Will the Pope's Encyclical Scare Protestants?

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I originally posted this under Catholic News, but the thread was closed because I failed to use the title of the article as the title of the post…lesson learned.

I would still appreciate some feedback…

*reuters.com/article/topNe…BrandChannel=0

Before becoming Catholic about four years ago, I had been a Protestant of one stripe or another for about 30 years. I am familiar with (as a congregant) charismatic and fundamentalist churches, as well as later becoming a member of a very conservative Lutheran church. Over the years I was exposed to Protestant teaching of various stripes regarding the “end times…”

One of the biggest concerns of many Protestants, especially American Protestants, I believe (though I am not even sure it would be a majority of them), is the imposition of a “New World Order” embodied in a one-world government. They view such a government as a prelude to the reign of the anti-Christ. There have been cautions about such a movement for at least 50 years. This is one of the reasons, I believe, that Protestants in the past were such staunch anti-Communists.

According to the article I have linked above, the Holy Father is calling for exactly such a government. Whether the article accurate or not, I do not know.

Any thoughts?*
 
Methodists get accused of being communists all of the time. You have company.
 
Some Protestants are just generally scared of Catholicism and any new Encyclical wouldn’t change that.

It is interesting that a Protestant (I think the more specific term of Fundamentalist is appropriate here as the type of protestant that we are used to dealing with on these forums do not fall for the NWO conspiracy theories.) would use this New World Order argument of a one world religion headed by the Catholic Church. No sooner would they prove that the Catholic Church was looking to mix all the world’s religions in this New World Order and bring everyone under the “yoke of the Roman Pontiff” then they would prove using arguments of the Inquisition and the crusades that the Church is intolerant and power hungry. I believe it was G.K. Chesterton who said that no sooner would one opponent prove that the Church was too round that another would prove that it was too square (Looks around for GKC to provide citation of quote :D… Orthodoxy?)

God bless you
 
Roman_Catholic said:
Some Protestants are just generally scared of Catholicism and any new Encyclical wouldn’t change that.

It is interesting that a Protestant (I think the more specific term of Fundamentalist is appropriate here as the type of protestant that we are used to dealing with on these forums do not fall for the NWO conspiracy theories.) would use this New World Order argument of a one world religion headed by the Catholic Church. No sooner would they prove that the Catholic Church was looking to mix all the world’s religions in this New World Order and bring everyone under the “yoke of the Roman Pontiff” then they would prove using arguments of the Inquisition and the crusades that the Church is intolerant and power hungry. I believe it was G.K. Chesterton who said that no sooner would one opponent prove that the Church was too round that another would prove that it was too square (Looks around for GKC to provide citation of quote :D… Orthodoxy?)

God bless you
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ORTHODOXY, chap. VI, “The Paradoxes of Christianity”. But it must be remembered that when Chesterton wrote it, he was nominally still an Anglican, though about to change his mind. He was speaking of Christianity, generally, as he saw it in 1908, and not specifically of the Roman Catholic Church. But the point would be the same.

GKC
 
Will the Pope’s Encyclical Scare Protestants?

A more interesting question is, will the Pope’s Encyclical scare Catholics?:bigyikes:
 
SedesDomi said:
Will the Pope’s Encyclical Scare Protestants?

A more interesting question is, will the Pope’s Encyclical scare Catholics?:bigyikes:
Click to expand...
Probably, he is one heartbeat away from the anti-pope…
 
GKC said:
ORTHODOXY, chap. VI, “The Paradoxes of Christianity”. But it must be remembered that when Chesterton wrote it, he was nominally still an Anglican, though about to change his mind. He was speaking of Christianity, generally, as he saw it in 1908, and not specifically of the Roman Catholic Church. But the point would be the same.

