Will the True Hebrew Bible Please Stand Up!

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meltzerboy

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There is an age-old controversy concerning which of the scriptural texts is the “correct” version of the Hebrew Bible: the later Masoretic Text, written in Hebrew, or the much earlier Septuagint LXX, written in Greek but perhaps based on a Hebrew text called the Vorlage. While the Masoretic Text is the one currently used in Judaism (adopted since the Middle Ages, if not prior), some believe it has been significantly redacted by rabbis for the purpose of omitting the godly aspects of the Messiah, which they claim do appear in the Septuagint. In addition, it is reported that the Septuagint most resembles the Qumran text (Dead Sea Scrolls) with regard to the most significant aspects, though on many minor details the Masoretic Text bears a closer resemblance.

What is your opinion on this heated scholarly debate? And which text is preferred by Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants? Is there not also a Latin version of the Hebrew Bible compiled by Jerome, and does this text lend itself more to the Masoretic version or the Septuagint? Finally, might it be the case that both texts–the Masoretic and the Septuagint–have been redacted and that the Dead Sea Scrolls present the most accurate account?
 
My personal opinion is that, BOTH textual traditions are correct. I know that there are some folks that may appear as if they’re attacking the supposedly ‘late’ Masoretic text in favor of the Hebrew text underlying the Septuagint, but both textual traditions are actually of equal antiquity.

The Masoretic Text had origins long before the Judeo-Christian scuffles of the earlier half of the first millenium, and before the Masoretes standardized the text between the 7th and 11th centuries, as is testified by the Dead Sea Scrolls. In addition, in some readings, the oldest Biblical fragments we have among the Dead Sea Scrolls support the Septuagint over the Masoretic, proving that many of the variants in Greek were also present in early Semitic manuscripts. The scrolls also show numerous small variations in orthography, both as against the later Masoretic text, and between each other. It is also evident from the notings of corrections and of variant alternatives that scribes felt free to choose according to their personal taste and discretion between different readings. All this shows that in this period, there was not always the scrupulous uniformity of text that was so stressed among Jews in later centuries.

Yes, much has been made of that fact that Hebrew texts agreeing with the Septuagint have been found, but a good deal of the fragments actually represent the ancestor of our Masoretic text. The exact figures and classification methods are still under debate, but one estimate has it that 60% of the Biblical scrolls and fragments found can be classified as being of proto-Masoretic type, and a further 20% ‘Qumran style’ (a term for texts with distinctive long orthography and morphology, frequent errors and corrections, and a rather free approach to the text) with bases in proto-Masoretic texts, compared to 15% which reflect the textual form found in the Samaritan Pentateuch, 5% which share distinctive affinities with the Greek Septuagint, and 10% non-aligned (those that show no consistent alignment with any of the other four text-types). These ‘independent’ texts fall into two categories: those inconsistent in agreeing with other known types (i.e. they agree with one textual type in one portion and with another type in the other), and those that diverge significantly from all other known readings.

So I think it’s not so much a question about which is ‘earlier’ or which is ‘later’, but which textual tradition a certain text represents, since the original Septuagint provided a reasonably accurate record of an early Hebrew textual variant (which we now know exists, as mentioned above) that differed from the ancestor of the Masoretic text as well as those of the Latin Vulgate, where both of the latter seem to have a more similar textual heritage.
 
agape bible study has some very detailed information, under “Church History” and “Documents”…these excerpts are taken from just a small amount of info. available there…God bless!!!

In 250 BC the Hebrew collection of Sacred Scripture was translated for the first time into Greek. This translation was called the Septuagint (named for the 70/72 Hebrew scholars who worked on the translation). 1 & 2 Maccabees and other books were added after this first Greek translation. All 46 books that we have in our modern Old Testament translations were the same 46 books that Jesus read and studied. Saint Peter and the first century Church adopted the Septuagint translation and the 46 books of the Old Testament (Covenant) as the official Bible of the New Covenant Catholic (Universal) Church.

