Will this atheist go to hell?

[Sarpedon]

Perhaps, but that’s what faith would give them - folks are putting the cart before the horse in this scenerio seems to me. Faith often comes before understanding, that faith then gives and strengthens the understanding, which further strengthens the faith - and so on and so on.

Exactly. Not everyone realizes this. An athiest can have the incorrect notion that he must understand all before having faith, which can hinder his ability to make the choice he so desperately wants to make.

Besides, I’m sure there are a multitude of reasons why an athiest won’t accept the free gift of faith when it is presented to them - I’m just not sure what these reasons have to do with the question of salvation.

Intent determines salvation to a large degree. Some of these reasons may not contain the intent of choosing against God.

That’s the way alot of folks describe it nowadays, but in actuality, it throws 2000 years of constant Christian understanding on it’s head. It amounts to saying, “outside the Church there is no Salvation unless you don’t believe that outside the Church there is no salvation”…it makes truth relative - and basically meaningless.

I don’t completely understand what your saying, but I am in no way saying truth is relative. The possibility of those outside the visible church being unknowing members is an objective truth.

Well I’d say that of course knowing and believing the truth of the Catholic faith and rejecting it leads to damnation - but then you’d have to ask who rejects it who knows it to be true? That number has to be small indeed - those few entirely warped souls who directly and intently worship Satan and want him to “win” and have deceived themselves into believing this is possible.

Worshipping Satan wouldn’t be necessary. You could watch bunny-eared videos instead.

Far greater in number are those who have had the faith at one time and reject it for the pleasures or the “lies” of the world (such as our “Jane”), those folks who start buying into - little by little perhaps - the lies and deceipts of the evil one until they make a “shipwreck of their faith”, and also those , or those who could have known and accepted the free gift but chose not to.

This could easily be true, in terms of statistics.

For example, a classic example, look at this…Acts 17:30-34

And God indeed having winked at the times of this ignorance, now declareth unto men, that all should every where do penance. Because he hath appointed a day wherein he will judge the world in equity, by the man whom he hath appointed; giving faith to all, by raising him up from the dead. And when they had heard of the resurrection of the dead, some indeed mocked, but others said: We will hear thee again concerning this matter. So Paul went out from among them. But certain men adhering to him, did believe…
There is no indication whatsoever that those who rejected Paul’s preaching of the Gospel accepted it as true and then rejected it - they rejected it plain and simple…and will be judged accordingly.

Of course, but I think some atheists believe in atheism without truly rejecting God, as I explained in my above post.

Agreed, but in the given scenerio, the person’s intellect and will did not cooperate with divine grace in the first place.

I thought the original example was slightly ambigous, so I refined her scenario in my above post. In mine, Jane only refused to “cooperate” because she mistakenly thought she could not, not because she rejected God.

Now if you say that the will responded but that the intellect didn’t assent I’d have to disagree because the will trumps intellect - for example, this person knows the claims of the faith, they studied it, the will wants to believe and so even without fully comprehending everything, the person would still have faith by responding to that grace of God that moved the will. It’s the old "Lord I believe, help my unbelief" thing.

Exactly. Not everyone realizes this, so I think God will take their knowledge into account.

But in the given scenerio, there is no indication that this rudementary belief was there at all - in fact the given scenerio made it an explicit point to say the person chose to become athiest and remained athiest to the day of death with no last minute conversions.

I refined the example to some degree, but I was also talking in a more general sense about “atheists” who die “atheists” and whether their atheism necessarily includes a rejection of God.

Yes indeed - but by that very act he/she ceases to be an athiest.

Yes- this is why we should try to correct any misunderstanding about it.

Ummmm - perhaps (let me think about that one) if the person is invincibly and inculpably ignorant of the “nature of belief”, but the given scenerio doesn’t allow for it, for this person has studied the faith and thus doesn’t have the excuse of not knowing the true “nature of belief.”

She may have been decieved by false arguments that she found herself unable to refute with her personal ability to reason. This is where the will comes into play.

 

[DustinsDad]

If you were born into an Muslim home, you would be saying the exact same thing about the truth of Islam.

Only if I either reject God’s grace which offers the free gift of Salvation in Jesus Christ or am invincibly and inculpably ignorant of that Truth.

The fact that Muslim’s haven’t bought into moral relativity is to their credit - they at least have grasped the reality that there can only be one truth. And that is their bridge to the One True Church - a truth they have not as yet rejected…despite the pressures of modern man.