GKC
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GKC always ready with a Chesterton citation 👍

Your point about Chesterton speaking about Christianity in general and not Roman Catholicism in particular is interesting (besides being true of course) because I believe he uses the examples of the Inquisition and the Crusades in Orthodoxy. I wonder if Chesterton then did not disassociate Protestantism with the acts of the Church prior to the Reformation? :hmmm: That would make for a very interesting topic for a different thread. It has become fashionable within Protestantism to think of the Crusades and the Inquisition as something those, “evil and nasty Catholics did…” Of course though;* fallacies do not cease to be fallacies simply because they become fashion… * 😉

The Paradoxes of Christianity is a fitting title for that Chapter. It is quite a paradox how the Church can be too round and at the same time too square. Almost up there with Christ being fully man and fully God.

God bless you
 
Roman_Catholic said:
GKC always ready with a Chesterton citation 👍

Your point about Chesterton speaking about Christianity in general and not Roman Catholicism in particular is interesting (besides being true of course) because I believe he uses the examples of the Inquisition and the Crusades in Orthodoxy. I wonder if Chesterton then did not disassociate Protestantism with the acts of the Church prior to the Reformation? :hmmm: That would make for a very interesting topic for a different thread. It has become fashionable within Protestantism to think of the Crusades and the Inquisition as something those, “evil and nasty Catholics did…” Of course though;* fallacies do not cease to be fallacies simply because they become fashion… * 😉

The Paradoxes of Christianity is a fitting title for that Chapter. It is quite a paradox how the Church can be too round and at the same time too square. Almost up there with Christ being fully man and fully God.

God bless you
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By 1908, Chesterton, nominally an Anglo-Catholic, had reached the conclusion he was heading for Rome. Why he did not do so until 1922 is yet another interesting subject. But, coming from an Anglo-Catholic orientation, in 1908, he certainly saw Anglicanism as not severed from the common history of the historic Church. But while he does use the “square/circle” example, he doesn’t mention the Inquisition at all, there. Crusades, yes.

This is a good point to repeat something I might have said here before: to understand Chesterton at this stage of his life, one needs to read Oddie’s CHESTERTON AND THE ROMANCE OF ORTHODOXY, one of the three or four essential books on Chesterton. The title, of course, comes from another chapter in ORTHODOXY.

And “fallacies do not cease to be fallacies simply because they become fashions.” ILLUSTRATED LONDON NEWS, 19 April 1930, "“Novels on the Great War”.

It is not safe to allow me too close to a mention of Chesterton. You may now return to your thread.

GKC
 
Melvin said:
I originally posted this under Catholic News, but the thread was closed because I failed to use the title of the article as the title of the post…lesson learned.

I would still appreciate some feedback…

reuters.com/article/topNe…BrandChannel=0

Before becoming Catholic about four years ago, I had been a Protestant of one stripe or another for about 30 years. I am familiar with (as a congregant) charismatic and fundamentalist churches, as well as later becoming a member of a very conservative Lutheran church. Over the years I was exposed to Protestant teaching of various stripes regarding the “end times…”

One of the biggest concerns of many Protestants, especially American Protestants, I believe (though I am not even sure it would be a majority of them), is the imposition of a “New World Order” embodied in a one-world government. They view such a government as a prelude to the reign of the anti-Christ. There have been cautions about such a movement for at least 50 years. This is one of the reasons, I believe, that Protestants in the past were such staunch anti-Communists.

According to the article I have linked above, the Holy Father is calling for exactly such a government. Whether the article accurate or not, I do not know.

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
The Pope’s not calling for a one-world government, but some sort of statutory body to control economic life, in the interest of economic justice. While a billion people starve in Africa, CEO’s pay themselves hundreds of times the average workers’ wages in developed nations, while shoving jobs overseas.

My old protestant pastor was quite conservative. He was a member of a right wing political party, and had generally right wing views (not extreme, but more right than left).

However I remember his comment once that he thought Marxist economics was God’s idea, given through a Jew, just as Christianity came through a Jew, and the two most influential scientists of all time, Newton and Einstein, were both Jews. Even Islam, the other main competing ideology these days, owes much to Judaic tradition.

