protestant divorce and contraception exceptions), and possesses an evangelical zeal, only to take them somewhere that does not have these good qualities.

The difficulty is that I see two Catholicisms. On the Internet, I can go to Catholic Answers, EWTN, InsideCatholic, the National Catholic Register, and a host of blogs maintained by orthodox, faithful Catholics. These Catholics hold to the true faith, they prefer and are somehow able to find reverent liturgies, and they defend the teachings of the Church.

However, I do not live on the Internet, my vast amount of time on the computer notwithstanding, so I must attend mass at a real Catholic church in the real world. And real Catholic churches in the real world are, as the title suggests, going the way of the Protestant mainline. Now, they are not all doing this, but enough of them are for it to be a source of alarm. Instead of a towering Gothic cathedral, with incense and chant, a bit of Latin, and an orthodox homily, we are more likely to find a “Christian community in the Catholic tradition,” where the theology of the priest and laity alike is indistinguishable from that of the Episcopal church down the street, the art and architecture are stripped of any majesty or beauty, and communion is served by a row of thirty EMHC’s. If we can make it through RCIA with our faith intact, perhaps we can be orthodox members of an unorthodox parish, but it is still a bit depressing.

By contrast, the Orthodox church in our neighborhood is beautiful, despite its small size; the liturgy is reverent, and the people apparently care about preserving the faith. Orthodoxy is a faith defended and lived by the people, not guarded by an elite in Moscow or Istanbul (sorry, the Turks changed the name; walls lose to artillery every time), islands of truth in the midst of a Church overrun with heresy. Now, it may be that in the “old country,” Orthodoxy has the same problems as Catholicism has here. I do not know. What I do know is that I want to raise my children in a Church that teaches the pure and holy truth of Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church looks great on paper, but I cannot help but fear it will not last.

“But the gates of Hell will never prevail against the Church!” some may protest, and I agree. As a non-Catholic, however, I am not yet convinced that passage applies to the (Roman) Catholic Church. It could be that the Catholic Church will be like the Anglican Communion, slowly falling into heresy, with small pockets of resistance holding out until they finally pass away. As the orthodox Anglicans are jumping ship to join the Catholic Church, perhaps someday the orthodox Catholics will jump ship to become Orthodox?

Then again, the Catholic Church has been through worse, so perhaps it will pull through and come out stronger on the other side. What do you all think?

Interesting thread here. I can see what you are saying about the two churches one on the web and the other in the real world, all I can say is that in any church and the larger it the more this principle applies there is going to a great variation with its members beliefs, its practices and its desire to grow closer to Christ as a Church. This applies to the Mainlines, the Evangelicals and the rest that may not neatly fit either of those categories, So I don’t see this as only a Catholic issue. The Catholic Church is not going any where it has stood the test of time and will continue to do so. Regarding going down the same path as the Mainline’s? Again to a certain extend some churches and or members will and some won’t…the Mainline too are a diverse bunch and just my personal preference here - I’d rather them “follow” some of the more Conservative Mainline’s than a lot of the Evangelical/Non Denominationals…but thats just my own little editorial comment

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

I see that according to your profile you live in the Tacoma area. The good news is that the FSSP has opened a parish in nearby Seattle: northamericanmartyrs.org/ You might consider contacting them about being received into the Church. I very much doubt you’d have to worry about liberalism in any of their parish programs and ministries. Just good, solid, orthodox Catholicism.

I have been intrigued by that parish for some time. I would like to visit, even if attending every Sunday may prove difficult.

And don’t worry about your children. There are still plenty of good, orthodox Catholic universities and seminaries in this country. Just do some research and of course we are always here to help.

Indeed. My daughter is only ten weeks old (born on Christmas!), so a great deal could change in that time.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

You should be aware that the Greek Orthodox now permits contraception ‘for serious reasons’ which is exactly the wording of the Anglican resolution on the topic back in the 1930’s. Of course no Anglican mentions ‘serious reasons’ now nor will any GOC priest in a few years time, it is the thin end of a very wide wedge.

Definitely worthy of note.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Entering the Catholic Church in this day feels like a battle, though perhaps it has always been such. I feel like a soldier approaching a great city under siege. First I must fight my way through the besieging hordes. Upon reaching the gate and entering the city, I find that many within the city have rebelled against the king and are attempting to aid the besieging force. The walls are solid, and the defenders on the wall are strong; it is the traitors within who are the greatest threat.

 

[benidict]

Why does the label American Catholic seem like another denomination to me?

I dont like that label either. My dog tags say Roman Catholic.

 

[benidict]

I am convinced that there is about to be great ‘falling away’ from the Church. The election of one more Pope who refuses to change 2,000 years of teaching will cause a large number of the ‘progessives’ to leave, either to join the Episcopalians or to form some form of ‘Progressive Catholic Church’, probably based in the US. The fact that any Pope bending to the will of the progressives would render the Church’s claims to be the Church founded by Jesus to be a joke seems to escape them. If the Church apes the Episcopalians, it would appear to many to make **them **the Church Jesus founded!

You should be aware that the Greek Orthodox now permits contraception ‘for serious reasons’ which is exactly the wording of the Anglican resolution on the topic back in the 1930’s. Of course no Anglican mentions ‘serious reasons’ now nor will any GOC priest in a few years time, it is the thin end of a very wide wedge.

There will always be Catholics faithful to the Magisterium, comparatively few in number possibly, and there will always be a reliable Magisterium because Jesus promised it would be so. Forget the music, forget the admitted beauty of some non-Catholic liturgy. There is nothing more beautiful than truth, we must find it and cling doggedly to it through thick and thin, better and worse, whatever others may do.

