Will the Real Bishops Please Stand Up? Please Stand Up

[mesquite_magic]

Well, like I said before, education begins in the home. What you let your kids watch on TV is up to you, for sure, but not all parents let their kids stay up that late, or watch those kinds of shows, and it’s those kids that won’t have heard of these things before, or whose parents won’t want to have to deal with it at a young age.

These commericals are on daytime TV as well. I turn on the morning news programs and a commerical for the newest patch or pill comes on. This has nothing to do with letting my kids stay up late or watching “those kind of shows”.

Kim

 

[FatBoy]

Ummmm, I did read the post - you are asking about homilies and prayers during Mass, about folks being friendly and welcoming at Mass -

Seems you know lots more than me, I’ll go back to my corner now.

By the way, the issues I have brought up are dealing with family life (acting like a family at church, contraception, and homosexuality). Hmmmm? Sounds like the right forum to me.

 

[Norseman82]

aggressively apathetic

“Aggressively apathetic” - haha, that’s a good one!

Anyway, a priest could always give fair waring that he would touch on some sensitive issues and that if parents did not want their kids to hear it, they should cover their ears for a few minutes or take them to a separate room.

Part of the problem is that talking about hard issues today leads to accusations of judgmentalism and unfortunately few people today have the spine to stand up to them (because today there is a false notion of Christ-likeness that states that you cannot confront anyone) or have the talent to explain that saying 2+2=4 is simply stating a fact and not being judgmental.

 

[housewife]

I’m not sure these are inappropriate topics to discuss in front of children, provided the discussion is not vulgar. How many times have we read on these boards that someone went through 12 years of Catholic school and never heard that birth control was a sin? The children are learning the opposing side’s view on sexual matters just through everyday life in society, why not present them with the Church’s stance on these topics as well?

Welcome Fatboy! I wish you many blessings as you continue your faith journey.

I agree. I would not want for my children to first hear about the word sex from a fellow classmate or someone as young as them. I prefer for them to hear it from Church. I agree that anything that has to be mentioned in church should and does not have to be vulgar/explicit. If anything, I prefer for my children to know about these things early on and from church and from us, their parents rather than for them to learn anything negative about sex from someone else. It will teach them moral values and how to respect all that is related to sex. But, that is my opinion. Bottomline, I would not mind at all if the priest touches these topics. On the contrary, it will reinforce anything that has been taught or that will be taught to our children by us.

 

[FatBoy]

Fatboy-- as a new convert myself, I hear you brother. First of all, I beg all of you to pray for the sanctification of the Priesthood. This is where the solution to all of this begins. Don’t just pray once for this, pray daily, if possible at 3:00PM–The Hour of Mercy. I believe that Our Lord will honor our prayers—especially at his sacred hour.
Secondly, it seems that some participants in this conversation have a skewed perception of sex. It is so sacred, so beautiful, and so important that it should be addressed in the context of worship. Sex is not dirty. It is the means by which God has chosen to create new eternal souls! I can remember hearing chastity sermons from the time I was in the 1st grade (i probably wasn’t paying attention before then). This did not “corrupt” me or destory my “innocense” it taught me to guard my virginity from a young age. I understood it as the greatest gift that I could give to my future spouse. Shielding our children from the truth of sexual morality will harm them, not help them. We need strong Fathers to guide their children in Truth. The pulpit should be a beacon of Truth and Light.
Please pray for the sanctification of the priesthood.

Peace,
peacegirl

Please read this quote. This is timeless! I believe this sums it all up.

 

[maria29]

This to me is a perfect example of how a homily about the culture of death and sexuality should be:
"And if we think about it now, we can say that also in our time we need to say “no” to the widely prevalent culture of death.

It is an “anticulture” manifested, for example, in drugs, in the flight from reality to what is illusory, to a false happiness expressed in deceit, fraud, injustice and contempt for others, for solidarity, and for responsibility for the poor and the suffering; it is expressed in a sexuality that becomes sheer irresponsible enjoyment, that makes the human person into a “thing”, so to speak, no longer considered a person who deserves personal love which requires fidelity, but who becomes a commodity, a mere object.