He quoted - “From every man according to ability; to every man according to need” and then said, “It has an almost Biblical ring about it.”

However he thought the devil knew what God was trying to do in the interests of social justice, and got hold of it first through the extremist group, the Bolsheviks. As a result he said, you’d never get the church to support Marxist economics now, after the immense suffering Christians endured.

I think something similar happened with the Reformation. I think Luther was the man God wanted to use to start the Reformation rolling, but within the Church. It probably would have meant martyrdom for Luther, but through his martyrdom, God would have reformed the church. But again the devil knew what was going on, and managed to deter Luther from martyrdom by hiding in the Wartburg.

Millions of deaths later, with immense violence, the church was bitterly divided with a long term legacy of mistrust.

We seem to think that the devil can’t upset God’s plans. There’s a spiritual war on in case we’ve forgotten. People can upset God’s plans, and they often do. I think He gets immensely frustrated at times.

In the end what is wrong with “From every man according to ability; to every man according to need.”?
 
Melvin said:
I originally posted this under Catholic News, but the thread was closed because I failed to use the title of the article as the title of the post…lesson learned.

I would still appreciate some feedback…

reuters.com/article/topNe…BrandChannel=0

Before becoming Catholic about four years ago, I had been a Protestant of one stripe or another for about 30 years. I am familiar with (as a congregant) charismatic and fundamentalist churches, as well as later becoming a member of a very conservative Lutheran church. Over the years I was exposed to Protestant teaching of various stripes regarding the “end times…”

One of the biggest concerns of many Protestants, especially American Protestants, I believe (though I am not even sure it would be a majority of them), is the imposition of a “New World Order” embodied in a one-world government. They view such a government as a prelude to the reign of the anti-Christ. There have been cautions about such a movement for at least 50 years. This is one of the reasons, I believe, that Protestants in the past were such staunch anti-Communists.

According to the article I have linked above, the Holy Father is calling for exactly such a government. Whether the article accurate or not, I do not know.

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
None of it particularly scares me from a religious sense, so I’m not sure I completely understand the “Are Protestants scared?” angle.

In the political/economic sense, I have no problem with a NWO, and in fact welcome it, if the basic principles of American governnance are preserved, and based on the last six months, strengthened. That is, the basic rights of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness (property) are preserved. That basic Bill of Rights protections are maitained - speech, religion, arms, etc. That government would be limited, as was originally intended.

And if by “redistribution of wealth” we mean expanding the opportunities to grow wealth in areas where that opportunity has been denied, that’s great. If, instead, we mean taking wealth from some and giving it to others, I am opposed. While capitalism does not equally distribute wealth, socialism always equally distributes poverty (except, of course, to those who run a socialist tyranny).

Jon
 
It may be that the Pope’s Encyclical may scare Americans, Protestant and Catholic alike.

Americans do not like to be told what to do - economically for certain. Don’t mess with capitalism, many will say - capitalism is good. I am a political cynic at best - but my read is that most Republicans will say that this is too much like a “Democratic plot” to be communist.

If you read the Book of Acts, “all things were held in common” in that first Christian community. We also read that it didn’t work too well.

I am a United Methodist; to my knowledge, only Catholics and United Methodists give their bishops the sole/full power to appoint/deploy their clergy to churches and parishes. Episcopalians and Lutherans have a modified “call” system, where bishops assist with the appointment of clergy. So in essence, that is a monarchy of sorts - something that conjures up very bad memories for Americans.

So will the Pope’s Encyclical scare Protestants? I am sure it will scare some. But if I were Catholic, I think the larger question would be, “Will it scare American Catholics?” I mean, how will your discussions at work, with friends, etc., go when they hear that the Pope wants a world organization to deal with economics?
 
I give the Pope two points for being daring enough to address a sensitive issue, whatever he meant. If he is a real pastor he will not restrict himself to things we want to hear, but things we need to hear.
 
