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Seamus_L
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What do Traditional Catholics think, or anyone for that matter ? And what would it require ?
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Emil3
Guest
In A word – NO!
The Orthodox will never accept ‘Papal Infallibility’ as we know it.
—will never accept it if we continue with a debasing of the Holy Liturgy as seen in the Novus Ordo and it’s weird variants as practiced in many parishes.
—will never accept it because the ‘Greek-Influenced’ East will never ‘submit’ to the Roman West. -(A problem with it’s distinct roots back to the 4th Century)–this is an issue within which the historical/cultural/ethnic factors and their importance are not
frequently examined in any great detail.
The Orthodox will never accept ‘Papal Infallibility’ as we know it.
—will never accept it if we continue with a debasing of the Holy Liturgy as seen in the Novus Ordo and it’s weird variants as practiced in many parishes.
—will never accept it because the ‘Greek-Influenced’ East will never ‘submit’ to the Roman West. -(A problem with it’s distinct roots back to the 4th Century)–this is an issue within which the historical/cultural/ethnic factors and their importance are not
frequently examined in any great detail.
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Spirithound
Guest
The Catholic Church does include 22 Eastern Churches…
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Emil3
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THANKS—I did know that but it is not a parallel to the point I raise which requires alot of explanation and historical study. The ORTHODOX situation is quite different; if one were to take your ‘implication’ to it’s logical end-point,
we should easily get all the Orthodox within our fold in a year or two. Sadly, the reverse is happening, many Eastern Catholics–including whole parishes–are tending to re-unite with their Orthodox bretheren. Tell you what, take an Orthodox who is considering the possibility of converting to one of our more ‘LIBERAL’ interpretations of the NO–especially as we have here in the USA; maybe I will visit & join in with my SAX------WATCH WHAT HIS/HER DECISION WOULD BE!
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Seamus_L
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Among some Catholics, particularly Eastern Catholics I’ve encountered online, there seems to be this belief that we are getting closer to reunion, and that there is little difference between Catholics and Orthodox. Sadly many of these people also favor rejecting the doctrine of Papal Infallibility on the basis that it only applies to the Latin Church.
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bpbasilphx
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The Chalcedonian Patriarch of Antioch (before the division into Antiochian Orthodox and Melkite) had for centuries tried to bring about reconciliation between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.
If people would speak of “reconciliation” rather than the “submission” of one Church to the other, we may get better results.
If people would speak of “reconciliation” rather than the “submission” of one Church to the other, we may get better results.
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PaulAndrew83
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Can one see the Orthodox accepting Trent, Vatican 1 and the other ecumenical councils as ecumenical councils?
If the Catholic Church headed by Rome is the true universal Church founded by Jesus way back then, how can anybody think that the Catholic Church can dilute her doctrine or accept a reversion of ecumenical councils?
If however it is the Orthodox in the right in this matter how can one expect the Orthodox to change?
Something on one of the sides has to give, the other must remain firm. So really it is about submission to the Faith expounded by Rome or of the Orthodox. If both bend, well we may as well be anglican.
Paul
If the Catholic Church headed by Rome is the true universal Church founded by Jesus way back then, how can anybody think that the Catholic Church can dilute her doctrine or accept a reversion of ecumenical councils?
If however it is the Orthodox in the right in this matter how can one expect the Orthodox to change?
Something on one of the sides has to give, the other must remain firm. So really it is about submission to the Faith expounded by Rome or of the Orthodox. If both bend, well we may as well be anglican.
Paul
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PrayForMeStJude
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I don’t think they would really have to accept them as “ecumenical councils.” Since they weren’t represented, the council didn’t truly encompass the whole Church. But they would have to accept the teachings.
In any case, Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople is rather pro-Roman. The major road black to reunion in the Orthodox world, at least recently, was Patriarch Alexei of Moscow. Now that he has died, there may be some political change in Moscow. At least one of the rumored front-runners for election of Patriarch is a bit more pro-Roman (or maybe its better to say less anti-Roman).
So i think we should hold off on speculation about reunification until we see who is elected Patriarch of Moscow, since he is sort of de facto leader of the Orthodox world.
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Seamus_L
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Submission can be interpreted rather harshly at times. We in the Roman Catholic Church however, never regard it that way. Being under the Pope’s authority would not be some form of tyranny.
From a Traditional Catholic viewpoint, the suggestion of One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, where the Pope is infallible in some parts and not infallible in others, is unrealistic, just as I'm sure it would be to devout Orthodox believers.
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chrisb
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In a word… NO.
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Franze
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I Hope so but I doubt it.
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mardukm
Guest
It goes both ways. A large portion of the ACOE just came into Catholic communion. A few years ago, a large number of Macedonian Orthodox applied for communion with Rome, but were denied. Many individuals (even priests), tired of waiting for a reunion, go with their conscience and join the Catholic communion on their own (like me). Others join convinced of the Catholic truth (especially in moral teaching); others join because they no longer accept the rationale behind the divisive rhetoric of Orthodox polemics (i.e., Catholics and Orthodox are more similar than different).