Let us say “no” to this promise of apparent happiness, to this “pompa” of what may seem to be life but is in fact merely an instrument of death, and to this “anticulture”, in order to cultivate instead the culture of life. For this reason, the Christian “yes”, from ancient times to our day, is a great “yes” to life. It is our “yes” to Christ, our “yes” to the Conqueror of death and the “yes” to life in time and in eternity. "

Personally I don’t really like when the priest doesn’t use the gospel as his springboard for his homily.Technically this is what the homily is for, one can talk about a vice or virtue as long as it relates to the gospel reading.

 

[mark_a]

For a church that basis its whole existence upon a familial concept it sure is not practicing what it is preaching.

It can happen, but in my area the priests are rock solid. The bishop is too.

The complete opposite of the practice spoken of here is a major draw for protestant churches. People want to go where they feel welcome. Yet, Catholic apologists claim that the Catholic Church is about family and Protestantism is about “me and Jesus”. It appears to me at present time that the apologists have it backwards. Can someone please shed light on my ignorance as to why this practice seems to be so prevalent in my short experience with the Catholic Church?

Come to SC!!

Let’s talk about contraception. Wait…maybe not…I wouldn’t want to offend anyone! Give me a break! I have yet to have heard a priest speak or pray for an end to contraception.

Since entire families are present at mass, it might be inappropiate to get into much detail during the homilies. I happen to know that priests in my area drive these (contraception) points home during one-on-one situations such as in confession or during pre-cana conferences.

Recently we had a priest, during a homily, annonce that our parish had an nfp advisor. The next week during the homily, he told us that he was told by one lady who was hopping mad, that the priests needed to clean up their own act (refering to the pedophelia scandals) first.

They always pray for an end to the “culture of death” which is great but you need to be a little more specific. The culture we live in (especially ages 18-40) does not understand there to be anything wrong with contraception. Sadly (I believe by omission from prays and such) it is not associated with the “culture of death”. If you would allow me to step on some “pins and needles” for a sec I would say we do not need to pray for an end to abortion. Yes, that is what I said. We need to pray towards the foundation of the “culture of death”. We need to pray for the end of contraception. Abortion is simply a fail-safe contraceptive. If people would stop contracepting abortion would cease. Yet, priests won’t touch it. One of my brothers told me that he felt the Blessed Mother calling him during the prayers of the faithful while in daily mass to pray for an end to contraception (at this particular parish the priest allowed for the people to announce their own intentions). People looked at him with disgust and after about a week the priest stopped asking for the congregations intentions. Can you believe this? Is this what the Catholic Church represents? It seems that the Church is talking out of two side of its mouth. Can someone please explain this to me?
Lastly, homosexuality. Why do priests not stand up for an end to this. It is not to be spoken of. At least that’s what it seems like. Sometimes the truth hurts. The priest is the shepard and he has an obligation to protect his flock. Yet, he will not? People need to know what is wrong now more then ever.
I believe the Bishops need to take a stand and insure the protection of their flock from the vultures of sin such as these. Hence the title "Will the Real Bishops Please Stand Up? Please Stand Up
"

Welcome to the Catholic Church. This is the way it is. The Catholic Church is the most imperfect because it has the most to live up to.

The Church does not claim to be the most fun. It can be painful to be a Catholic if you are expecting to have people look up to you because you are a Catholic. You give up the right to be offended when you join the Church.

The Church has the truth concerning faith and morals teachings. It does not claim to have perfect teachers who know the precise approach with every individual they interact with.

And don’t worry, when these disappointments pass, there will be new ones to take their place.

Again, this is the Church. It is covered with warts and cancer. It struggles to keep moving, it takes pot shots from evry wannabe, governments all over the world fight it.

500 years ago it may have been arguable which Church had the fullness of truth.

And since every major denom has fallen away from or turned a blind eye to the moral truth, it is easy to see that the Catholic Church, warts and all, is the only one still teaching the unaltered truth.

 

[mark_a]

By the way, if you get a chance to hear Father Groeschel’s talk about the “Culture of death”, its well worth a listen.

