Will the Liberal Church 'Schism'?

[EudistCJM]

Hello everyone,

I was very distressed to see in the National Catholic Reporter, which purports to be actually Catholic, articles which encouraged women’s ordination, praised politicians for defying the bishops (most specifically in regards to abortion), and the like.

These liberals tend to raise the Social Teaching of the Church, which is great and should be cherised, but they raise the social teaching over and above the infallible teachings on faith and morals.

This is heresy, is it not? But my understanding is the Church’s teaching in regards to artificial contraception, abortion, and homosexual acts are not changeable. Truth can’t change, regardless of whether one likes it or not. It seems to me these liberal dissenters simply see the Church as what they Want it to be, rather than what it is- the Fullness of Truth, the fullness of Christian Doctrine.

Question is, will the Church ever ‘change’ these teachings? If not, do you see a possible schism later on?

Thanks

Peace in Christ,

Eric

 

[stuart12]

The Church cannot change these teachings, and if she does, I would leave. That would prove that she is not the Church founded by Christ.

Will there be schisms in the future? Not sure. However, certain members of the ‘faithful’ do live in schism, because of their open defiance to the teaching of Christ through His Church.
Most ‘liberals’ (insert ‘heretics’) will grumble on about the unfairness, but most likely will not take active steps in forming their own ‘counter-church’.

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

They are in schism already…only problem is that there is no formal declaration from Rome saying such…

 

[JW55]

It is always interesting how people belong to a church and then want to change what the church teaches. If a person does not agree with its teachings, it would not be hard to find another denomination that will share the dissenter’s views. After all, there are thousands of different churches that call themselves Christian.

 

[Joe_5859]

I don’t think there will be any formal schism.

The “liberal” moniker can be used as a blanket category to include a lot of people of varying opinions and beliefs about the Church. As always in these discussion, we need to be careful about painting with too broad a brush. Some of those on the fringe have an obvious chip on their shoulder, but many are sincere people who are attempting to address what they perceive to be grave injustices.

These people want to be Catholic. I understand the whole “why-don’t-they-just-leave?” criticism. Indeed, they are seeking to change things that cannot be changed (though, in their mind, they can be changed). However, Church history is full of people who wanted to reform the Church from the inside (St. Francis, for example). To them, forming their own Church is just as silly a suggestion as it would be to telling us to form a new Church because we’re not happy about the liturgical abuses at our home parish. Reform comes from within.

Even groups like RomanCatholicWomenPriests (who have been explicitly excommunicated) still adamantly maintain that they are Catholic (and point-blank refuse to acknowledge the validity of those excommunications). They believe they are a grass roots organization that is seeking to reform the Catholic Church into what God wishes it to be.

Even if you wanted to maintain a more cynical view, these “liberals” would lose their soapbox and their influence if they became just another Protestant church.

I think much of it boils down to misplaced compassion. Catholics should be compassionate people. But compassion cannot be taken to the “I’m okay, you’re okay” extreme.

The more time that passes, and the more the Holy See clarifies these things (via CDF statements, the CCC, encyclicals, etc.), the more difficult it becomes to defend some of these views. It will take time to sink in to the cultural conscience, though.

 

[chaunceygardner]

The schism already exists, but in a way it is a “stealth” schism. When you are at Mass there are likely many people in the pews who could be put in the schism category because of what they believe or don’t accept. But they are there anyway, praying, singing, and receiving Communion among you. Sort of like a Sci-Fi movie.

One problem might be with the concept of “Once a Catholic, always a Catholic”, and the fact that most Catholics were “born” into the religion. Most don’t choose to be Catholic, they just are, with the resulting family and peer pressures to remain so. Many Protestants I know were raised in one denomination but later in adulthood chose another (Lutheran to Episcopalian or Methodist, for example). No one has a problem with that and see it as a choice someone can make to worship as they want.

But someone who switches from Catholicism to another faith is said to have “left” the Church, and is a “lapsed” Catholic (never heard of a “lapsed” Lutheran), but in reality they are doing the same thing as in the first example. It may also be that they are “leaving” not because of problems with doctrine but because of factors about the Church, their Parish, or dealings they had with a Priest or other person in authority. It sometimes has nothing to do with theology or doctrine.

So the result is you have people who have little argument with Catholic doctrine switching because of other issues and Catholics who don’t accept all Church doctrine staying in the Church (at least outwardly). Quite an interesting situation.