There’s a very low possibility of that actually happening. EO and OO who translate to Catholicism do so to their analogous Eastern/Oriental Catholic counterpart.
With God all things are possible. There will always be hardliners in each Church. Sometimes they are more vocal than those who desire unity. But don’t lose hope. God’s will is for unity to occur. Already, there is limited communion between several OO Churches and the Catholic Churches. Even the Polish National Catholic Church (formerly Old Catholic communion) has taken the initiative in efforts for communion with Rome. Large numbers of Anglicans, likewise. The Holy Spirit is at work throughout the world, not just in the U.S.
Blessings,
Marduk
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mardukm
Guest
I just wanted to say I was recently on an Orthodox website and read a thread regarding the Immaculate Conception.
The Orthodox there believe that the Catholic Church teaches that we inherit the guilt of Adam’s own sin. One EO actually came on there to defend the ACTUAL Catholic teaching on the matter and no one would listen to him!
The real answer to the question is this:
As long as Orthodox keep spouting off and believing in their MISconceptions and caricatures about the Catholic Church and her teachings, there will be no reunion. But for those Orthodox who truly understand what the Catholic Church teaches, there is indeed a great hope for reunion.
Blessings,
Marduk
The Orthodox there believe that the Catholic Church teaches that we inherit the guilt of Adam’s own sin. One EO actually came on there to defend the ACTUAL Catholic teaching on the matter and no one would listen to him!
The real answer to the question is this:
As long as Orthodox keep spouting off and believing in their MISconceptions and caricatures about the Catholic Church and her teachings, there will be no reunion. But for those Orthodox who truly understand what the Catholic Church teaches, there is indeed a great hope for reunion.
Blessings,
Marduk
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bpbasilphx
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As long as Orthodox keep spouting off and believing in their MISconceptions and caricatures about the Catholic Church and her teachings, there will be no reunion.
Let’s not forget, there are misconceptions about Orthodoxy on the other side of the Tiber as well.
Let’s not forget, there are misconceptions about Orthodoxy on the other side of the Tiber as well.
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mystified
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It is my prayer…
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Dauphin
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Men certainly won’t be able to achieve such a thing. If it happens, which I don’t expect within my lifetime, it will be the work of the Holy Ghost.
It will involve, of course, the full submission of the Orthodox to all Catholic doctrine defined since the Great Schism. Otherwise, it would be a false unity, with differences merely set aside or cloaked in ambiguous terms.
It will involve, of course, the full submission of the Orthodox to all Catholic doctrine defined since the Great Schism. Otherwise, it would be a false unity, with differences merely set aside or cloaked in ambiguous terms.
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mardukm
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m134e5
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From what I understand, many protestant fundamentalists convert to Eastern Orthodoxy. In their studies, they come to realize that the Church that Jesus founded was meant to be liturgy-based, and that it would have apostolic succession. They may have, perhaps, investigated the Catholic Church- but were unable to come to terms with the Papacy. Therefore, you get anti-Catholic fundamentalists who convert to Orthodoxy- and are as anti-Catholic as they ever were. They come into communities that may be friendly (or, at worst, a bit distant) towards Catholics- and they fan the flames- once again dragging up old disagreements and injuries, and egging the people on when they get angry. Some of the most hateful, anti-Catholic comments I have ever read have come from people claiming to be Orthodox. I do not think this has anything to do with the spirituality or liturgy of the Eastern Churches- I believe it is the influence that these fundamentalists-turned-Orthodox have had on them (if they are not those fundamentalists-turned-Orthodox themselves).
For that reason, I do not see reunion with the Orthodox for a very long time- at least not on the local level.
For that reason, I do not see reunion with the Orthodox for a very long time- at least not on the local level.
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PrayForMeStJude
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Well, the great thing is, the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches agree on doctrine. Most of us just don’t know we do yet.
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Cluny
Guest
It will involve, of course, the full submission of the Orthodox to all Catholic doctrine defined since the Great Schism. Otherwise, it would be a false unity, with differences merely set aside or cloaked in ambiguous terms.
And what if someone were to say “It will involve the full submission of the Papists to all Orthodox doctrine and repudiation of novelties since the West fell away from Orthodox unity”? Wouldn’t you find that insulting and degrading?
I agree with bpbasilphx. Speaking about “submission” and such ideas will not accomplish much.
Reconciliation, seeking mutual forgiveness, and granting mutual forgiveness will accomplish much more.
And what if someone were to say “It will involve the full submission of the Papists to all Orthodox doctrine and repudiation of novelties since the West fell away from Orthodox unity”? Wouldn’t you find that insulting and degrading?
I agree with bpbasilphx. Speaking about “submission” and such ideas will not accomplish much.
Reconciliation, seeking mutual forgiveness, and granting mutual forgiveness will accomplish much more.
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