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Dum_Spiro_Spero
Guest
Constant statements like this…and we are the ones that need to change LOL Why do you hate us so much?
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StTommyMore
Guest
I don’t hate the SSPX. I pray that they restore communion. I hate their arrogant attitudes. I hate that they reject Vatican II. I hate that they are critical of one of our greatest popes. I hate that they reject the Novus Ordo and question its validity. I hate that they question the faith of everyone who is not exactly like them.
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Joe_5859
Guest
Interesting perspective, but I’d have to disagree. The OP was all about an NCR article leading him to wonder if the “liberals” would schism from the Church. There is no good reason such a discussion needs to even mention the SSPX let alone get side-tracked for 100 posts in order to rehash the whole SSPX debate. There are many other separate threads for that particular topic.
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reggieM
Guest
The NCR-type Catholics I know (sadly, I know many) do tend to proclaim how much they know better than everyone else, and they are the only ones who have their eyes open to “what Jesus really meant”. They’ll also proclaim that they are the most humble also. 
Of course, they think they know what’s best for the Church and they are working to change things into their own image. The Pope is “wrong” about important things, and they dredge up historical precedents to prove that the “early Church accepted …” whatever, or “there’s no reason to mandate …” whatever.
So, their world is anarchy because we’re supposed to follow their opinions, and supposedly they (and only they) know what God truly wants.
When I ask why they think that they’re better than the rank-and-file Catholics like myself (they may well be), they proclaim “Oh, no – I’m not better than anyone. I’m big a sinner in need of grace. I never said I was holier than anyone else!”
Is that phoney humility? Well, I am no one to judge, certainly.
But I can ask: “Why should I follow you?” You’re corrupt, sinful and spouting off opinions claiming that you know more than the Pope and everyone else.
Do you work miracles? No.
Do you show any works of holiness beyond anyone else? No.
Is your sanctity attractive? On the contrary, I am pushed away by your hostility and arrogance and pompousness.
Do you humbly submit to anyone except your own cultish group of liberals? No.
Can you admit that you’re wrong about anything? No.
So, like the Bible says - perhaps they claim to be wise but are really fools. Again, I can’t judge for sure. Perhaps they’re right about many things.
But being right and being holy are very similar – since we have to be right about the most important thing, and that is our own soul.
If a person is rash, contradictory, hostile and exaggerating his own importance (or the importance of liberals), is that person truly capable of judging his own soul wisely?
It’s very easy to be deceived about our own self-importance, or our belief that we are the saviors of the Church.
The people who claim to be acting just like the saints did, and boast about how enlightened they are – always seem to me to be acting the opposite of the way the saints did.
Do you really know what God wants for the Church? If so, I’d love to see some evidence that you really do.
Of course, they think they know what’s best for the Church and they are working to change things into their own image. The Pope is “wrong” about important things, and they dredge up historical precedents to prove that the “early Church accepted …” whatever, or “there’s no reason to mandate …” whatever.So, their world is anarchy because we’re supposed to follow their opinions, and supposedly they (and only they) know what God truly wants.
When I ask why they think that they’re better than the rank-and-file Catholics like myself (they may well be), they proclaim “Oh, no – I’m not better than anyone. I’m big a sinner in need of grace. I never said I was holier than anyone else!”
Is that phoney humility? Well, I am no one to judge, certainly.
But I can ask: “Why should I follow you?” You’re corrupt, sinful and spouting off opinions claiming that you know more than the Pope and everyone else.
Do you work miracles? No.
Do you show any works of holiness beyond anyone else? No.
Is your sanctity attractive? On the contrary, I am pushed away by your hostility and arrogance and pompousness.
Do you humbly submit to anyone except your own cultish group of liberals? No.
Can you admit that you’re wrong about anything? No.
So, like the Bible says - perhaps they claim to be wise but are really fools. Again, I can’t judge for sure. Perhaps they’re right about many things.
But being right and being holy are very similar – since we have to be right about the most important thing, and that is our own soul.
If a person is rash, contradictory, hostile and exaggerating his own importance (or the importance of liberals), is that person truly capable of judging his own soul wisely?
It’s very easy to be deceived about our own self-importance, or our belief that we are the saviors of the Church.