He believes JP2 was a little too polite when he used “culture of death” to describe the US.

Fr. Groeschel calls it “the culture of killing”.

 

[airforcemom]

We had a priest several years ago that gave a great homily one Sunday - one lady walked out - everyone else stayed and not a sound was heard. It was the first time I had heard such truth spoken from where it should be coming from - a priest. He got a call from the Archbishop who asked him what he said because they had received several compliants and when he told the Archbishop what the homily was about he was told “great job”. The following a week one of the fathers who had been there told the priest he almost took his daughters and wife and walked out but then he realized that he was speaking the truth about it all so he stayed. He was also a medical doctor and said that if people practiced what the priest had preached about his practice would be much easier. I personally get tired ot the feel good homilys most priests give these days - not that I want an hour or so of being damned to hell like other chruches, but the Catholic Church does not preach what needs to be really said these days - they have also gotten too PC.

 

[FatBoy]

It can happen, but in my area the priests are rock solid. The bishop is too.

Come to SC!!

Since entire families are present at mass, it might be inappropiate to get into much detail during the homilies. I happen to know that priests in my area drive these (contraception) points home during one-on-one situations such as in confession or during pre-cana conferences.

Recently we had a priest, during a homily, annonce that our parish had an nfp advisor. The next week during the homily, he told us that he was told by one lady who was hopping mad, that the priests needed to clean up their own act (refering to the pedophelia scandals) first.

Welcome to the Catholic Church. This is the way it is. The Catholic Church is the most imperfect because it has the most to live up to.

The Church does not claim to be the most fun. It can be painful to be a Catholic if you are expecting to have people look up to you because you are a Catholic. You give up the right to be offended when you join the Church.

The Church has the truth concerning faith and morals teachings. It does not claim to have perfect teachers who know the precise approach with every individual they interact with.

And don’t worry, when these disappointments pass, there will be new ones to take their place.

Again, this is the Church. It is covered with warts and cancer. It struggles to keep moving, it takes pot shots from evry wannabe, governments all over the world fight it.

500 years ago it may have been arguable which Church had the fullness of truth.

And since every major denom has fallen away from or turned a blind eye to the moral truth, it is easy to see that the Catholic Church, warts and all, is the only one still teaching the unaltered truth.

Point taken. Thank you so much for your words. This really helps my understanding.

 

[Cat]

I am becoming convinced as I read this Board that I live in the best diocese in the U.S. Thank you, God!

FatBoy, what you are seeing in the parishes in your city is not what all Catholics experience. You’re just 'parish-challenged," or in more vulgar terms, “unlucky.”

Our parish is incredibly friendly. There are lots of hugs and kisses in the lobby before and after Mass–and I live in Northern Illinois, not the South! There are lots of fellowship groups and classes and social groups to join for all age groups. We have 7000 people in our parish, and I feel very connected.

I did read something on this Forum a few days ago that perhaps would explain what you are experiencing. The poster asked if it is “irreverent” to greet people in church before Mass.

So perhaps in your parishes there are those Catholics who were taught that it is “irreverent” to be friendly to fellow Christians. Oy vey.

As for tough homilies about tough issues, come to our parish. People stalk out in disgust all the time! Our priests and our bishop aren’t afraid to offend people, although in our parish, the priests warn parents if they are about to say something “grown up” so that they can take their child out to the lobby for a walk.

Be careful, FatBoy–one thing that my husband and I heard often when we converted from evangelical Protestantism is “We just LOVE converts! They’re so enthusiastic and they really keep us all on our toes.”

It got to the point where I was feeling pretty cool about myself listening to all these glowing compliments, and pretty arrogant about my Bible knowledge and spirituality! Bad, bad, bad! So be careful not to become proud or arrogant.

The Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years, and it’s huge. Imagine a beautiful gigantic castle with millions of rooms. Right now, you are running through those rooms admiring all the treasures, but you can’t find some stuff that you think ought to be in that castle and it’s making you frustrated. You’re wondering why the Catholic Church “castle” doesn’t have that stuff! Rest assured–it’s IN THERE! You just haven’t gotten to those rooms yet. You’ll find it eventually.

