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Mike_from_NJ
Guest
Did Caiaphas (the high preist) also see the other signs that were foretold including the stars falling from the sky? Did all the tribes of the earth also see Jesus in the clouds and also not understand it?
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PNEUMA
Guest
Yes, Caiaphas and the other chief priests were replaced by Jesus and the Apostles
Jesus is the bright morning star in Revelation 22:16
The Apostles are the twelve stars in Revelation 12:1
The seven stars are the angels (priests) of the seven churches in Revelation 1:20
In other words, stars are just metaphors for chief priests. The new heaven are the new stars, the new priesthood.
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Mike_from_NJ
Guest
The signs given in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24 to signify Jesus’ imminent return include:
Wars and rumors of wars
Earthquakes
False messiahs and prophets
The sun going dark
The moon not giving off light
Stars falling from the sky
The heavens shaken
Now you are saying that the part about stars falling from the sky refers to high priests being replaced. In the context of the rest of the discourse, Jesus seems to be giving very clear-cut observable things. Are those other items on that list also to be interpreted symbolically? If so, how? What good is a prophecy if it’s so very unclear as to whether it has been or will be fulfilled?
Also regarding the numerous calls of Jesus returning in the clouds, the various verses say that everyone – not just Caiaphas and not just the Apostles – will see this. If this occurred, did it happen literally? I would think not since we don’t have reports of people seeing Jesus in the clouds. If it’s symbolic is it accurate to say that everyone witnessed it (Matthew 24:30 is very specific that all the people of the earth will witness it)?
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PNEUMA
Guest
Yes, it’s all hidden talk
The sun, the moon, the stars = the chief priests
The heaven = the realm of the chief priests
The earth = the lower level
And yes, ordinary people witnessed it.
This is the new heaven, Jesus and the Apostles are integrated into them.
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Mike_from_NJ
Guest
Are the earthquakes listed as a sign also symbolic? If so, of what?
What does it mean when the gospel says that Jesus would be returning in the clouds for everyone to see? Does it mean there would be a sight of Jesus literally in the clouds? If so, then are you saying that everyone on Earth saw it (because that doesn’t appear to have occurred)? Does it mean the replacement of the high priests? If so, certainly not everyone saw that. And even so, why would it be described as the son of man coming in the clouds?
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PNEUMA
Guest
in the clouds = exalted (lifted high up) (sit in high office) (in power)
earthquakes = unrest at the lower level (political earthquakes) (changing power structures)
Matthew 28:18 “And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
So which is it you’re voting for, for the Second Coming? Physical, Spiritual, Both, or, um, “Neither?”
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Mike_from_NJ
Guest
I think the language these things were written in suggest a literal second coming, not the changeover of preistly leadership. It’s apocalyptic language warning people of the signs of the end of things.
Reading through Mark 13 and the parallel passages we see things like:
14“When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 17How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.
20“If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive.
Mark 13:32-37 is the well known set of verses about Jesus not knowing the day or hour of his return, which the Catechism sources (673) as Jesus’ return at a time decided by God the Father.
Matthew 24:30 says that when the Son of Man returns in the clouds all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
Luke 21:26
People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
1 Corinthians 7:29
This therefore I say, brethren; the time is short; it remaineth, that they also who have wives, be as if they had none;
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord. Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words.
1 Peter 4:7
But the end of all is at hand. Be prudent therefore, and watch in prayers.
James 5:8-9
Be you therefore also patient, and strengthen your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
Grudge not, brethren, one against another, that you may not be judged. Behold the judge standeth before the door.
That last one may be a reference to this passage in Mark 13:29
So you also when you shall see these things come to pass, know ye that it is very nigh, even at the doors.
Again this is all apocolyptic language. The problem is that there are multiple passages which also say that these events would happen soon, and they didn’t. To me this was a prophecy which gave events and times but which was not fulfilled. And now people are giving explanations (often in conflict with one another) as to how to explain away this unfulfilled prophecy. Worse, none of these explanations are cohesive and wither under scrutiny.
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hu324b
Guest
by Augustine of Hippo, 354-430 A.D.
“We should have no doubt that our mortal flesh also will rise again at the end of the world… This is the Christian faith. This is the Catholic faith. This is the apostolic faith. Believe Christ when he says, ‘Not a hair of your head shall perish’ Putting aside all unbelief, consider how valuable you are. How can our Redeemer despise any person when he cannot despise a hair of that person’s head? How are we going to doubt that he intends to give eternal life to our soul and body? He took on a soul and body in which to die for us, which he laid down for us when he died and which he took up again that we might not fear death.” (excerpt from Sermon 214.11-12)
“We should have no doubt that our mortal flesh also will rise again at the end of the world… This is the Christian faith. This is the Catholic faith. This is the apostolic faith. Believe Christ when he says, ‘Not a hair of your head shall perish’ Putting aside all unbelief, consider how valuable you are. How can our Redeemer despise any person when he cannot despise a hair of that person’s head? How are we going to doubt that he intends to give eternal life to our soul and body? He took on a soul and body in which to die for us, which he laid down for us when he died and which he took up again that we might not fear death.” (excerpt from Sermon 214.11-12)
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