In the first century AD Christians were effectively using the Septuagint Old Testament translation to prove that Jesus Christ was the promised Davidic Messiah who fulfilled the covenant God made with King David in the 10th century BC; a promised repeated ever since that time in the books of the holy prophets. For this reason the Septuagint Greek translation became an anathema to the Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah

The Jewish rabbis were desperate to save their Old Covenant faith but with the death of almost all the priestly families and the destruction of the Temple [the only place where sacrifice to Yahweh could be offered] they would have to re-invent the Jewish faith. Yohanan ben Zakkai, a disciple of the great rabbinic scholar Hillel, and recognized as one of the great surviving Jewish scholars, took the few surviving priests, rabbis and scribes with him to the village of Jamnia where they settled and began to assess the situation. The rabbis were determined to fight Christianity and to preserve the “sacred trust”, as they understood it.

The goal of Rabbinic Judaism was to first record the oral traditions not contained in Sacred Scripture and second, to produce a new Greek translation of Sacred Scripture which could not be used so effectively by Christians to prove that Jesus of Nazareth was the promised Davidic Messiah. A new Greek translation was produced by Jewish rabbis of Jamnia beginning circa 100AD which manipulated the Old Testament prophecies to change the wording and make the text less likely to be used as a proof of Jesus’ fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

While the Jamnian Palestinian version [still written in the Greek language] may have been composed in good faith in an attempt to save Judaism, it was a fabrication in the sense of being a set of texts purposefully changed and then presented as if it was the genuine ancient version

This Jamnian-Greek version as well as a possible Hebrew version re-translated later by Aquila and others from the revised Greek version was eventually used to produce an authorized Hebrew Bible text by the Masoretic scholars in the Middle Ages, composed of textual variations which are different from the original text of the Greek Septuagint.

As a result, errors crept into the Old and New Testament manuscripts by the late fourth century.
 
In 250 BC the Hebrew collection of Sacred Scripture was translated for the first time into Greek. This translation was called the Septuagint (named for the 70/72 Hebrew scholars who worked on the translation).
So goes the famous early legend about it, first attested in the pseudepigraphical Letter of Aristeas (2nd century BC) and repeated with embellishments in Philo, Josephus and various later Jewish and Christian sources. According to this story, seventy-two Jewish scholars first translated the Torah into Koine Greek in a period of exactly seventy-two days.

Now it is generally thought that the translation process actually took much longer, being undertaken in stages between the 3rd century BC and perhaps even as late as the 1st century AD, initially in Alexandria, but in time possibly elsewhere as well. I quote myself from a few months ago:
Based on The Septuagint by Jennifer Dines and Michael Knibb (2004):

Most scholars opt for a date of early- to mid-3rd century BC (ca. 280-250 BC) for the Torah. The following are the main arguments, with the problems they entail:

  1. *] The Letter of Aristeas (which promulgated the well-known legend of the seventy-two translators) has at least some historical plausibility, albeit not without difficulties arising from the work’s literary genre and the author’s agenda.
    *] “Biblical quotations or allusions supposing knowledge of the Septuagint occur in Hellenistic Jewish writers from the end of the third century BCE onwards. If the attributions are reliable, and if the allusions are really based on the LXX, then this evidence, though meagre, is precious. But certainty is difficult to establish.”
    *] Based on internal evidence, the other books of the Septuagint utilize the vocabulary of the Greek Torah, which “is important for relative dating but does not in itself clinch a date for the original translation.”
    *] The Greek reflects an identifiable stage in the development of Koine consonant with the early 3rd century BC. This is probably the strongest argument, but it is doubtful how precise, as yet, the results can be.

