Will the Tridentine Mass have a "renaissance" soon?

[CaliJournalist]

I’ve only attended a Tridentine mass once in my life, and I consider it the best mass I’ve ever attended. There’s something about the ancient traditions and rituals in the Tridentine mass that makes you get goose bumps, in a great way of course. His Holiness, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI granted more freedom for the dioceses to have Latin masses, but I’ve noticed that in my diocese for example, the return of the Latin mass really hasn’t happened. Is there a way the people can ask the bishop to allow a return of the Latin mass to parishes within my diocese? I know the provincial archbishop, the Archbishop of San Francisco has returned the Latin mass to several parishes in his archdiocese, but can he get bishops within his province to follow suit?

 

[Marie5890]

BroJR has explained to us in the past that there has to be priests who are 1) willing to pray the Latin Mass and 2) have a workable knowledge of Latin to do so (something like that)…

If you do a search on the subject and BroJREducation, you will find his explanation.

 

[GangGreen]

It’s been very slow, but it’s growing. They are popping up here and there as more and more people go to them and then start requesting them in their own parishes. However, I think there’s a lot of resistance in the old guard of priests. I think there still some older priests who want to do it, but a large portion of them look down on it. I’m sure that this also plays into the ones that want to do it not doing it (peer pressure). Of course there’s also the need for knowledge of Latin which unfortunately has escaped the current generation of priests. Serving in the Mass only requires one to memorize the main prayers. The priest needs to be able to read different Latin texts at a decent pace. It requires much more knowledge of the language.

I think that as more younger men come into the priesthood it will begin to grow more. Today’s young priests seem to be more in touch with the traditional aspects of Catholicism than the middle aged/older priests.

 

[BookofJames]

You have to think of the politics. If parishes began making radical changes in the liturgy, the bulk of the laypeople will be turned off to it because they’re so used to the other form.
Plus, due to a lack of chetechisis, they won’t understand what’s going on. Many of them might stop going to mass, or leave the Chrich all together. Plus the pastor would get burdened with complaints, adding to his already strenous workload. So many problems would arise that making a change like this world cause more bad than good. A LOT more bad than good.

The majority of the people are going to have to want it back before we see the tridentine mass in a diocese or parish.

 

[GangGreen]

You have to think of the politics. If parishes began making radical changes in the liturgy, the bulk of the laypeople will be turned off to it because they’re so used to the other form.
Plus, due to a lack of chetechisis, they won’t understand what’s going on. Many of them might stop going to mass, or leave the Chrich all together. Plus the pastor would get burdened with complaints, adding to his already strenous workload. So many problems would arise that making a change like this world cause more bad than good. A LOT more bad than good.

The majority of the people are going to have to want it back before we see the tridentine mass in a diocese or parish.

There are some things about this though.

Many people are unaware of /have never been to the EF Mass.

Many people don’t have access the EF Mass.

Many people are unwilling to travel to other parishes than their own to go to a different Mass.

That means that people don’t even have an ability to even try it or even know it exists. If they never try it, then they have no ability know whether they like it more than the OF.

Even if there is a demand for it, many parishes are resistant to adding it.

Many priests who are now in their 50s+ don’t like it and look down upon it. They also look negatively upon their peers who offer EF Masses.

If every Church offered the EF Mass and it wasn’t popular I could understand what you’re saying. Plus, it’s not with the creation of the OF where the Mass was switched all at once. Offering even one EF Mass per week in every church wouldn’t change much to the people who are used to the OF except give them the option to try something different.

 

[PietroPaolo]

You have to think of the politics. If parishes began making radical changes in the liturgy, the bulk of the laypeople will be turned off to it because they’re so used to the other form.
Plus, due to a lack of chetechisis, they won’t understand what’s going on. Many of them might stop going to mass, or leave the Chrich all together. Plus the pastor would get burdened with complaints, adding to his already strenous workload. So many problems would arise that making a change like this world cause more bad than good. A LOT more bad than good.

The majority of the people are going to have to want it back before we see the tridentine mass in a diocese or parish.

Wasn’t this also true in 1969? Did a “majority of the people” want to get rid of the Mass as they, and their ancestors for a millennium, knew it? If the vernacular Mass could be imposed in the 60’s, so can the TLM be imposed today.

 

[YoungTradCath]

You have to think of the politics. If parishes began making radical changes in the liturgy, the bulk of the laypeople will be turned off to it because they’re so used to the other form.
Plus, due to a lack of chetechisis, they won’t understand what’s going on. Many of them might stop going to mass, or leave the Chrich all together. Plus the pastor would get burdened with complaints, adding to his already strenous workload. So many problems would arise that making a change like this world cause more bad than good. A LOT more bad than good.

The majority of the people are going to have to want it back before we see the tridentine mass in a diocese or parish.

Well, the bulk of people will likely not have to attend it, either.

 

[PietroPaolo]

I’ve only attended a Tridentine mass once in my life, and I consider it the best mass I’ve ever attended. There’s something about the ancient traditions and rituals in the Tridentine mass that makes you get goose bumps, in a great way of course. His Holiness, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI granted more freedom for the dioceses to have Latin masses, but I’ve noticed that in my diocese for example, the return of the Latin mass really hasn’t happened. Is there a way the people can ask the bishop to allow a return of the Latin mass to parishes within my diocese? I know the provincial archbishop, the Archbishop of San Francisco has returned the Latin mass to several parishes in his archdiocese, but can he get bishops within his province to follow suit?

Thanks to the provisions of Summorum Pontificum you no longer need the permission of the local ordinary (i.e. your bishop) to have a Tridentine Mass at your local parish. All you need is a “stable group” of people willing to attend and a priest who is willing to say the Mass. It will also help if your stable group can afford to help father purchase the necessary items for the celebration of a Mass in the older form. God bless.

 

[sw85]

Yes, you can ask the bishop. The request is likely to be ignored if it’s just you by yourself so I’d recommend getting a group of people together who all want it. The bishop can then look into supplying your expressed need, either by asking if any priests nearby are willing to celebrate it (most aren’t) or possibly arranging for a mission from a traditionalist order (most of whom are already overstretched). You could just cut out the middleman and find a priest willing to celebrate it. Be aware it’s not easy – you need to provide money for vestments, Missals, altar cards, etc., as well as training for the priest if he doesn’t have it already, which he probably doesn’t.

The first step is finding a priest. Good luck with that; I myself have literally been laughed at by a priest for making that request.

 

[M-Dent]

I do believe (for good reason) it still remains possible to be enriched by this Liturgy in different communities. Though a widely visible revival of the use of the 1962 Roman Missal? No. I don’t believe so.

I’ll share from some limited experience, in case it’s helpful.

I have witnessed a group of parishioners ask a local pastor to offer the Liturgy using the1962 Roman Missal. The group was active and respected in the parish. And things were in place to make it do-able.

We were blessed to have a pastor who had a background that was helpful (Master’s Degree in Classics). He happened to be a teacher (taught Latin at High School) prior to his ordination to the priesthood. He understood why some parishioners were drawn to this form of the Mass. He was also open to dedicating time and energy to learning all the rubrics. He had multiple male Altar Servers who volunteered. A choir volunteer. The Church architecture was very suitable.

Unfortunately, our pastor developed cancer. The disease spread very rapidly. It is still painful that we lost him. We not only lost a very knowledgeable priest but a good and demanding confessor.

By the grace of God another pastor was assigned who happened to newly learn the rubrics of the 1962 Missal. He agreed to continue the use as deemed appropriate. He is a very faithful priest yet has a different background and outlook. He has a pastoral sense about those who are drawn to this liturgy and some who travel far for it. This is his basis for it’s use. He audits the health of the parish in his subtle ways. It’s good but also demanding.

But when our current pastor moves on…we may not see the use of this Missal again. This has been discussed.

So, again, things need to be in place as well as the stability and the spirit of the community is a big factor.

In theory, the Church supports it’s continued use - even looking outside of SP,

CCC 1206 "Liturgical diversity can be a source of enrichment, but it can also provoke tensions, mutual misunderstandings, and even schisms. In this matter it is clear that diversity must not damage unity. It must express only fidelity to the common faith, to the sacramental signs that the Church has received from Christ, and to hierarchical communion."

and SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM

Even in the liturgy, the Church has no wish to impose a rigid uniformity in matters which do not implicate the faith or the good of the whole community; rather does she respect and foster the genius and talents of the various races and peoples

 

[aTraditionalist]

BookofJames:

You have to think of the politics. If parishes began making radical changes in the liturgy, the bulk of the laypeople will be turned off to it because they’re so used to the other form.
Plus, due to a lack of chetechisis, they won’t understand what’s going on. Many of them might stop going to mass, or leave the Chrich all together. Plus the pastor would get burdened with complaints, adding to his already strenous workload. So many problems would arise that making a change like this world cause more bad than good. A LOT more bad than good.

The majority of the people are going to have to want it back before we see the tridentine mass in a diocese or parish.

I’m not trying to throw a grenade in the room, but isn’t this what basically happened post Vatican II?

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

 

[Mike30]

I would be inclined to doubt that there will ever be a big revival of the Extraordinary Form. There is just too much opposition to it on the part of the Bishops and the Priests for it to really gain much more of a position than it has now. Remember, it only reached where it is now because of grassroot support coupled with help from two Popes sympathetic to it. While I don’t think the current Holy Father will try to ban it or openly discourage it, I also don’t think he will do much of anything to promote it.

 

[JReducation]

I don’t think it’s as much opposition as it is a knee-jerk reaction. In my diocese the form is celebrated in several parishes. In fact some parishes have a Latin Mass Committee. But there have been problems. It’s an uphill endeavor.

One problem has been that the mainstream Catholic is not warn toward the Traditionalist Catholic. Let’s admit this and get it out of the way. The problem is like a coin. There are two sides. Some Traditionalist Catholics have had to be turned away. These few individuals have made life very hard for other Traditionalists. Their approach is very hostile. They demand a TLM. They do not factor in several important points.

1. If a parish has two priests and 7 masses, it’s already over its limit; because a priest is not supposed to celebrate more than two masses on any given day. This parish has to find priests to celebrate those three masses. To demand that this pastor create space for a TLM is not a reasonable demand. No pastor has the right to bump an OF mass with 800 people and replace it with an EF mass for 100. He can’t displace 700 people. That’s not part of SP.
2. One must factor in that no priest is obliged to do the extraordinary. Just because a priest knows how to celebrate the EF, he is not bound to celebrate it. Some priests have a knee-jerk reaction to the notion that they must celebrate it, because they know it. I know some young priests who, typical of the young, have locked in their brakes and have said that they will never celebrate the EF. When asked why not? Their answer is simple. They will not be told what to do by the laity. The laity has to learn to request, beg, negotiate, bargain, you name it. But if you demand, some people are going to shut down.
3. Then there is the issue of relationships. Many of the laity in our area are SSPX supporters. The Holy Father (Benedict) said that request from laymen who belong to these groups should not be given the EF. This was in the letter that followed SP. You can find it for yourself. Superiors of religious priests are hesitant to lend their priests to groups that are sympathetic to groups whose relationship with the Church is in a state of flux. Religious superiors and priests don’t want to appear as if we’re supportive of such groups, while we very much care about the laymen. But until the laymen pull way way back from those groups, there is a hesitation. We don’t want to be guilty by association.
4. There is also the question of cleaning up the nonsense that has taken place in the OF. Having the EF is fine, but that does not resolve the nonsense in the OF. Pastors, bishops and religious superiors want to do this as well. They want to encourage priests and laity alike to get it right.

These and many other points have to be considered when making requests for the TLM. My suggestion has always been to offer assistance with the OF and the OF community. Don’t make your request sound as if you’re above the mainstream Catholic. First of all, we’re not.

I always use this example. My religious community is as traditional as Franciscans can get. We follow the constitutions that were written in the 13th century. But we speak about OUR Franciscan family. We do not look at other Franciscan communities as being less Franciscan than we are. We have a common spiritual father, St. Francis. We have a common rule of life that he gave us. We have a common worldview. We have a common mission. The differences are accidentals, not essentials. They are in matters of disciplines, not in matters essential to the religious life of a Franciscan.

The same attitude has to be adopted by the Traditionalist layman who aspires for an EF mass at his parish. He has to see himself as part of the local Church, not above or to the side. In those parishes where the EF is celebrated, it has succeeded, because the people who attend the EF limit themselves to that. Everything else they do with the parish community and they follow the mainstream in all other matters. They have the same CCD classes, the same marriage preparation classes. They do not use the older books for Baptisms. They go through the same baptismal and confirmation rite with everyone else. Weddings are different, because weddings are not done in groups. You have flexibility there. If the priest or deacon knows the older marriage rite, you can ask for it.

There is resistance in the mainstream, but there has to be some flexibility among those who want to see the EF in a parish. I think it’s very important to be an active member of a parish. When a person does not actively participate in a parish and then asks for the EF, it comes off the wrong way. It comes off as “holier than thou”. I don’t think that’s the impression that we want to give.

 

[tradcathconvert]

While I don’t think the current Holy Father will try to ban it or openly discourage it, I also don’t think he will do much of anything to promote it.

That is also my guess as to what Pope Francis will do. It seems that between our Pope Emeritus -author of Summorum Pontificum- and Pope Francis, Benedict XVI is the one most interested in the liturgy. If Pope Francis decides to do anything about the EF, it will probably be things along the lines of adding new Prefaces, adding saints to the Calendar, etc. Which, come to think of it, even Pope Benedict probably would have approved.

 

[AdvocatusVerbum]

I love the Novus Ordo and see all it’s elements in the Extraordinary Form, and personally accept it as fully valid, but I haven’t been the same since I attended the Extraordinary Form. I was moved and love that tender feeling I got from the Asperges through the sung Ite Missa Est and Last Gospel.

I think my parishes structure is perfectly designed for it still with a large sanctuary which still has the kneelers at it’s border… I hope to be able to help gather a group and organize at least one regularly scheduled Extraordinary Form mass.

 

[JReducation]

That is also my guess as to what Pope Francis will do. It seems that between our Pope Emeritus -author of Summorum Pontificum- and Pope Francis, Benedict XVI is the one most interested in the liturgy. If Pope Francis decides to do anything about the EF, it will probably be things along the lines of adding new Prefaces, adding saints to the Calendar, etc. Which, come to think of it, even Pope Benedict probably would have approved.

Do not make the mistake of holding one pope up against the other. Think about this as if Benedict XVI had died. He is no longer pope. He has no voice in this matter. His SP is not binding on any pope. Therefore, whatever Pope Francis does or any pope after him is NOT contrary to Pope Benedict. It is his magisterium that he is exercising and he has a right to do so. We have a duty to be supportive of his right.

The Extraordinary Form is not Pope Benedict’s mass. What Pope Benedict did was to say that the Tridentine Form has never been abrogated; therefore, it could be celebrated as long as these conditions were followed and then he gave the conditions.

This does not mean that the current pope or a future pope cannot abrogate the Tridentine Form. The Tridentine form is not part of the deposit of faith. The Eucharist is, but not the form of the mass, regardless of how Pope Pius V and Trent worded it. Neither has the authority to bind the Church to the Tridentine Form in perpetuity.

If we fall into the mindset of this pope said this, so we like him and this pope does that and we’re not with him, then we end up splitting. This is not healthy spirituality. The spiritual life has to look for unity of mind and soul.

 

[rben20]

It’s hard to really gauge if there will be a renaissance but we can only hope in the least that the Tridentine Mass can bring more reverence to the OF. Benedict XVI freed its use not only to bring in those who left after the changes but also to enrich the OF by being offered beside it.

The liturgy will continue to be a second thought I feel among the leadership of the Church including the pope. A part of me is saddened by this but I must trust they know what is needed best.

Things do look promising however. Those parishes that want to recapture the sacred are booming with parishioners and future seminarians. It is definitely a challenge since we are now two generations removed, with some people not even knowing what the EF of the Mass is. As Father Z says, “brick by brick.”

 

[corsair]

Friends of mine live in Rome and they tell me that last year there were only 3 regular EF Sunday Masses in the city. This year she says there are 8. Now that is quite a jump. Compare this to the year 2006.

I think we’ve come a long way.

 

[OriginalJS]

It’s been very slow, but it’s growing. They are popping up here and there as more and more people go to them and then start requesting them in their own parishes. However, I think there’s a lot of resistance in the old guard of priests. I think there still some older priests who want to do it, but a large portion of them look down on it. I’m sure that this also plays into the ones that want to do it not doing it (peer pressure). Of course there’s also the need for knowledge of Latin which unfortunately has escaped the current generation of priests. Serving in the Mass only requires one to memorize the main prayers. The priest needs to be able to read different Latin texts at a decent pace. It requires much more knowledge of the language.

I think that as more younger men come into the priesthood it will begin to grow more. Today’s young priests seem to be more in touch with the traditional aspects of Catholicism than the middle aged/older priests.

I think this is correct. One older priest told me it would be quite a job to learn the Tridintine Mass and he had not used the Latin he had learned in the fifties for years. Also he reminded me that the great majority of parishioners had had no Latin exposure whereas until about forty years ago many had at some rudimentary exposure in Catholic schools.

 

[Brendan]

I think this is correct. One older priest told me it would be quite a job to learn the Tridintine Mass and he had not used the Latin he had learned in the fifties for years. .

Our Pastor added an EF Mass shortly after Summorium Pontificum came out. He spent a week with the priests of St. John Cantius in Chicago to learn it.

Interestingly enough, the Canons of St. John Cantius will be at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit next week, offering instruction on the EF Mass to the seminarians and to any diocesan priests who are interested.