Will voting for Liberals lower poverty, unemployment and the deficit?

[LisaA]

I find it odd that laissez-faire capitalism and its social darwinism is considered compatible with Christianity.

And you believe this because? I don’t think you will find any Christian leader that believes in laissez-faire capitalism (which doesn’t exist in American fwiw), survival of the fittest, or might makes right. Maybe you can enlighten me.

BTW I"m a “lapsed” Unitarian who became a Catholic
Lisa

 

[Zosimus41]

Doesn’t the military have anything to do with it?

And what about the space program which eventually led to the present communication devices we have today? Do you think Bank of America, even with its monopolistic ability to get printed money from the Fed, not Congress, would have invested in any projects which competed with the Russians back in the 60’s? I don’t.

Doesn’t the military have anything to do with it? Yes… we wouldnt having this conversation other wise…Wait a minute it was Al Gore not the military who invented the internet

Would bank of America invest money for projects back in the 60s to compete with Russia?Probably not However its their “choice” Point is you dont have a choice in paying your taxes to fund programs like the new health care program (unless you want to go to prison)

If your business was run like the government how long do you think it would last?

Is the GNP percentage from government run programs out weigh the countries debt? Uh no.

Private industry gives to economy and causes economic growth.Big Government takes money.

National average taxes, state & federal: 48.9 cents per gallon of gas. If the government wants to help why dont they just take off gas tax? 291 sounds good to me (rhetorical)

I like to make my own choices. Im NO statists.

“The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples’ money.”
Margaret Thatcher

“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.”
Winston Churchill

“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it was once like in the United States where men were free."
Ronald Wilson Reagan

I take it your not a big Mark Lavin fan?

 

[wittgenstein]

Would Jesus be a Capitalist?

 

[Zosimus41]

Would Jesus be a Capitalist?

There is a huge diference between Jesus and us…He is God. Who is like God?

God nor the church is a democracy however God the church isnt seeking to ruin small business and private enterprise.

Ask any intellegent small business owner how they like whats going on in our government today.

Next year when you get little to no money back in your tax retun or having to pay double what you have been paying…Ask me again would Jesus be a capitalist? I believe youll have your answers when you have to start paying for it.

Given the histories of dictators including modern my life time.Francisco Macias Nguema,Yahya Jammeh,Saparmurat Niyazov,Kim Jong-Il etc

I guarantee you would NOT want to be a citizen in any of those countries.

 

[wittgenstein]

Are the values of laissez-faire capitalism and its social darwinism compatable with Christianity? Are you saying that one can follow the principles of personal profit, love of earthly riches and still call oneself a Christian?

 

[Zosimus41]

Are the values of laissez-faire capitalism and its social darwinism compatable with Christianity? Are you saying that one can follow the principles of personal profit, love of earthly riches and still call oneself a Christian?

I see were you are going with this loaded question.

Perhaps you should pray to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.Maybe then youll have your answer.

Mod time to lock up this thread

 

[LisaA]

Are the values of laissez-faire capitalism and its social darwinism compatable with Christianity? Are you saying that one can follow the principles of personal profit, love of earthly riches and still call oneself a Christian?

You just keep asking the same question but ignoring the responses. I suspect you aren’t really interested in answers, just seeing what reaction you generate.

The question is specious because it is based on a fallacy. Laissez-faire capitalism does not exist in anything but theory. Social darwinism is yet another theory marinated in the brew of universities but in short supply in real life. Look for survival of the fittest in an anthill but not on the streets of America.

There is nothing un Christian about making profit or a love of earthly riches. It’s all about where these issues factor into your life. Are they above love of God or are they a “minor” love? Also, define which form of “love” you mean. English is not very precise…one may love pizza, Justin Bieber, money, European films and still be a good Christian because the love reserved for God is far different than that with respect to music or food.

How about you answer another question. As a Unitarian do you think you are a Christian?
Since you have chosen Unitarianism, have you rejected Christianity’s teachings on Jesus?

