Will there be a severe economic collapse in America?

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My grandfather lived through the Depression. Went broke during it, too. Was a farmer. Recovered by providing products to people with money instead of relying on commodity crops.

He said one has to remember that during the Depression, anywhere from 15-25% of the population was unemployed. That meant that anywhere from 75-85% of the population WAS employed. And that majority had money to spend. Some were better off during the Depression than they were before or after. They were more careful than before, but they still spent money. The whole economy just settled into a lower pattern, but went on much as before.

So, seems to me “collapse” is relative, but very unlikely to be complete, or even throw the majority into destitution. But it does seem caution in one’s present practices is advisable.
 
In “How Did We Get Into This Financial Mess?”, (White, L. H. (2008, November 18). How did we get into this financial mess? CATO Institute Briefing Papers, (110), 1-12.) Lawrence H. White makes a strong case, supported by many, that both the Fed’s monetary policy and the increasing political use of the Fed’s regulatory powers led directly to the recent “subprime mortgage crisis,” a.k.a. “mortgage meltdown.” The credit expansion policies of the Fed, combined with “mandates and subsidies to write riskier mortgages” were the primary culprits. The acquisitions allowed via deregulation actually kept the crisis from being even worse, and greed—described by White as a “constant”—“can’t explain why the number of financial crashes is higher than usual.”

During the 2001 recession the Fed began expanding the money supply by reducing the discount rate from 6.25%, down to a record-low 1% by mid-2003. The difference between the discount rate and what was recommended by the well-respected Taylor rule for a 2% inflation-rate (the usual Fed target) “was especially large—200 basis points or more—from mid-2003 to mid-2005.”

With the real rate being lower than inflation for two and a half years, “a borrower was not paying but rather gaining in proportion to what he borrowed.” The result was that from mid-2003 to mid-2007, “real estate loans at commercial banks were growing at 10-17 percent” as compared to a 5 to 7 percent growth in goods and services. Since the market value of real estate increases as interest rates decrease, home prices were on the rise.

In addition, as the discount rate went down, the rates on adjustable-rate mortgages became even lower relative to 30-year mortgages. The 30-year rate dropped from 6.97% in 2001 to 5.84% in 2004, while the rate for ARMs dropped from 5.84% to 3.90%, meaning ARMs were 1.13% cheaper in 2001, but 1.94% in 2004. Therefore, anyone buying a home saw it not just as a home, but as a great investment because of the steadily-increasing prices, and they could finance it at ever-lower rates with the (soon-to-be-proven dangerous for many) adjustable rate mortgage.

**The other major factor causing the mortgage crisis was the political influence on the Fed’s regulatory process, and political policies and pressures which pushed banks to write ever-riskier mortgages. In 2001 less than 10% of existing mortgages were subprime. Due to the rapidly increasing subprime market (34% of mortgages written in 2006 were subprime), the percentage of existing subprime mortgages more than doubled, to 23%. Further, the typical 20% down payment was giving way to a lower down payment. In 1934, when the Federal Housing Administration was founded, banks considered 20% low, but over the years began reducing their requirement to 20%. The FHA gradually reduced its down-payment requirement, reaching as low as 3% by 2004. **

The Community Reinvestment Act (CRA), which in 1977 merely imposed reporting requirements on banks to inform the government how much lending they did into the communities from which they received deposits, became much more of a pressure-tool used against banks. In 1989 the information became public, and in 1995 regulators could deny banks with low CRA-approval ratings the valuable ability to merge with other banks, or even open new branches.

With the ratings of these “private” lending institutions ratings now made public, **“[g]roups like ACORN (Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now) began actively pressuring banks to make loans under the threat that otherwise they would register complaints in order to deny the bank valuable approvals.” **

**Under the pressure, some banks “joined into partnerships with community groups to distribute millions in mortgage money to low-income borrowers previously considered non-creditworthy,” **while others boosted their rating by purchasing mortgage-backed securities, which were “packages of disproportionately nonprime loans certified as meeting CRA criteria and securitized by Freddie Mac.”