I would doubt that this would ever develop into a full blown schism, except in a few isolated instances as already exist. I COULD see the Church splitting more in terms of liturgy, between the pre Vatican II liturgy and/or TLM and the current vernacular liturgy, somewhat like the Eastern Rite Catholics are in communion with Rome but have their own liturgical forms. You could have two or more “churches”, all still Catholic, who are united in faith and doctrine but have somewhat different rites and rubrics. And what would be wrong with that?

 

[LoyalViews]

They are in schism already…only problem is that there is no formal declaration from Rome saying such…

Correct!

The problem with todays world is that people think they can believe ‘whatever’ , and that’s okay for their souls. No, it is not. You must believe what the Catholic church teaches, because that the the truth. What the Church teaches is the 100% no-question about it TRUTH. People think they can interpret what the church teaches so it makes it easy for them. They think thay are sinless. There was only one person saved from sin and that is Our Blessed Virgin Mary, and her sone, Our lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Our Lord gave the power to St. Peter to head over the church on earth, “Whatever thou bid in earth shall be bind in heaven”. Our holy Pope Benedict XVI is the successor of Peter, as is every Pope. What they teach is the truth. If they teach heresy, they can not be the Pope, they are an anti-Pope.

So, if a Pope decreed that birth-control is ok, homosexuality is ok, abortion is ok, etc… then that Pope is a heretic, therefore making him an anti-Pope.

Just because the world has become more “accepting” of homosexuals, that does not make homosexuality ok, because it is not. People change, God does NOT.

So, no. The church can not change it’s teaching on contraception and abortian and homosexuality, because the truth is the truth and truth can NOT be changed.

Sorry, I tend to ramble…alot.
God Bless :byzsoc:

 

[JacktheCatholic]

“will the Liberal Church schism?”

Nope.

If they are lucky they will be able to start another church like Martin Luther did. More likely they will slowly leave or be excommunicated.

Did you all hear? Jesus is cleaing House.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hello everyone,

I was very distressed to see in the National Catholic Reporter, which purports to be actually Catholic, articles which encouraged women’s ordination, praised politicians for defying the bishops (most specifically in regards to abortion), and the like.

These liberals tend to raise the Social Teaching of the Church, which is great and should be cherised, but they raise the social teaching over and above the infallible teachings on faith and morals.

This is heresy, is it not? But my understanding is the Church’s teaching in regards to artificial contraception, abortion, and homosexual acts are not changeable. Truth can’t change, regardless of whether one likes it or not. It seems to me these liberal dissenters simply see the Church as what they Want it to be, rather than what it is- the Fullness of Truth, the fullness of Christian Doctrine.

Question is, will the Church ever ‘change’ these teachings? If not, do you see a possible schism later on?

Thanks

Peace in Christ,

Eric

No, they have no intention of leaving. they want to stay and fight the Church from inside. i heard a woman on the news affirming as such, that they would stay until the Church changes its teachings. these people are dangerous. just look at the issue of altar girls. this was allowed. many issues have been allowed in the Church due to the weakness of leadership. yes, these people could be dangerous for the Faith. the Church is not calling them into account. so, they run free getting adepts to their heresy.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

No, they have no intention of leaving. they want to stay and fight the Church from inside. i heard a woman on the news affirming as such, that they would stay until the Church changes its teachings. these people are dangerous. just look at the issue of altar girls. this was allowed. many issues have been allowed in the Church due to the weakness of leadership. yes, these people could be dangerous for the Faith. the Church is not calling them into account. so, they run free getting adepts to their heresy.

Then priests or bishops or whomever need to start being more vocal. Even use the excommunication card, if need be.

People like Pelosie (spelling?) should have been carded already. Terrible…

 

[wisdomseeker]

Then priests or bishops or whomever need to start being more vocal. Even use the excommunication card, if need be.

People like Pelosie (spelling?) should have been carded already. Terrible…

that is exactly it. these people are free to say and do as they please because there is no consequences for their actions. that is why we are in crisis like never before.

 

[Magnus467]

What exactly is the liberal church? People who go to the OF, follow the Vatican allowed laws about EMHC and altar servers, like contemporary music? Or are we talking like woman’s ordinations and contraception? A good question too to ask is why has the “traditional” groups (SSPX) already been is schism?

If you are saying contraception and other things then Rome is already pretty clear on those. But, I have a feeling you are not.

 

[otjm]

There is a de facto schism within the Church among certain elements of the more liberal persuasion. A minor example should suffice: it is not for no reason that Rome started their visitation of various women’s religious groups - sisters, nuns, etc. I seriously doubt there will be any large formal schism though, if it has not occurred by now.