Lisa

 

[Zosimus41]

You just keep asking the same question but ignoring the responses. I suspect you aren’t really interested in answers, just seeing what reaction you generate.

The question is specious because it is based on a fallacy. Laissez-faire capitalism does not exist in anything but theory. Social darwinism is yet another theory marinated in the brew of universities but in short supply in real life. Look for survival of the fittest in an anthill but not on the streets of America.

There is nothing un Christian about making profit or a love of earthly riches. It’s all about where these issues factor into your life. Are they above love of God or are they a “minor” love? Also, define which form of “love” you mean. English is not very precise…one may love pizza, Justin Bieber, money, European films and still be a good Christian because the love reserved for God is far different than that with respect to music or food.

How about you answer another question. As a Unitarian do you think you are a Christian?
Since you have chosen Unitarianism, have you rejected Christianity’s teachings on Jesus?

Lisa

Lisa

Remind me never to get in a debate with you!

 

[LisaA]

Lisa

Remind me never to get in a debate with you!

Based on your posts, we wouldn’t be in a debate, we’d be in agreement enjoy your posts and really like your signature lines and graphics.

Lisa

 

[Darryl1958]

Would Jesus be a Capitalist?

Would Jesus be a Scientist or a Sociologist or an American Patriot, a Keynsian, Creationist or a Dawinist, or a Libertarian maybe?

There is something ironic and even quaint in Doctor Schwiezzer’s insight that our search for Jesus invariably leads us to create him in our own image.

It is never a good thing though to raise any of our ‘isms’ to the state of Divine Immortality. None of the isms created to date have been a panacea. Some however, have produced better fruits than others. That is what I understand the intent of this thread to be about, allowing people to defend their own ‘isms’ on their own merits.

Love of the poor, one might hope, involves finding a system that allows more and more people to rise beyond the indignities of absolute poverty. If instead what the policies involve is politicizing an permanent underclass of poor into a voting machine, this is not the kind of fruit that is being promised.

 

[TimothyIgnatius]

You like so many well intentioned but mistaken liberals mistake “universal insurance cards” or a “one payer system” for universal health CARE. Giving someone an insurance card does not translate into getting them health care. Forcing them to buy insurance also does not get them health care. Further remember the Government Golden Rule: He who pays the gold makes the rule. Thus instead of having doctors, nurses and healthcare facilities decide on your best treatment options, the government will dictate what you can and can’t receive. They make the payment after all!

What has happened with respect to Obamacare is that costs have increased, access has decreased, the HHS has mandated that all employers MUST provide lifestyle and recreational drugs but not that they must provide life saving drugs. Obamacare demands a compromise of conscious and a violation of the Constitution.

Does demanding that employers provide all employees with free birth control, abortion inducing drugs, or sterilization services sound like concern for the poor? Is pregnancy a disease? Questions neither asked nor answered when the rules were made.

What health issues do the poor often encounter? Many are obese, diabetic, and have chronic heart and/or lung disease from smoking. How does demanding birth control pills be passed out for free help these people?

It’s very clear that the Obama’ administration’s objectives are anything but actually helping the poor access better medical care. It is all about control, not care.

In America, people have access to health care, whether or not they can pay for it. The real issue with “universal health care” is that its advocates want someone else to pay for THEIR medical care, not that there are people dying in the streets because there were locks on the hospital door.

As to the Republican/Democrat debate…no contest. One party has evil emblazoned in its platform. Its heroes are abortion providers. Does that mean a Catholic cannot vote for an actual pro-life Democrat? No. Just as a Catholic can’t vote for a pro-abortion Republican. It’s not the party that determines but it’s clear that the Democrat party is the party of anti-life causes; abortion, contraception, and sterilization.

So as a Catholic you try to claim moral equivalence because some Republicans are opposed to higher taxes? Really?