Starting in 1992, Congress and the Department of Housing and Urban Development began pressuring Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to put more emphasis on affordable housing for low- and moderate-income buyers. In fact, HUD gave them an explicit target in 1996—42% of their loans had to go to low-income borrowers, and that target increased to 52% by 2005. Furthermore, by 2005, 20% of all mortgages funded by Fannie and Freddie had to be to borrowers with less than 60% of the median income for their area. To fund all this new activity they had to borrow on a large scale from the financial markets, but the markets had no problem doing so because of the implicit backing of the U.S. Treasury.

Congress was warned repeatedly by many, including William Poole, president of the St. Louis Federal Reserve Bank., that the federal backing of Fannie and Freddie meant that the companies did not have to face the rigors of “market discipline.”

The Bush administration pushed for more oversight of Fannie and Freddie. Congress however, who by that time had many members who were too close to Fannie and Freddie, did nothing. Representative Barney Frank (D-MA), in fact, not only defended Fannie and Freddie, but said the push for affordable housing hadn’t gone far enough. He said Fannie and Freddie were financially sound, and even vehemently dismissed the notion that they had any federal backing, explicitly or implicitly.

White concludes that “[w]e are experiencing the unfortunate results of perverse government policies,” and points out that the distortions of the free market system induced “by the Federal Reserve, government backing of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, and the Federal Housing Authority” prevented market forces from providing a more “sustainable prosperity.”
 
I’m not saying this is the “big one”, and I doubt it is, but the market is down over 200 points today, and gold went below 1500 for a bit.

When the economy slows down, there’s no magic in either the market or in gold.
 
I’m not saying this is the “big one”, and I doubt it is, but the market is down over 200 points today, and gold went below 1500 for a bit.

When the economy slows down, there’s no magic in either the market or in gold.
I predict we continue on the road we are on. Not a massive collapse, but a steady decline that is seen as the “new normal”. Rome didn’t collapse in a day, it’s decline took more than a century - the US will take decades and turn into Argentina if we are lucky, Mexico if we aren’t.
 
To some extent, recessions/depressions are cyclical.

On the other hand, we can identify the economic factors that produce economic growth and made sure that those positive economic growth factors are encouraged.

For example, we need a Federal government spending program that does not exceed actual tax collections.

For example, we need government regulation that does not stifle innovation and productive investment.

For example, we need tax codes that are so incomprehensible that people just give up trying to figure out what their return on investment might be.

There are numerous proposals to reinstall the economic policies that will grow the economy, but the people who want to tinker from Washington and the state capitals just cannot resist more and more opportunities for micro-management.

So we need to vote these people out and shrink the size and influence of government.

Keep in mind, also, that the United States is a unique experiment in government … because each state is essentially a min-country … each state runs its own economy to a greater or lesser extent.

And some states are powerhouses of economic growth … and some are stagnating or even losing population, as people vote with their feet.

So, we can observe which states are doing well and which are not.

And we can emulate those that are experiencing positive growth and avoid the policies of states that are contracting.

The arguments are not one-dimensional; nevertheless … you can easily study lists of states and decide which ones would you rather work in?

taxes.about.com/od/statetaxes/a/tax-free-states.htm

And you can also look at lists of states from which people are moving out.

taxes.about.com/od/statetaxes/a/highest-state-income-tax-rates.htm

And states with high economic growth:

statisticbrain.com/state-economic-growth-statistics/
 
Every state has privately funded organizations dedicated to economic development.

For example, there is this group:

goldwaterinstitute.org/institute

You can read about what kinds of economic policies work and which ones don’t work.

Results matter.

Contact them and find one that focuses on the state where YOU live.

Read up on how your state and your region is doing … [or not].

Then contact your state legislators to recommend specific changes.