As to worrying about it, consider this: there has been noted repeatedly a marked difference between the priests recently ordained (last 15 to 20 years) and those ordained prior to and post Vatican 2 - into the 80’s. The newer group of priests, often referred to as “John Paul” priests, simply have a different agenda than the older priests.

Additionally, if one looks at the gatherings of the liberal groups, again publicly noted, one finds the “graying” of them; in short, they are the 50, 60, 70 year olds who are simply not attracting the younger people. Again, different agendas (coupled with the fact that those under 35 or so have the worst age bracket attendance at Mass regularly).

The critical issue the Church faces in Europe and North America is not a liberal agenda. It is the fact that the vast majority of younger Catholics are so illiterate about their faith, and are so extremely lax at practicing it. So many have simply drifted away because they know so little about it, and because their parents made such a minimal effort to inculcate and grow the faith in their children.

And this is not an issue pertinent only to Catholics; the main line Protestant churches have also seen massive decline in regular attendance.

 

[maurin]

They are in schism already…only problem is that there is no formal declaration from Rome saying such…

Pretty much what I was thinking. The hypocrisy of the so called conservatives–the progressives in Traditional clothing–lies in the fact that they don’t apply the same measuring sick of de facto schism against the liberals as they do the SSPX. As one poster above illustrates.

 

[notredame_999]

Pretty much what I was thinking. The hypocrisy of the so called conservatives–the progressives in Traditional clothing–lies in the fact that they don’t apply the same measuring sick of de facto schism against the liberals as they do the SSPX. As one poster above illustrates.

If you believe the SSPX is extremist than what you are really saying is that the whole Catholic Church before Vatican II was extremist.

 

[elts1956]

Hello everyone,

I was very distressed to see in the National Catholic Reporter, which purports to be actually Catholic, articles which encouraged women’s ordination, praised politicians for defying the bishops (most specifically in regards to abortion), and the like.

These liberals tend to raise the Social Teaching of the Church, which is great and should be cherised, but they raise the social teaching over and above the infallible teachings on faith and morals.

This is heresy, is it not? But my understanding is the Church’s teaching in regards to artificial contraception, abortion, and homosexual acts are not changeable. Truth can’t change, regardless of whether one likes it or not. It seems to me these liberal dissenters simply see the Church as what they Want it to be, rather than what it is- the Fullness of Truth, the fullness of Christian Doctrine.

Question is, will the Church ever ‘change’ these teachings? If not, do you see a possible schism later on?

Thanks

Peace in Christ,

Eric

Shake the dust from your sandals in regard to the National Catholic Reporter. Its nickname is dissention. There is dissension within the Church which came to the forefront after Vatican II. The progressives have had their way for now. It will take time to get back to the teachings of the church which were held sacred for over 2000 years. Read The Desolate City, Revolution in the Catholic Church by Anne ROCHE MUGGERIDGE. That will shake you in your boots right down to your tippie toes. Quite an enlightenment.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Shake the dust from your sandals in regard to the National Catholic Reporter. Its nickname is dissention. There is dissension within the Church which came to the forefront after Vatican II. The progressives have had their way for now. It will take time to get back to the teachings of the church which were held sacred for over 2000 years. Read The Desolate City, Revolution in the Catholic Church by Anne ROCHE MUGGERIDGE. That will shake you in your boots right down to your tippie toes. Quite an enlightenment.

agree!

 

[maurin]

If you believe the SSPX is extremist than what you are really saying is that the whole Catholic Church before Vatican II was extremist.

If you believe that I don’t support the SSPX with my entire being, then you don’t know my posts very well.

What I intended to say by my post, notredame, is that these conservatives who denigrate and defame the Society with their slanders of schism fail to apply the same standards to the liberals who are killing Catholicism. I beg pardon if I wasn’t clear.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

What exactly is the liberal church?

Good question.

I think we need to do away with all this labelling. No more Liberal or Traditionalist or whatever. Instead call a spade a spade.

You are either Catholic or a Heretic. Nuff said…

If a Heretic then excommunication. I think Paul wrote to hand them over to Satan so that they might be saved.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Good question.

I think we need to do away with all this labelling. No more Liberal or Traditionalist or whatever. Instead call a spade a spade.

You are either Catholic or a Heretic. Nuff said…

If a Heretic then excommunication. I think Paul wrote to hand them over to Satan so that they might be saved.

unfortunately, this is what is happening. it is called catholic charismatic church. this church has been borne after vii. they call themselves that.
the CC was never called that before.