Lisa

Taxes have nothing to do with it. Republicans are manipulating the devoutly religious for their votes. The assertion that voting Republican is more moral than voting Democrat is completely asinine. They are BOTH evil. They are two heads of the same seven headed dragon. And anyone who believes a predominantly conservative administration would find a way to overturn Roe v Wade is simply delusional. We have had multiple conservative-dominant administrations since then, and the decision remains. And when it comes to tax-payer dollars, why does nobody bat an eyelash when we pour the public’s money into funding wars, or when we bail out corporations that are plainly selfish and mismanaged, or when we incarcerate non-violent medical patients (ie drug addicts), or when public funds end up in the pockets of politicians?

The Republican party is a warring, selfish group. Reagan’s foreign policy towards South America included GENOCIDE. Osama bin Laden was a trained CIA operative; anyone who took the time to read the 9/11 commission report would discover that it quite plainly states that the attacks were an unintended consequence of bad foreign policy, a concept known as “blowback.” Incase you weren’t aware, he was trained and armed by then head of CIA George H.W. Bush. These are irrefutable facts that anyone can look up and discover, using the library of Congress as a resource. It seems to me that the Democrats are not the only “party of death.”

I bid someone prove me wrong in the statement that prior to the Roe v Wade decision, the Church was generally more left-leaning when it came to political issues.

If one is truly to vote with their conscience, then one must vote for another candidate. The assertion that doing such would be a “wasted vote” is incredibly dangerous…talk about keeping the status quo… Ask yourself, who is truly benefitting? It is not a choice between evil and more evil; there are plenty of other parties. And as the single biggest religious denomination in the country, Catholics would have the power to bring another party to prominence. Don’t be fooled; both of the major parties are morally unacceptable.

I have ZERO interest in agenda-driven information; when it comes to matters of men, I only deal in objective empirical data. When it comes to matters of faith, I trust in God.

 

[TimothyIgnatius]

There is nothing un Christian about making profit or a love of earthly riches. It’s all about where these issues factor into your life. Are they above love of God or are they a “minor” love? Also, define which form of “love” you mean. English is not very precise…one may love pizza, Justin Bieber, money, European films and still be a good Christian because the love reserved for God is far different than that with respect to music or food.

Unless you can provide me with a dogma or doctrine that supports the claim you made here, you are unequivocally erroneous…

 

[Darryl1958]

Rather, what needs to be shown is Christian dogma that states that profit is unlawful or immoral, or that we are not to appreciate the good things in this life that God provides us with.

If there is no “thou shalt not”, then the freedom that Paul speaks of tells us “thou mayest”.

An attitude of gratitude would entail that one actually enjoys what one expresses gratitude to God for, one might suppose.

 

[LisaA]

Taxes have nothing to do with it. Republicans are manipulating the devoutly religious for their votes. The assertion that voting Republican is more moral than voting Democrat is completely asinine. They are BOTH evil. They are two heads of the same seven headed dragon. And anyone who believes a predominantly conservative administration would find a way to overturn Roe v Wade is simply delusional. We have had multiple conservative-dominant administrations since then, and the decision remains. And when it comes to tax-payer dollars, why does nobody bat an eyelash when we pour the public’s money into funding wars, or when we bail out corporations that are plainly selfish and mismanaged, or when we incarcerate non-violent medical patients (ie drug addicts), or when public funds end up in the pockets of politicians?

The Republican party is a warring, selfish group. Reagan’s foreign policy towards South America included GENOCIDE. Osama bin Laden was a trained CIA operative; anyone who took the time to read the 9/11 commission report would discover that it quite plainly states that the attacks were an unintended consequence of bad foreign policy, a concept known as “blowback.” Incase you weren’t aware, he was trained and armed by then head of CIA George H.W. Bush. These are irrefutable facts that anyone can look up and discover, using the library of Congress as a resource. It seems to me that the Democrats are not the only “party of death.”

I bid someone prove me wrong in the statement that prior to the Roe v Wade decision, the Church was generally more left-leaning when it came to political issues.