 

[Al_Masetti]

There are adult ways of dealing with adult topics. Bishops know or should know how to address them. The OP deals with some topics that some bishops have failed or refused to address.

The biggest scandal of all, however, as described by Father Benedict Groeschel is the abdication of the teaching role of the Church. Teaching of the tenets of Catholicism has been dumbed down to the point where people don’t really know very much any more.

I once asked a priest why they didn’t teach from the pulpit and he said they weren’t permitted to. They were required to preach, but not permitted to teach. And he was a pretty knowledgeble guy. Late ordination with a secular financial career until he decided to become a priest. [He would try to “sneak in” some teaching, but not as much as he would like.]

 

[Brad]

There are adult ways of dealing with adult topics. Bishops know or should know how to address them. The OP deals with some topics that some bishops have failed or refused to address.

The biggest scandal of all, however, as described by Father Benedict Groeschel is the abdication of the teaching role of the Church. Teaching of the tenets of Catholicism has been dumbed down to the point where people don’t really know very much any more.

I once asked a priest why they didn’t teach from the pulpit and he said they weren’t permitted to. They were required to preach, but not permitted to teach. And he was a pretty knowledgeble guy. Late ordination with a secular financial career until he decided to become a priest. [He would try to “sneak in” some teaching, but not as much as he would like.]

So who is supposed to teach? Who is supposed to bring the Church teaching to the people? The newspaper? Evening news?
This is often mind-boggling.

 

[verdigirl]

Well, one big reason why you don’t hear the fire-and-brimstone arbitrary homilies is because priests and deacons are supposed to preach on the readings of the day. The liturgy is not the place for anyone’s special agenda except for the Church’s.

However, if I had MY druthers, I would rather see the Church taking young men to task and holding them responsible for their contributions to the abortion problem. There’s too much talk about abortion when there should be more talk about men objectifying women and dangling committed relationships like carrots in front of women in exchange for sex…and respect for women in general. Can’t have an abortion if there’s no pregnancy, right? Many women have abortions because they are afraid and alone and don’t think they can economically support a child. I’ve never heard the Church taking young men to task when they neglect their responsibilities and thereby contribute to a woman’s decision to abort.

There are too many young and/or impressionable women who agree to have sex outside of marriage just to keep a man around. When do you ever hear the Church working to help young women develop their self-esteem aside from trying to beat abstinence into them?

When women feel supported by the Church, and when the Church does more to help them recognize their God-given dignity, then they can deflect the open manipulation by men who just want sex. Until then, this whole “pro-life” agenda is one-sided and sexist.

As far as homosexuality is concerned, the Catechism says:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

It could be discriminatory to single out homosexuals during Mass. Most priests I know are pretty ham-handed about most interpersonal issues anyway, so there aren’t any priests I know who could handle the issue with the sensitivity REQUIRED by the Church.

 

[Brad]

Well, one big reason why you don’t hear the fire-and-brimstone arbitrary homilies is because priests and deacons are supposed to preach on the readings of the day. The liturgy is not the place for anyone’s special agenda except for the Church’s.

The primary goal is to for souls to get to heaven. The teaching that comes from the preaching that comes from the readings gives what is needed for a soul to follow God.

There are ample opportunities to stress the teaching of the Church via the readings of the day.

However, if I had MY druthers, I would rather see the Church taking young men to task and holding them responsible for their contributions to the abortion problem. There’s too much talk about abortion when there should be more talk about men objectifying women and dangling committed relationships like carrots in front of women in exchange for sex…and respect for women in general. Can’t have an abortion if there’s no pregnancy, right? Many women have abortions because they are afraid and alone and don’t think they can economically support a child. I’ve never heard the Church taking young men to task when they neglect their responsibilities and thereby contribute to a woman’s decision to abort.

There are too many young and/or impressionable women who agree to have sex outside of marriage just to keep a man around. When do you ever hear the Church working to help young women develop their self-esteem aside from trying to beat abstinence into them?