    As for the other books, there are no stories about the translations of these books to help or hinder understanding, so scholars have to make do with dating them using internal evidence. The book gives the following dates, but one must keep in mind that “[n]early all the attempts at dating” these other books “are very tentative and there is seldom a concensus.”
    1. *]Most of the historical books from Joshua to 1-2 Paraleipomenōn (Chronicles) tend to be placed in the 2nd century BC, somewhat earlier than 2 Esdras and Deuterocanon. Ruth, meanwhile, is usually dated to the 1st century AD. The colophon to Greek Esther yields a date before which the translation must have been made, as it claims to have been brought to Egypt in “the fourth year of Ptolemy and Cleopatra” (11:1). Depending on which Ptolemy and Cleopatra is meant, it could be either 114, or 78-77, or 48 BC. That being said, there are also doubts among some as to the authenticity of the colophon.
      ]As for the wisdom books, Psalms tend to be dated somewhere in the 2nd century, though some have opted for a late-3rd century BC date, and others to the 1st. Proverbs and Job are usually placed in the latter half of the 2nd century BC. Sirach can be dated fairly precisely from the translator’s prologue to between 132 and 116; scholars are divided between an earlier and a later dating. Wisdom and the Psalms of Solomon are usually assigned to the late-1st century BC, and so, for different reasons, is the Song of Songs. Ecclesiastes may be even later.
      ]The prophetic books are "[f]or the moment…mostly assigned to the mid-second century BCE and later, largely from their supposed reflection of, and in some cases, allusions to, contemporary events (Maccabean, Hasmonean, Roman, etc.). Relative connections are tentatively established by these references, where they are secure, and by attempts to establish dependence of one book on another. Daniel must be later than its Semitic source, so dates from the mid-second century BCE at the earliest.
      "
 
1 & 2 Maccabees and other books were added after this first Greek translation. All 46 books that we have in our modern Old Testament translations were the same 46 books that Jesus read and studied. Saint Peter and the first century Church adopted the Septuagint translation and the 46 books of the Old Testament (Covenant) as the official Bible of the New Covenant Catholic (Universal) Church.
It’s really hard to say; for one, it is likely that there was yet no fixed canon of Scripture at the time of Jesus, and the whole idea of having various books of Scripture under one cover is a relatively late development. For one, even if we suppose that a Scriptural canon was already in existence in the 1st century, in a world where most of the population is illiterate, where printing machines did not yet exist and book-copying was expensive, it would have been impossible to make a scroll that contained all the books. That would have been time-consuming, obscenely expensive, and not to mention very unwieldy. Even if we grant that each book had its own scroll/s, not every individual/synagogue could have afforded to commission and buy them all: at best, they would have only possessed those books which are more frequently read than others. So IMHO it’s highly unlikely that Jesus and the disciples had a ‘Bible’ in our modern sense of the word, which is what your source may seem to be implying here.
In the first century AD Christians were effectively using the Septuagint Old Testament translation to prove that Jesus Christ was the promised Davidic Messiah who fulfilled the covenant God made with King David in the 10th century BC; a promised repeated ever since that time in the books of the holy prophets. For this reason the Septuagint Greek translation became an anathema to the Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah
The Jewish rabbis were desperate to save their Old Covenant faith but with the death of almost all the priestly families and the destruction of the Temple [the only place where sacrifice to Yahweh could be offered] they would have to re-invent the Jewish faith. Yohanan ben Zakkai, a disciple of the great rabbinic scholar Hillel, and recognized as one of the great surviving Jewish scholars, took the few surviving priests, rabbis and scribes with him to the village of Jamnia where they settled and began to assess the situation. The rabbis were determined to fight Christianity and to preserve the “sacred trust”, as they understood it.
Oh no, not the ‘Council of Jamnia’…😃 I would again shamelessly quote myself (sorry for being so repetitive 😊):

Before the fall of Jerusalem, Rabbi Johanan ben-Zakkai established an academy at Yavneh which proceeded to function like a Sanhedrin between the period between the Jewish revolts of AD 70-132. He was then succeeded by Rabbi Gamaliel II. Somewhere between AD 80 and AD 117 Gamaliel was deposed for a time; Eleazar ben-Azariah was installed as head of the Yavneh academy. According to the Mishnah, at the day of Eleazar’s installation, the sages ruled that both Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes “make the hands unclean” (i.e. holy). The same passage goes on to state that “all the Holy Scriptures render the hands unclean”, and so it is clear that the point at issue was whether the two books ranked among the Scriptures. This passage is then followed by a series of enactments introduced by the phrase “on that day” (Mishnah Yadaim 3.5-4.4). Later tradition (Talmud, tractate Berakhoth 28a), taking this formula at face value, claimed that every ruling prefixed by the phrase were indeed made on the same occasion.