If one is truly to vote with their conscience, then one must vote for another candidate. The assertion that doing such would be a “wasted vote” is incredibly dangerous…talk about keeping the status quo… Ask yourself, who is truly benefitting? It is not a choice between evil and more evil; there are plenty of other parties. And as the single biggest religious denomination in the country, Catholics would have the power to bring another party to prominence. Don’t be fooled; both of the major parties are morally unacceptable.

I have ZERO interest in agenda-driven information; when it comes to matters of men, I only deal in objective empirical data. When it comes to matters of faith, I trust in God.

You may think you deal with empirical data but you haven’t provided any, just a lot of overblown and rather unsubstantiated opinions. Individuals might be evil but to claim both Democrat and Republican parties are evil is simply the illusion your opinions are fact. Parties are not moral or amoral. Certain platforms or statements may promote evil actions but you still need to look at the individual candidate and his or her record.

Most of your claims have been dealt with repeatedly. I see you are a new member. You might find some responses on past threads enlightening.

 

[LisaA]

Unless you can provide me with a dogma or doctrine that supports the claim you made here, you are unequivocally erroneous…

You need to not take one sentence out of context before responding. Read on and see if you have a better understanding.

Lisa

 

[estesbob]

Unless you can provide me with a dogma or doctrine that supports the claim you made here, you are unequivocally erroneous…

If nobody makes a profit whos going to pay for the welfare state?

 

[TimothyIgnatius]

You may think you deal with empirical data but you haven’t provided any, just a lot of overblown and rather unsubstantiated opinions. Individuals might be evil but to claim both Democrat and Republican parties are evil is simply the illusion your opinions are fact. Parties are not moral or amoral. Certain platforms or statements may promote evil actions but you still need to look at the individual candidate and his or her record.

Most of your claims have been dealt with repeatedly. I see you are a new member. You might find some responses on past threads enlightening.

Some data to support my claims

9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf (in regards to my assertion that the attacks were the result of bad foreign policy, also known as “blowback”)

consortiumnews.com/2012/01/23/reagans-hand-in-guatemalas-genocide/ (In regards to the Reagan administrations hand in genocide)

www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB32/vol2.html (In regards to the Reagan administrations hand in genocide; these are the official government documents that the author of the above article used as a resource when writing.)

Also, I read your entire post and it only perplexed me further.

 

[TimothyIgnatius]

If nobody makes a profit whos going to pay for the welfare state?

She didn’t only assert that turning a profit is morally acceptable but also that LOVE of profits and earthly riches is morally acceptable, which I find hard to understand. Enjoying God’s gifts is not synonymous with being selfish and wealthy; if you turn a large profit, it should compel you to do good with it, not dedicate it entirely to themselves. Love of profit seems pretty counterintuitive to the selfless lives I thought Christians were called too…

 

[TimothyIgnatius]

And because I know nobody is going to sit and read the 9/11 commission report in its entirety…

"The 9/11 Commission Report Confirms that our presence in the Middle East, Bombing Iraq for 10 years and sanctions killing thousands pissed off the terrorists and is listed as a motivation for the attacks and hatred of us.

Quote is from the bottom of page 48 to the top paragraph on page 49. The section is 2.2 Bin Laden’s appeal in the Islamic World.

“He (Bin Laden) inveighed against the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, the home of Islam’s holiest sites. He spoke of the suffering of the Iraqi people as a result of sanctions imposed after the Gulf War, and he protested U.S. support of Israel.”

Bin Laden is quoted in the last paragraph on page 51 in the 9/11 Commission Report as saying the U.S. should “abandon the Middle East.”

Chapter 2 in the 9/11 Commission Report is a good “Blow Back” chapter."

 

[TimothyIgnatius]

Here’s a quote from Pope Benedict’s book, Without Roots.

“In many respects, democratic socialism was and is close to Catholic social doctrine, and has in any case made a remarkable contribution to the formation of a social consciousness.”

He also denounced the “the deplorable social plague of usury.”

When he was still a cardinal, he said “The concept of ‘preventive war’ does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church” and that the Iraq war was not morally justified.

But you’re right, we should all vote for Republicans.