The people who claim to be acting just like the saints did, and boast about how enlightened they are – always seem to me to be acting the opposite of the way the saints did.
Do you really know what God wants for the Church? If so, I’d love to see some evidence that you really do.
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kozlosap
Guest
Do you humbly submit to anyone except your own cultish group of liberals? No.
I think if you included both liberals and ultra conservatives that statement would prove to be more true.
Somewhere there is a comfortable middle ground where the majority of us are just trying to live our Faith in our daily lives in the best way we can. If I were to do a poll at my 7:30 am Sunday mass, I would wager than less than 25% would even know what I was talking about if I asked them if they agreed with SSPX members. Also, if I conducted a poll about being pro-life, I would guess that at least 75% are pro-life. You see? There is a vast middle group that needs to be heard and taken into account. My parish is huge. We have a large elementary school attached and we also serve the most highly rated Jesuit high school within 100 miles. The main focus of our parish is to serve the children and young people and to serve the less fortunate among us. Our Holy Mother Church has hospitals, hospices, schools and universities and charities for everyone whether they are Catholic or not. What other church does this? We have so much to be together on, but instead we like to set ourselves apart because of the liturgy we prefer or the role women are allowed to play in our parishes. Maybe if some of us decided to serve others and not ourselves (me included) there would not be reason to even worry about a schism in the Church.
I think if you included both liberals and ultra conservatives that statement would prove to be more true.
Somewhere there is a comfortable middle ground where the majority of us are just trying to live our Faith in our daily lives in the best way we can. If I were to do a poll at my 7:30 am Sunday mass, I would wager than less than 25% would even know what I was talking about if I asked them if they agreed with SSPX members. Also, if I conducted a poll about being pro-life, I would guess that at least 75% are pro-life. You see? There is a vast middle group that needs to be heard and taken into account. My parish is huge. We have a large elementary school attached and we also serve the most highly rated Jesuit high school within 100 miles. The main focus of our parish is to serve the children and young people and to serve the less fortunate among us. Our Holy Mother Church has hospitals, hospices, schools and universities and charities for everyone whether they are Catholic or not. What other church does this? We have so much to be together on, but instead we like to set ourselves apart because of the liturgy we prefer or the role women are allowed to play in our parishes. Maybe if some of us decided to serve others and not ourselves (me included) there would not be reason to even worry about a schism in the Church.
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Ockham
Guest
That’s a lot of hatred. Perhaps you should speak to your priest about this.
I’ve never heard anyone in the SSPX say ‘my way or you’re going to Hell.’ I have heard that from the Church though. All the SSPX is doing is emphasizing Church teaching. For that we should all be thankful. The goal is to get souls to Heaven, wouldn’t you agree?
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StTommyMore
Guest
If your statement is true, then I should never hear another criticism of the Novus Ordo from you.
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kozlosap
Guest
Spend a few hours reading over SSPX posts from the last year or so and then I think you will begin to see both sides! I know it’s hard for humans to take off whichever “hat” they are wearing, but it’s a real eyeopener to re-read those threads.
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maurin
Guest
Tommy, slow down. Breathe a little.
It’ll be ok Tommy. Our Lord watches over the Church, and guides events, bringing good out of evil. He asked His Church to tend the entire crop. He told us He’ll tend to the tares.
It’s pretty sobering if you think about it. Terrifying, actually.
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maurin
Guest
Pretty eye opening to read the posts on the current ones. The bile isn’t spewing forth from the Traditionalists, kozlosap. What happened yesterday may have been bad, but ehat’s happening today ain’t too rosy either.Spend a few hours reading over SSPX posts from the last year or so and then I think you will begin to see both sides! I know it’s hard for humans to take off whichever “hat” they are wearing, but it’s a real eyeopener to re-read those threads.
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reggieM
Guest
I fully agree. I am able to attend daily Mass at a few different parishes in my area and even though many are liberalized, I meet some great Catholics there (who are far holier and better than I am). They do need to be recognized. I’ve also talked with enough liberal priests to try to have some understanding of their views. Why do they take such insane positions on important matters? I try to get an answer to that.