This is where Heinrich Graetz and his ilk seem to get the idea of a ‘Council of Jamnia’. But even if we grant that something similar to it did exist, it should not be interpreted in the same way as Christian use of the term ‘council’, Nicaea- or even Vatican II-style. Admittedly, the term ‘council’ does have the disadvantage of making people assume official action taken at specific meetings held at specific dates.

On the contrary, it would seem that the deliberations at Yavneh were closer to the character of a school, academy, or court. All that the story about the Songs of Songs and Ecclesiastes tell us was that there was some debate about the exact status of these books. In fact, it would seem that the dispute were not terminated by the decisions at Yavneh: even as late as the late 2nd century, Rabbi Meir (circa 135-170), famous as one of the greatest of the Tannaim of the fourth generation, was disputing the idea that Ecclesiastes defiled the hands! There is no evidence that the status of other Writings was debated, or that a final decision was reached in Yavneh.

Thus, the idea of a Council of Jamnia that is analogous to Christian Church councils has no foundation. The Jamnia hypothesis however, admits of a looser definition. Hence, many of those who continue to accept the hypothesis now define the term as a loose one (and an unsatisfactory one at that), more of a convenient catch-all symbol designating the decisions that the schools that gathered at Yavneh had reached, which could represent the crystallization of long processes that occurred in early Judaism. In any case, it is even doubtful whether the actions of the academy at Yavneh were official decisions; there was probably no body in Judaism that functioned in an ‘official’ capacity post-AD 70.
 
The goal of Rabbinic Judaism was to first record the oral traditions not contained in Sacred Scripture and second, to produce a new Greek translation of Sacred Scripture which could not be used so effectively by Christians to prove that Jesus of Nazareth was the promised Davidic Messiah. A new Greek translation was produced by Jewish rabbis of Jamnia beginning circa 100AD which manipulated the Old Testament prophecies to change the wording and make the text less likely to be used as a proof of Jesus’ fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.
While the Jamnian Palestinian version [still written in the Greek language] may have been composed in good faith in an attempt to save Judaism, it was a fabrication in the sense of being a set of texts purposefully changed and then presented as if it was the genuine ancient version
This Jamnian-Greek version as well as a possible Hebrew version re-translated later by Aquila and others from the revised Greek version was eventually used to produce an authorized Hebrew Bible text by the Masoretic scholars in the Middle Ages, composed of textual variations which are different from the original text of the Greek Septuagint.
1.) As I mentioned, the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the ancestor of the Masoretic text was already in existence by the 2nd century BC alongside the Hebrew textual traditions underlying the Septuagint and the Samaritan Torah, along possible other versions.
2.) The proselyte Aquila of Sinope made a GREEK translation in the 2nd century; so did Symmachus the Ebionite and Theodotion. (Note: the book of Daniel in Christian versions of the Septuagint today is actually that of Theodotion’s) And yes, they produced these fresh translations of the Hebrew Scriptures because of the perceived discrepancy between the Hebrew text that came in common use at the time and the Greek Septuagint. And to your credit, association of the Septuagint with a rival religion did factor into it in some way.
3.) For the record, the Septuagint which we have today is in fact, NOT the original Septuagint; cf. Origen’s Hexapla.

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/489/800pxtextsot.png
 
Patrick457 – you are exactly right about most of your points. However, the Jewish antipathy to the Septuagint is somewhat more complicated – it is the story of the complete dissolution (largely due to assimilation) of the Alexandrian Jewish community (which heavily used the Septuagint) and the survival of the Palestinian Jewish community (which had a natural antipathy to the Greek.)