So agenda is ok if it is yours? I agree with you about men not being responsible enough. Why do the feminists and liberals always let the men off the hook as long as they can procure or provide access to an abortion?

I have never, ever heard a homily regarding abstinence. Lord willing, we will see some soon. Teaching the whys and hows of abstinence is part and parcel of teaching self-esteem.

When women feel supported by the Church, and when the Church does more to help them recognize their God-given dignity, then they can deflect the open manipulation by men who just want sex. Until then, this whole “pro-life” agenda is one-sided and sexist.

Well, maybe instead of allowing themselves to be continually baboozled by weak men they should study how Christianity has done more to lift the diginity of women than any other organization in history.

Just an observation, most churches are heavily skewed towards females, especially in non-ordained leadership positions. I would think that overall, more men believe the Church leaves them out rather than vice-versa.

As far as homosexuality is concerned, the Catechism says:

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition

It could be discriminatory to single out homosexuals during Mass. Most priests I know are pretty ham-handed about most interpersonal issues anyway, so there aren’t any priests I know who could handle the issue with the sensitivity REQUIRED by the Church.

I don’t know of any document requiring sensitivity. Sin is what will keep people out of union with God (i.e. Heaven) so they should all be talked about, most particular the popular ones. To not do so is uncharitable.

 

[verdigirl]

So agenda is ok if it is yours?

Come on. The point I was addressing was what kinds of things are being preached during homilies. Unless you know of something I don’t, there aren’t going to be any regular female homiletics happening anytime soon. So my “agenda” is not material to the discussion. No cheap shots, ok?

I don’t know of any document requiring sensitivity.

You’ve never heard of Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination: Guidelines for Pastoral Care? This is the statement from the US Council of Bishops released in November 2006. I quote:

Those who would minister in the name of the Church must in no way contribute to such injustice. They should prayerfully examine their own hearts in order to discern any thoughts or feelings that might stand in need of purification. Those who minister are also called to growth in holiness. In fact, the work of spreading the Good News involves an ever-increasing love for those to whom one is ministering by calling them to the truth of Jesus Christ.

Check it out yourself: usccb.org/dpp/Ministry.pdf

Dunno, sounds like a requirement for sensitivity to me. What do you think?

As an orthodox liberal feminist , I will follow the teachings of the Bishops.

Pax tecum, frater, ok?

 

[HouseArrest]

Well, one big reason why you don’t hear the fire-and-brimstone arbitrary homilies is because priests and deacons are supposed to preach on the readings of the day. The liturgy is not the place for anyone’s special agenda except for the Church’s.

However, if I had MY druthers, I would rather see the Church taking young men to task and holding them responsible for their contributions to the abortion problem. There’s too much talk about abortion when there should be more talk about men objectifying women and dangling committed relationships like carrots in front of women in exchange for sex…and respect for women in general. Can’t have an abortion if there’s no pregnancy, right? Many women have abortions because they are afraid and alone and don’t think they can economically support a child. I’ve never heard the Church taking young men to task when they neglect their responsibilities and thereby contribute to a woman’s decision to abort.

There are too many young and/or impressionable women who agree to have sex outside of marriage just to keep a man around. When do you ever hear the Church working to help young women develop their self-esteem aside from trying to beat abstinence into them?

For helping young women (and men) with their self-esteem - have you read Pure Manhood and Pure Womanhood? I just received them and I am definitely going to use them with my kids as they reach the pre teen years. I am also going to use “…dangling committed relationships in front of women in exchange for sex…” if you don’t mind. I love the wording there. Seriously, I’m writing it down so I don’t forget it. It’s so very descriptive.

 

[verdigirl]

For helping young women (and men) with their self-esteem - have you read Pure Manhood and Pure Womanhood? I just received them and I am definitely going to use them with my kids as they reach the pre teen years. I am also going to use “…dangling committed relationships in front of women in exchange for sex…” if you don’t mind. I love the wording there. Seriously, I’m writing it down so I don’t forget it. It’s so very descriptive.