Steve D. I never thought about it like this, my dear Brother. but if you are correct, then the final trial and return of Christ could be very close indeed. We are always supposed to keep watch. But When we elect another Pope who will stick to the truth, and there is a mass exodus of the left,(pardon, no pun intended.) Then we really should be looking for the soon return of Jesus. What you say makes alot of sense. And It points to the Holy Catholic Church, that this prophecy refers to. I think some of our protestant bretheren would even sit up and take notice. Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

I have been intrigued by that parish for some time. I would like to visit, even if attending every Sunday may prove difficult.

That is the problem I have with attending the TLM. On any given Sunday, I am about forty or so minutes away from the nearest TLM. I suffer from transportation issues so it makes it difficult. I’d love to live within walking distance.

I will say that it would be definitely worth it if you can find a way to make it work.

Indeed. My daughter is only ten weeks old (born on Christmas!), so a great deal could change in that time.

One trend I have noticed is how bitter and desperate liberals in the Church have become. They actually appear to be breaking away, at least in small numbers. Just consider the Women “Priests” organization that claims to be “ordaining” women to the Roman Catholic priesthood. Also consider the independent “Catholic” churches that are gay affirming. Why are they breaking away and doing this of their authority? They now know they have no hope of taking over the Church. In twenty years or so, I would not be surprised to find that most of the Catholic liberals have left the Church for the Episcopal Church or some kind of liberal independent “Catholic” communion of their own making, totally unrelated with the Roman Catholic Church.

You might enjoy reading this: firstthings.com/article/2010/01/christianity-lite While I am not sure the author is completely correct, I feel she makes an excellent point on how liberalism begins to get a foothold in a church.

As far as Orthodoxy is concerned, if the Orthodox presence in America grows, I believe it is inevitable that more members of the laity, possibly backed by some liberal clergy, will develop liberalism and a lukewarm practice. Americans are deeply fascinated by tradition yet unwilling to truly embrace it. The solution, in the minds of many in our postmodern culture, is to invent some kind of “affirming Catholicism.”

 

[Mickey]

I can relate to just about all you have written here. The reasons you outlined are why I became Orthodox.

I also experienced the same…and more!

 

[catharina]

I thank you all for your kind and encouraging words. I must confess that much of my fear about the state of the Catholic Church comes from online complaints, rather than personal experience, so it is nice to see others who are more optimistic.

My first Catholic mass was in a small multi-use chapel on an American base in Baghdad, Iraq. There was nothing special about the building, and there was no pipe organ or choir of monks, but there was a quiet dignity to the service. I was very much in awe, and I went back when I could. When I returned to the United States, I began attending the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist, in Savannah, Georgia, a beautiful church with beautiful music and art. It was there I attended an orthodox RCIA class for a time.

It was only after encountering mass elsewhere, and discovering that it was not all the calm solemnity of my first mass, or the glorious majesty of the masses in Savannah, that I began to experience some level of disillusionment. That, coupled with the tales of what has happened since that council [emphasis copied from so many others], has worried me. Attending an Anglican service in Dublin in an old medieval church (Christ Church Cathedral), and seeing how beautiful that service was, in contrast, did not help, either.

I worry that my wife and I will attend an RCIA class where we will not be taught the teaching of the Church, and I, ignorant layman that I am, will have to teach her what the Catholic Church really teaches. I worry that my daughter will be taught in CCD that someday there will be female priests and that the Church is fallible. I worry that my daughter could someday attend a Catholic university, such as Seattle University, that offered internships at Planned Parenthood. I worry that, if I have a son someday who wants to become a priest, he will attend a seminary where he will come out with more doubts and confusion than when he entered.

I don’t think these are unreasonable worries. My Protestant church is full of lapsed Catholics who left the Church because they never learned the faith. I don’t want that to happen to my children or grandchildren.

I love the idea of the Catholic Church. I love chivalry and the Middle Ages. I love reading Tolkien and Chesterton. I admire the moral stands laid out in official Church teaching. I want to be Catholic. I just hope the Church I want to enter actually exists and will continue to exist.

What, pray tell, is a REASONABLE worry?

If your Protestant church is “full of lapsed Catholics,”
I have to doubt (strongly) that they left the Faith due to poor catechesis.
It’s much more likely that they followed the norms of relativism - finding
the ban on contraception to be a great stumbling block. Forgive me
if I sound cynical, but it’s quite likely that in today’s relativist society,
the “easier” path had the most appeal. In general, Protestant denominations
are far more likely to compromise issues than is true within the Catholic faith.

As for worries - St. Paul himself tells us:
"Have no anxieties about tomorrow.
Today has plenty of its own."

IOW, dismiss your worries, reasonable or unreasonable!

Worrying about how the Catholic Church MIGHT change
is akin to worrying that Our Lord will be UNfaithful to His Own
promise to protect His church from falling, even to the end of the world.

He has said He will be with us ALWAYS, even to end of the
world - and the gates of hell will never prevail against His Church.

That’s more than good enough for me.

 

[Cardinalsong]

Entering the Catholic Church in this day feels like a battle, though perhaps it has always been such. I feel like a soldier approaching a great city under siege. First I must fight my way through the besieging hordes. Upon reaching the gate and entering the city, I find that many within the city have rebelled against the king and are attempting to aid the besieging force. The walls are solid, and the defenders on the wall are strong; it is the traitors within who are the greatest threat.

Great analogy Iambic!

:irish3: