Will the Catholic Church one day regain landmark buildings that were stolen from it?

[Duesenberg]

then overmorrow the Pope would be on the phone with the Ecumenical Patriarch signing the building over to him.

That I seriously doubt…

He would have to consider the impact to Eastern Catholics. Although EP Bart is a nice man – it might trigger him to bring the GOC back into the Catholic fold.

 

[Profete]

erely man-made objects built upon land which is divided by man-made lines. As the prophet said, this too is vanity.

Eastern Catholics are one of the main obstacles for the Orthodox-Catholic reunion. Patriarch Bartholomew actually asked Pope John Paul II not to celebrate anniversary of the Greek-Catholic Ukrainian Church. (The anniversary of Brest-Litovsk Union)
And in what universe would anyone give Hagia Sophia to the Holy See instead Orthodox Church? lol

 

[Duesenberg]

Eastern Catholics are one of the main obstacles for the Catholic-Orthodox reunion.

That I seriously doubt. After all the ancient suri juris churches have the right to return to the Catholic Church.

By far the overwhelming obstacle is the horrible disunity amongst the different Orthodox state churches. The Orthodox are not unified and I cannot imagine them ever really being unified. Just too much secular baggage between them. While I can definitely see some individual Orthodox state churches returning (or some would suggest, continuing to return) to the Catholic Church. I could even see the Greeks returning, but the Russians never will. Their ego and inferiority complex just wouldn’t allow it – save for the grace of God’s intervention of course.

Patriarch Bartholomew actually asked Pope John Paul II not to celebrate anniversary of the Ukrainian Catholic Church. (The anniversary of Brest-Litovsk Union)

I’m not sure this is true, but if it is I would ask “so”?

And in what universe would anyone give Hagia Sophia to the Catholic Church instead Orthodox state churches? lol

The one that includes Earth.

 

[Profete]

lol the Greeks rebaptize Catholic converts to Orthodoxy, Russians don’t. Greeks have superior complex, and Russians have inferior, and these to complexes protect Orthodoxy. lol The Greeks are actually the last who would sign the union with Rome.
And these are not state Churches, most of their jurisdictions go broader than the main state their Patriarchal See is in. And Orthodox are far more united than the Catholics, because Orthodox don’t have Liturgical abuse problem or dissidents on the teachings of the Church. Look what happened to the Catholic Church after Vatican II.
Orthodox are even more terrified of Rome today than before Vatican II.
You are really uninformed on this matter.
And as long as you push agenda “Orthodox to return to the Catholic fold” it wont work, Orthodox never went anywhere, for the Orthodox, it is Rome that left the fold by innovating.

 

[Duesenberg]

lol the Greeks rebaptize Catholic converts to Orthodoxy, Russians don’t. Greeks have superior complex, and Russians have inferior, and these to complexes protect Orthodoxy. lol The Greeks are actually the last who would sign the union with Rome.

And these are not state Churches, most of their jurisdictions go broader than the main state their Patriarchal See is in. And Orthodox are far more united than the Catholics, because Orthodox don’t have Liturgical abuse problem or dissidents on the teachings of the Church. Look what happened to the Catholic Church after Vatican II.

Orthodox are even more terrified of Rome today than before Vatican II.

You are really uninformed on this matter.

And as long as you push agenda “Orthodox to return to the Catholic fold” it wont work, Orthodox never went anywhere, for the Orthodox, it is Rome that left the fold by innovating.

Sadly, you are the one that appears to be uninformed…

 

[Profete]

You are uninformed, you attempted to mock the Orthodox Church by saying Catholic Church was founded in 33AD and Orthodox was not. lol

 

[twf]

It is a stretch to argue that the modern Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch is the true, legitimate successor to St. Peter / St. Ignatius of Antioch. I would argue that the Melkite Greek Catholics have a better claim… the canonical Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch resumed communion with Rome in the 18th century and in reaction to this, the Patriarch of Constantinople set up a parallel line of patriarchs…
Going back much farther, you could argue that the Syriac Orthodox Church has a much better claim to the Antiochian throne than either the Greek Orthodox or the Melkite Catholics.

 

[Duesenberg]

It is a stretch to argue that the modern Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch is the true, legitimate successor to St. Peter / St. Ignatius of Antioch. I would argue that the Melkite Greek Catholics have a better claim… the canonical Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch resumed communion with Rome in the 18th century and in reaction to this, the Patriarch of Constantinople set up a parallel line of patriarchs…

Going back much farther, you could argue that the Syriac Orthodox Church has a much better claim to the Antiochian throne than either the Greek Orthodox or the Melkite Catholics.