That sounds like a great parish, to my way of thinking. We are part of the Mystical Body, and the good works done are shared by all. The thing that most set apart the early Christians from the pagan populace was the Christians’ intense focus on charitable works to the unfortunate. Everybody had doctrines that they would proclaim and argue about, but almost nobody had that kind of charity and love towards others – especially towards the unwanted people. That’s what won many conversions (as martyrdom did also).
It’s my hope that liberals will learn to have a more loving embrace of the teachings of the Church and to move away from dissidence and the belief that “they are right and everyone else is wrong”.
Again, I can’t see evidence that they are right in their criticism of the Magisterium. What proof can they give? Some liberals I know are the most unhappy people and are filled with anger. They prefer to drive people away in order to preserve their pure-liberalism, which is a very strange thing since they’re supposed to be inclusive.
As for ultratraditionalists … I will take the hint offered elsewhere and note that they’re really off-topic in this discussion.
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maurin
Guest
Reggiem,
In all fairness we Traditionalists did not derail the thread. Possibly in order to deflect attention away from the defaco Liberal schism, mud was slung at the Society.
Below is post #12. It was not posted by a Traditionalist. However it did contain inaccurate and insulting information. It was because of his/her bias that the thread got derailed.
In all fairness we Traditionalists did not derail the thread. Possibly in order to deflect attention away from the defaco Liberal schism, mud was slung at the Society.
Below is post #12. It was not posted by a Traditionalist. However it did contain inaccurate and insulting information. It was because of his/her bias that the thread got derailed.
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QuisUtDeus72
Guest
Fine. THIS Traditionalist will put it back on track. (I won’t comment on the irony of the situation; it should be apparent.
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ProVobis
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StTommyMore
Guest
That looks like a weird amalgamation of New Age spiritualism and Catholicism. Like paganism with Catholic window dressing.
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Ockham
Guest
What is that all about?
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ProVobis
Guest
To tell you the truth, I’ve driven by this place for 30 years and I don’t know. I am still hoping someone tells me before the curiosity in me takes hold.
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reggieM
Guest
Maurin,
I wasn’t clear enough with my reply so you misunderstood.
When I said “they are off-topic”, I meant “the topic of ultra-traditionalists” is off-topic.
So, I could have said “it is off-topic” and that would have been better.
When I said “they are off-topic”, you misunderstood that as if I was saying “the ultratraditionalists here on CAF are taking the thread off-topic”.
I didn’t mean that and I wasn’t talking about anyone here. I was talking about the topic. That topic is off-topic.
The question of who derailed it is of no interest to me. I can’t see what value there would be in knowing who was to blame for that.
I’ll add also that a more careful reading of the phrase “they’re really off-topic” would mean what I said it meant here. Otherwise, you’d have to consider me to be pretty ignorant and obtuse. How could I claim that “the ultra-traditionalists are off-topic” (which ones? all of them? how do I even know which are ultra-traditionalist? Why would I care to make a sweeping condemnation about people who I don’t even know?) – without criticizing the entire group and claiming that “they’re off-topic”?
I’ll add this also – normally, one should say that a post is off-topic, not a person. In fact, it doesn’t make sense to say that any person is off-topic since we’re not judging the person, but rather, individual posts. We could say that a person “has gone off-topic” but not that a person “is off-topic” (without a qualifier). The person “is off-topic in this post”.
I’ve said enough now to “have gone off-topic” myself.
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Charlotte1776
Guest
I don’t think there will be a formal schism of the Church where a large group of people leave at once because they tried to change the Church but found that they couldn’t. The schisms are on an individual basis. People who don’t like what the Chuch teaches stick around trying to change it, then leave after they get frustrated and end up in a church that tells them what they want to hear. I don’t think there is going to be another incident like in the 1500s where people left en masse.
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Aramis
Guest
The Liberal Catholic Church is a schismatic group (which schismed from the Old Catholics, who schismed after Vatican I…).
While the liberals still nominally in the Catholic Church united to the pope may schism further, I suspect more of them may find their way to the LCC and the Old Catholics, both of which groups already have female clergy. And, ironically, the Trent liturgy in English…
While the liberals still nominally in the Catholic Church united to the pope may schism further, I suspect more of them may find their way to the LCC and the Old Catholics, both of which groups already have female clergy. And, ironically, the Trent liturgy in English…
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