I have not heard of those materials…I will definitely look into them. My husband and I are very vocal about the Church’s responsibility to influence gender politics between young men and women. I feel a ministry coming on…

At any rate, thank you for your comment. That creativity comes straight from the Holy Spirit and from the scars of making really bad choices in return for what I thought was love during my teenaged years. I know so many other women who have the same scars. Feel free to use liberally (no pun intended)!

Pax tecum!

 

[Brad]

Come on. The point I was addressing was what kinds of things are being preached during homilies. Unless you know of something I don’t, there aren’t going to be any regular female homiletics happening anytime soon. So my “agenda” is not material to the discussion. No cheap shots, ok?

Sorry if you interpreted that as a cheap shot. Just seemed like you were preaching to the thread. The point I was making is I have no issues with agendas as long as they adequately represent the position of the organization being represented. You, likewise, have the right to speak your mind in representation of yourself.

You’ve never heard of Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination: Guidelines for Pastoral Care? This is the statement from the US Council of Bishops released in November 2006. I quote:

Those who would minister in the name of the Church must in no way contribute to such injustice. They should prayerfully examine their own hearts in order to discern any thoughts or feelings that might stand in need of purification. Those who minister are also called to growth in holiness. In fact, the work of spreading the Good News involves an ever-increasing love for those to whom one is ministering by calling them to the truth of Jesus Christ.

Check it out yourself: usccb.org/dpp/Ministry.pdf

Dunno, sounds like a requirement for sensitivity to me. What do you think?

As an orthodox liberal feminist , I will follow the teachings of the Bishops.

Pax tecum, frater, ok?

There is a requirement of love here, not sensitivity.

Further, USCCB documents are not necessarily authoritative or binding on the faithful (not that I disagree with what you quoted, just stating the facts)

 

[verdigirl]

Sorry if you interpreted that as a cheap shot. Just seemed like you were preaching to the thread. The point I was making is I have no issues with agendas as long as they adequately represent the position of the organization being represented. You, likewise, have the right to speak your mind in representation of yourself.

There is a requirement of love here, not sensitivity.

Further, USCCB documents are not necessarily authoritative or binding on the faithful (not that I disagree with what you quoted, just stating the facts)

Well, since we were all preaching about preaching, I decided to chime in. I think we all have some pretty strong opinions here. I’m having a hard time discerning what you’re really trying to say here regarding adequately representing the position of the organization. Are you suggesting that somehow my quote from the Catechism is an inadequate representation of the Holy Mother Church? Help me to understand what you mean here.

So you think that love and sensitivity are not necessarily joined? Why is it that we’re so easy to dismiss what the Bishops teach when it doesn’t suit our hardness of hearts?

Why is it that we only follow the Bishops to the letter when they preach about abortion or other such topics, and any other time we’re quick to dismiss their teaching out of hand, even though Canon Law says we are BOUND to obey them?

I quote:

Can. 208 Flowing from their rebirth in Christ, there is a genuine equality of dignity and action among all of Christ’s faithful. Because of this equality they all contribute, each according to his or her own condition and office, to the building up of the Body of Christ.

Can. 209 ß1 Christ’s faithful are bound to preserve their communion with the Church at all times, even in their external actions.

ß2 They are to carry out with great diligence their responsibilities towards both the universal Church and the particular Church to which by law they belong.

Can. 210 All Christ’s faithful, each according to his or her own condition, must make a wholehearted effort to lead a holy life, and to promote the growth of the Church and its continual sanctification.

Can. 211 All Christ’s faithful have the obligation and the right to strive so that the divine message of salvation may more and more reach all people of all times and all places.

Can. 212 ß1 Christ’s faithful, conscious of their own responsibility, are bound to show Christian obedience to what the sacred Pastors, who represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith and prescribe as rulers of the Church.

Why are my comments considered preaching when I raise some feminist issues, when the rest of you are using the same method to expound about the topics priests should be preaching about?

Your comment almost sounds to me as if love and sensitivity are optional. It’s just too easy of an excuse to say that their teaching isn’t binding when it doesn’t fit in with a certain viewpoint.