A couple of years ago, I got interested and showed up at a presentation by my state’s DEP. The presentation was pretty awful in terms of how they made policy … computer models out five years that could not be adjusted for reality; statements and assumptions that were just false … “bad science” … I became a little agitated and made some remarks to the guy sitting next to me. No idea who he was. He gave me his card and asked me to write a summary of my remarks and mail it to him … turns out he was the #2 guy in the State Senate. And … over time, there was ACTION taken to undo some of the damage owing to really poor policies.

People have commented that the bureaucrats merely do what bureaucrats do. And if they do not have direction, then they just go on their merry way. Their job is to write rules … and that’s what they do … and their job also is to stay in their cubicles … so they really have no idea of what is going on out in the hinterlands.

So, please read up!

Then, show up! Participate in the open houses and meetings.

You CAN make a positive difference!
 
I’m not saying this is the “big one”, and I doubt it is, but the market is down over 200 points today, and gold went below 1500 for a bit.

When the economy slows down, there’s no magic in either the market or in gold.
The “market” is not going to go to zero.

The “market” is merely an index of the current instant market value of the shares of stock in companies that make products, perform services, and provide the stuff that people need and want.

And the most highly touted index is only 30 companies … there are at least 8000 publicly traded companies out there.

[Nobody really knows; and you can get as many answers as you ask people … but: Worldwide, according to a source at Bloomberg LP (which provides news on publicly-trade companies to the financial sector), there are about 63000 publicly-traded companies.]

[There are roughly 15000 publicly traded companies in the US, of which about 1/3 are traded on exchanges and the other 2/3 traded in various over-the-counter markets. ]

The key thing for individual investors is to not get trapped by being 100% into the stock market at any time. By retaining a cash cushion, individuals can rebalance what they have … buy when the price goes down and sell when it goes up.

Takes some study.

Also, takes living a somewhat frugal lifestyle … put a chunk of your pay aside every paycheck. Even if it doesn’t earn any interest … just park it. And when some unbelievable bargains come up … then nibble at it.

There are plenty of mutual funds and ETF’s and discount brokerages out there with minimal fees.

You all know me … I have always lived frugally … junker jalopy cars, etc.

And have been continuously criticized for it. By mostly everyone, including parents and children, employers and coworkers, and even by members of the clergy! [A very frugal priest asked me if I would give him a ride someplace … “Wow, this is an old car!” ] Even by my insurance company: " … errr … ummm … is this your ‘station car’? " "no, actually, it’s the ‘good car’ ".

Nevertheless, it works.

[There is a guy I really do not like … mostly, but not not exclusively because of his position on abortion … and also because he really likes the high estate tax that penalizes people who have built productive businesses … so he can buy them for cheap. But his letters and annual reports are outstanding … go here and read:

http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/
 
Keep in mind, also, that the United States is a unique experiment in government … because each state is essentially a min-country … each state runs its own economy to a greater or lesser extent.

And some states are powerhouses of economic growth … and some are stagnating or even losing population, as people vote with their feet.

So, we can observe which states are doing well and which are not.

And we can emulate those that are experiencing positive growth and avoid the policies of states that are contracting.

The arguments are not one-dimensional; nevertheless … you can easily study lists of states and decide which ones would you rather work in?

taxes.about.com/od/statetaxes/a/tax-free-states.htm

And you can also look at lists of states from which people are moving out.

taxes.about.com/od/statetaxes/a/highest-state-income-tax-rates.htm

And states with high economic growth:

statisticbrain.com/state-economic-growth-statistics/
^ I think North Dakota’s economic growth (impressive with it being over 7%) is fueled by the oil boom there.

But thanks… I didn’t realize Wisconsin taxed people earning over $225,000 so steeply.

While $225,000 per annum is very good money and relatively few earn that a year, it’s not what it used to be, and you can steadily chop that down with to much taxation. I think taxes need to be eased up on anyone earning less than $2 million a year.