I concur…

 

[TK421]

Church buildings have a tendency to exchange ownership for a variety of reasons. The crystal cathedral was a major protestant church until it was purchased by the Catholic diocese a few years back.

There would have to be a major shift in the regional demographics for the Hagia Sophia or Westminster Abbey to ever become a Catholic place of worship again. Those ancient structures, though inspiring, are also extremely expensive to maintain and I agree that the 21st century CC would simply build or buy something cheaper, unless the funds were sourced from outside of the local diocese.

I can tell you this much. If you want to shut the conversation down before it even begins, start the discussion with “landmark buildings that were stolen from it.”

 

[AngelusDomini]

Westminster Abbey?

The Collegiate Church of St Peter is a Royal Peculiar. I don’t think any negotiation is going to take place with that one. (That said Catholic priests have been allowed to say Mass in other Royal Peculiars with much ease as a gracious favour of the Sovereign.)

 

[Profete]

ter claim… the canonical Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch resumed communion with Rome in the 18th century and in reaction to this, the Patriarch of Constantinople set up a parallel line of patriarchs…

Orthodox Church is not obsessed with this “Peterology”, that is Rome’s thing, to push for it’s universal jurisdiction, which goes against the Tradition, as Rome itself has admitted in a theological dialog with the Orthodox Church in Chemsy in 2016.
For the Orthodox, it is important that Orthodox bishops and their flocks are in communion with each other.
It is according to the Teachings of the Orthodox Church, that if you wrong the faith, you seize to be the Church, in other words, true successors to Apostles are those who keep the Orthodox Faith, and not those who keep cities which Peter used to visit.

 

[Hope_Philomena]

I can tell you this much. If you want to shut the conversation down before it even begins, start the discussion with “landmark buildings that were stolen from it.”

Exactly. What was your goal, OP, in making this thread?

 

[2towers]

It would be interesting to see what would happen if we were to simply send them a bill!

 

[Isca]

Funny you should post this. I was thinking yesterday about a beautiful priory in a village called Cartmel not far from where I live, which is now CofE. It was originally founded in the 12th century for a community of Augustinian Canons.

At the Dissolution, the prior fled, but his deputy and some of the other canons were executed for resisting, along with a number of villagers who’d tried to help them. I assume they would be recognised as martyrs?

 

[phil19034]

This will never happen for at least 2 reasons:

1. The Church is not it’s buildings, but rather the physical Church is the bishops and his priests all in communion with the See of Peter. Throughout history, Church buildings have been built and abandoned/destroyed/stolen. Yet the Church continues. To attempt to negotiate for these buildings back would in a way negate this and places too much emphasis on the physical buildings.
2. The unintended consequences / fallout of such actions are frankly not worth the price.

God bless

 

[phil19034]

The Patriarchate of Constantinople was also Catholic long before the Orthodox state churches existed.

Yes, but that’s not how it works. The Catholic Church has suppressed the Patriarchate of Constantinople in the Catholic Church because we recognized the Patriarchate of Constantinople in the Eastern Orthodox Church as the true Patriarchate of Constantinople.

Therefore, the Patriarchate of Rome (though that title was suppressed by Pope Benedict XVI) would never impose such a thing. If Rome were to request the return of the Hagia Sophia, the Pope would request that it is returned to the Patriarchate of Constantinople.

However, again, this is a moot point, because Rome would never make such a request/demand in the first place.

God Bless

 

[phil19034]

Spyridon:

then overmorrow the Pope would be on the phone with the Ecumenical Patriarch signing the building over to him.

That I seriously doubt…

He would have to consider the impact to Eastern Catholics. Although EP Bart is a nice man – it might trigger him to bring the GOC back into the Catholic fold.

No, the Pope would give it to Ecumenical Patriarch because, as I’ve said before, the Catholic Church recognized that the real dioceses and Patriarchy over there is the Patriarch of Constantinople. That just one of the reasons why the local dioceses there called Istanbul and not Constantinople

 

[Duesenberg]

No, the Pope would give it to Ecumenical Patriarch

Not necessarily, no. It would depend on many things – including the terms on which the Catholic Church received the property and if the Greek Orthodox Church had the resources to properly care for it.

 

[Profete]

Greek Orthodox Church has resources for it’s churches. Unfortunately it is the Catholic churches that are getting closed down due to the lack of resources.

 

[Duesenberg]

Greek Orthodox Church has resources for it’s churches. Unfortunately it is the Catholic churches that are getting closed down due to the lack of resources.

That’s simply not true. Then again most GO Churches in the US are tiny,