The differences between the various principal Septuagint manuscripts that have survived (Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, and Alexandrinus) show that changes were actively being made to the text in the 4th and 5th centuries. Further, contemporary Jewish accounts of the textual oddities in the Septuagint text (e.g., in the Babylonian Talmud) usually don’t agree with the main texts that have survived, suggesting that the Septuagint text was very much in flux during this period.
 
Patrick457 – you are exactly right about most of your points. However, the Jewish antipathy to the Septuagint is somewhat more complicated – it is the story of the complete dissolution (largely due to assimilation) of the Alexandrian Jewish community (which heavily used the Septuagint) and the survival of the Palestinian Jewish community (which had a natural antipathy to the Greek.)

The differences between the various principal Septuagint manuscripts that have survived (Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, and Alexandrinus) show that changes were actively being made to the text in the 4th and 5th centuries. Further, contemporary Jewish accounts of the textual oddities in the Septuagint text (e.g., in the Babylonian Talmud) usually don’t agree with the main texts that have survived, suggesting that the Septuagint text was very much in flux during this period.
Thanks for the additional info! 👍
 
Why quibble over syntax and spellings when th LORD told you to love GOD with all your heart, mind , and spirit and to love your neighbor as yourself.
 
As I mentioned, the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the ancestor of the Masoretic text was already in existence by the 2nd century BC alongside the Hebrew textual traditions underlying the Septuagint and the Samaritan Torah, along possible other versions…Quote by Patrick…

One little detail my friend, BTW your info. was very informative!

The detail is this. How can one accept the theory of a Pre Masoretic tradition…when vowels weren’t added to the Hebrew…until about the 8th -9th century…up to middle ages???

The “texts” found with the dead sea scrolls…had no vowels added to them.

This was done by the Hebrew Scholars in century aforementioned…😃
 
One little detail my friend, BTW your info. was very informative!

The detail is this. How can one accept the theory of a Pre Masoretic tradition…when vowels weren’t added to the Hebrew…until about the 8th -9th century…up to middle ages???

The “texts” found with the dead sea scrolls…had no vowels added to them.

This was done by the Hebrew Scholars in century aforementioned…😃
Yes, vowel points were a later development in Hebrew. Good catch! 👍 But to answer your question, only two words: the consonants. There is little difference in the orthography between the MT as it is today and much of the DSS.
 
patrick you are very informative. I am on another forum and have been dealing with the blows of the reformers and the KJV onlyists’…

There is something someone brought up now…called the Peshitta…saying this Old Syriac writing actually predates possibly all OT writings…this is leading to arguments in something called Aramaic Primacy…

Have you heard of this before, I cannot find much in my agape bible study about this, and would appreciate any insight into this “Peshitta”…if you know…

Thanks ahead of time to OP for allowing me to use his thread for some info.
 
patrick you are very informative. I am on another forum and have been dealing with the blows of the reformers and the KJV onlyists’…

There is something someone brought up now…called the Peshitta…saying this Old Syriac writing actually predates possibly all OT writings…this is leading to arguments in something called Aramaic Primacy…

Have you heard of this before, I cannot find much in my agape bible study about this, and would appreciate any insight into this “Peshitta”…if you know…

Thanks ahead of time to OP for allowing me to use his thread for some info.
You’re welcome.

Now a quick introduction to the Peshitta: it is a translation of the Bible into Syriac, an Eastern Aramaic language. It had become the standard version of the Scriptures around the 5th century, and continues to do so for Christians who use Syriac as their liturgical language.

The so-called theory of Aramaic Primacy meanwhile posits that some or even all of the New Testament was originally written in Aramaic, in contrast to the dominant opinion today that they are originally written in Greek. Some versions of this theory would even propose that the text of the Peshitta NT is closest to or even the original one penned by the sacred authors.
 
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