Why not just become a nurse instead of a doctor or surgeon if taxes and insurance are just going to eat you alive?

There’s no reason someone earning $225,000 a year should be paying the same tax rate as someone earning $14 million a year. Where’s the justice in that?
 
Apologies for going on and on.

The other day, an economist named Arthur Laffer was interviewed … he had moved from high-tax California to low-tax Tennessee. Pluses and minuses. But his tax bill was a lot lower.

Read up on this guy:

Coolidge [Hardcover]
Amity Shlaes (Author)
4.1 out of 5 stars See all reviews (122 customer reviews)

Do a google search for Coolidge.
 
My point is that there is no reason for passive acceptance.

It is possible [and important] to work for economic growth.
 
No one can tell the future. You’re asking for an economic “psychic” on a Catholic forum.
 
The Simple answer to this Question is… Yes.
Not because the president is good or bad, but rather everyone thinks they themselves know better… no one wants to agree to let one group take charge and control and let the Government of the day run the country as what they were elected to do…
To many cooks in the Kitchen …
 
The Simple answer to this Question is… Yes.
Not because the president is good or bad, but rather everyone thinks they themselves know better… no one wants to agree to let one group take charge and control and let the Government of the day run the country as what they were elected to do…
To many cooks in the Kitchen …
Contrary to popular opinion, the government does not run the country.

The idea that an institutionalized bureaucracy can run anything flies in the face of every actual experience.

Read “Fire in the Minds of Men” by Billington:

books.google.com/books/about/Fire_in_the_Minds_of_Men.html?id=saTynFUNPD8C

The government can micro-manage the economy and shut things down, but it can not run the country any more than the government can make a pencil.

Read here: “I, Pencil”

econlib.org/library/Essays/rdPncl1.html

After the Russian Revolution, a group of elitist radicals … militant atheist theorists … Communists … took over the government and attempted to run the country. Basically, they failed.

And, in failing, the Communists purposely killed tens of millions of people because the Communists thought that their own failures were due to they being “obstructed” by the people. So, they sent tens of millions of people to prison camps. And started massive wars.

Read the “Gulag Archipelago” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn

Read “The Black Book of Communism”.

barnesandnoble.com/w/black-book-of-communism-stephane-courtois/1101465223

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism
 
There might be. I hope not though. I think the United States still has a chance at a full recovery if the people start electing good men and women to the Congress.
 
The Simple answer to this Question is… Yes.
Not because the president is good or bad, but rather everyone thinks they themselves know better… no one wants to agree to let one group take charge and control and let the Government of the day run the country as what they were elected to do…
To many cooks in the Kitchen …
You need to read this; it is not that long, but is exceptionally well written.

churchnewspaper.com/?p=32684

excerpt:

**
William Lind of the Free Congress Foundation commented:
“The entertainment industry has wholly absorbed the ideology of cultural Marxism and preaches it endlessly not just in sermons but in parables: strong women beating up weak men; children wiser than their parents; corrupt clergymen thwarted by carping drifters; upper class blacks confronting the violence of lower class whites; manly homosexuals who lead normal lives. It is all fable, an inversion of reality, but the entertainment industry made it seem more real than the world that lies just beyond the front door.”

Roger Kimball, writing in his own journal New Criterion, says:
“The long march through the institutions signified in the words of Marcuse, ‘working against the established institutions while working in them’. By this means – by insinuation and infiltration rather than by confrontation – the counter-cultural dreams of radicals like Marcuse have triumphed.”

Traditional Christian culture is now, in Gertude Himmelfarb’s words, only a dissident culture. A civilisation may withstand any number and severity of attacks from external enemies, but once it has adopted as its own the ideas of its enemies, no power on earth can save it. We have not been defeated, we have surrendered willingly to our destruction.

The Secular Terrorist by Peter Mullen (RoperPenberthy £9.99)**
 
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