DustinsDad

 

[Exalt]

Only if I either reject God’s grace which offers the free gift of Salvation in Jesus Christ or am invincibly and inculpably ignorant of that Truth.

The fact that Muslim’s haven’t bought into moral relativity is to their credit - they at least have grasped the reality that there can only be one truth. And that is their bridge to the One True Church - a truth they have not as yet rejected…despite the pressures of modern man.

DustinsDad

Heh. I just find it kinda funny that there are some Catholics out there who say “It’s one thing to ask questions of your faith and earnestly seek an answer from the Church, it’s another thing to question the faith so as to put God to the test.” And “I’d also say that the age old advice and teaching of the Church to stay away from false religions and teachings still holds today.”

It’s pretty simple. There’s a plurality of religions out there. If one of them is right, the others have to be wrong, and it’s possible that they’re *all *wrong. So you *have *to test them. Otherwise, you might as well put them all in a hat and ask God or Allah or Jupiter or whatever to guide you to the right answer and just believe in whatever religion you pull out of the hat.

It’s a coin toss that made you Catholic, not reason or faith.

 

[DustinsDad]

Heh. I just find it kinda funny that there are some Catholics out there who say “It’s one thing to ask questions of your faith and earnestly seek an answer from the Church, it’s another thing to question the faith so as to put God to the test.” And “I’d also say that the age old advice and teaching of the Church to stay away from false religions and teachings still holds today.”

Your amusement is understandable, being an athiest such things must seem as folly to you. It is also to be pitied.

It’s pretty simple. There’s a plurality of religions out there. If one of them is right, the others have to be wrong,

Exactly. And there is a reason for the plurality of religions - but perhaps that’s for another thread.

and it’s possible that they’re *all *wrong.

Without accepting the free gift of faith, this is certainly the perspective one might sadly come to. But then you have embraced agnosticism (which admits it cannot prove or disprove God), which is a sort of psuedo-religoun and a philosophical belief system unto itself that one would be embracing in replacement of Truth.

You see, there is no neutral corner you can sit in and remove yourself from this question - one doesn’t live in a spiritual vacuum - it is either yay or nay.

So you *have *to test them.

*Until *you have been presented with the Truth and receive the free gift of faith, sure - by all means, test away. And that is where the Catholic Church stands so far above and beyond all the false religions. The theolgoical and philosophical soundness of the Church helps point one doing such investigations in the right direction. But alas, you can’t get there by reason alone - it does take something Supernatural to seal the deal so to speak - that’s why when it’s all said and done, faith is indeed a totally free and unmerited gift of God.

But again, once Truth has been presented to you and offered to you, it would not make logical sense to seek it somewhere else. And since the Catholic faith is true - it is the one true religion and the one true Church established by Jesus Christ Himself - it would be a sin against God to seek “some other truth” apart from Him.

That is not to say that once solid in the faith one could study other religions - mainly to highlight the errors of their belief and philosopical systems and use said errors to help and invite other souls move to the Truth - to the Holy Catholic Church - for their eternal salvation.

Otherwise, you might as well put them all in a hat and ask God or Allah or Jupiter or whatever to guide you to the right answer and just believe in whatever religion you pull out of the hat.

You are correct in the sense that until one has the Truth, one does have a moral obligation and duty to seek it out and find it. Once one has the truth, the obligation is to live it out - not look for another one.

It’s a coin toss that made you Catholic, not reason or faith.

So you say.

DustinsDad

 

[BoolYah]

Jesus said “I have come to testify to the truth”. The truth is that God is real and he exists. Whether or not you choose to believe in God does not change that truth. We can argue all day about whether God is real or not but what is comes down to is do you believe or not? If you believe in God then he reveals himself to you and and he becomes real.

If a person was to step out of a 10 story window they would fall to the ground because gravity exists. They would not float in thin air simply because they refuse to believe in gravity. In a similar way everyone who lives and dies will face eternal judgement whether or not they choose to believe in God and the afterlife.

 

[Ion]

Two traits : love God(as you know him) and love your neighbour.
Nonbelievers do not go to heaven no matter how much they love their neighbour.
It is possible for a Hindu to be saved.
We christians, have big trouble with this law, and we have the benefit of graces, so how much harder is for a Hindu to be saved?

 

[Michael_Francis]

Sticky: Temporary Ban on Evolution/Atheism Threads
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)