Melvin said:
I originally posted this under Catholic News, but the thread was closed because I failed to use the title of the article as the title of the post…lesson learned.

I would still appreciate some feedback…

reuters.com/article/topNe…BrandChannel=0

Before becoming Catholic about four years ago, I had been a Protestant of one stripe or another for about 30 years. I am familiar with (as a congregant) charismatic and fundamentalist churches, as well as later becoming a member of a very conservative Lutheran church. Over the years I was exposed to Protestant teaching of various stripes regarding the “end times…”

One of the biggest concerns of many Protestants, especially American Protestants, I believe (though I am not even sure it would be a majority of them), is the imposition of a “New World Order” embodied in a one-world government. They view such a government as a prelude to the reign of the anti-Christ. There have been cautions about such a movement for at least 50 years. This is one of the reasons, I believe, that Protestants in the past were such staunch anti-Communists.
Click to expand...
Anti-Communism went way beyond dispensational theology (the theology that lies behind the fear you are talking about), though for dispensationalists of course this was an important factor.
*
According to the article I have linked above, the Holy Father is calling for exactly such a government. Whether the article accurate or not, I do not know.
Click to expand...
Any thoughts?
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Well, you can read (or at least skim) the encyclical yourself. You don’t have to depend on Reuters. The section where he calls for a global “political authority” is sect. 67. Sect. 41 also has some clarifications on the nature and limits of such an authority.

Having grown up in dispensationalist circles, yes I can see that many folks in those circles will be scared. However, most of them are simply going to have their beliefs confirmed, since they expect the Papacy to be part of the future world government. It won’t put them off Catholicism–they are already anti-Catholic. There may be some non-anti-Catholic dispensationalists who will be pushed toward anti-Catholicism by this encyclical. That’s unfortunate, but the Pope has to speak what he thinks is the truth, not what a minority of Protestants needs to hear.

For all the Pope’s much-touted Augustinianism, I think that here he’s showing the strong Thomist/Aristotelian roots of Catholic social thought. Perhaps because of my dispensationalist upbringing, I tend to think that government is a bad thing and the more and bigger it is the worse it is. The Pope is working with a more positive view of government–not just as a restraint on sin but as a genuine means of human flourishing. I think this shows how much he does have in common with President Obama and other American “liberals,” in spite of their differences. And since I respect the Pope, I take this approach to government more seriously because he seems to endorse it.

But it must be noted that he insists on the principle of “subsidiarity” even while calling for stronger instruments of international cooperation. He’s not talking about a surrender of all sovereignty to some worldwide all-powerful government.

Edwin
 
O.S.Luke said:
Methodists get accused of being communists all of the time. You have company.
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LOL. My wife’s grandfather (who later became president of Asbury Seminary, which those of you who know about Methodism know means that he was on the conservative side of that tradition) was pastor of the Methodist church in Collingswood, New Jersey at one point. Just down the road was the “Bible Presbyterian Church” of Carl McIntyre (one of the most prominent fundamentalist leaders of the 20th century, and one of those guys who saw liberals and communists everywhere). At one point, McIntyre had a sign outside his church (presumably announcing the topic of a forthcoming sermon or talk) reading “Why the pastor of First United Methodist Church is a Communist.” I’m sure the rationale had something to do with the World Council of Churches!

Edwin
 
I predict at least some will seize on this to declare the Pope is grabbing for rule of a one world government and declare him the Antichrist.
 
pnewton said:
I predict at least some will seize on this to declare the Pope is grabbing for rule of a one world government and declare him the Antichrist.
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I think the way that the prophecy goes is that the last pope of the church will be a big supporter of the anti-christ…
 
geometer said:
I think the way that the prophecy goes is that the last pope of the church will be a big supporter of the anti-christ…
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some do view that, i don’t know why however…
The pope can declare one world gov all day and it doesn’t really scare me…however that is kinda strange because he of all people should know that is a prerequisite to the Antichrist…
 
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