Will the real St. Cyprian please stand up?

[AmbroseSJ]

The Donatist schism began after the death of St. Cyprian. Perhaps you are thinking of the Novatians?

Blessings,
Marduk

Oops, yes.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Thank you, brother Aramis. Once again you come to my rescue. I simply assumed brother AmbroseSJ already understood the Mormon conception behind baptism. Your explanation was great. I have always thought Mormonism is nothing more than a mishmash of ancient heresies. Nothing Christian about it. Aside from their heretical understanding of the Son and Holy Spirit, they also have a heretical view of the Father - they believe he had a beginning, and has a body.

Blessings,
Marduk

I think you may have me confused with another poster.

 

[mardukm]

I think you may have me confused with another poster.

Yes I did. See what kind of impression you have made on me, brother?

Blessings

 

[Spirithound]

If done with water, the Trinitarian formula and with the intention of doing what the Church intends.

Not “usually” but “only.”

Blessings

Ok, but how does that differ from a Mormon baptism?

 

[JohnVIII]

The subject of re-baptism, what St. Cypian thought it, what St. Basil thought it, what the Popes have thought about it, is not an issue that I really wish to engage in the debate over. What it boils down to is that this is one of the differences between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox view can be expressed by St. Cyprian or St. Basil, but the Roman Catholic view can easily be expressed by St. Augustine. Just as there is not total agreement between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches on this matter, there’s not total agreement among the church fathers either. If I were Roman Catholic I think that I would have to believe that before St. Cyprian died he must have changed his view in conformity to that of Pope Stephen, even though there’s no evidence of this; as a Roman Catholic I think I would have to take it as a matter of faith, otherwise there’s no way he could be a Saint. On the other hand as an Orthodox Christian I have no problem with anything that Saint Cyprian said. But at the same time as an Orthodox Christian I would have problems with what St. Augustine said.

Concerning schismatics St. Basil said, "Be that as it may, we rebaptize such persons. If it be objected that what we are doing is forbidden as regards this practice of rebaptism, precisely as in the case of the present day Romans, for the sake of economy, yet we insist that our rule prevail. (Canon 47 of St. Basil).

Please take note that Saint Basil use the term “the present day Romans”. Evidently St. Basil believed that the opinions of Rome are changeable!

Canon number 68 of the holy apostles says, “If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon except a second ordination from anyone, let him and the one who ordained him be deposed. Unless it be established that his ordination has been performed by heretics. For those who have been baptized or ordained by such persons cannot possibly be either faithful Christians or clergyman”.

One more interesting point is that Saint Basil lived after the First Ecumenical Council but died before the Second Ecumenical Council, so the part in the Nicene creed that says, “one baptism for the remission of sins” was not yet part of the Nicene Creed at the time of St. Basil. The Novatians were considered schismatic, and they were also known for rebaptizing not just heretics and schismatics but even those who committed serious sins. Perhaps the “one baptism for the remission of sins” was added to the Creed to make the issue one of faith as opposed to one of discipline.

 

[Ghosty]

If I were Roman Catholic I think that I would have to believe that before St. Cyprian died he must have changed his view in conformity to that of Pope Stephen, even though there’s no evidence of this; as a Roman Catholic I think I would have to take it as a matter of faith, otherwise there’s no way he could be a Saint.

No such requirement exists. He died a martyr for the Faith, and that more than cancels any sins he may have committed.

Heck, we even have Saints, such as St. Gregory Palamas (being discussed in another thread) who were known to have been born and died in Schism, and other Saints such as St. Catherine of Sienna who not only disagreed with the Pope of her time, but directly confronted him and changed his mind.

It seems like you might have a warped view of the Papacy and how it functions and what it means for the Catholic Communion.

Peace and God bless!

 

[mardukm]

One more interesting point is that Saint Basil lived after the First Ecumenical Council but died before the Second Ecumenical Council, so the part in the Nicene creed that says, “one baptism for the remission of sins” was not yet part of the Nicene Creed at the time of St. Basil. The Novatians were considered schismatic, and they were also known for rebaptizing not just heretics and schismatics but even those who committed serious sins. Perhaps the “one baptism for the remission of sins” was added to the Creed to make the issue one of faith as opposed to one of discipline.

That’s a good point. And it would make your argument credible, if not for the fact that the Second Ecumenical Council ALSO ACCEPTED the baptism of the Novatians, and ONLY enjoined chrismation on them.

I will respond to the rest of your post later.

Blessings