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Mirdath
Guest
It does, usually… Look at the bishops’ condemnation of the war in Iraq. That doesn’t make all the soldiers fighting evil; they are commanded to. The action of going to war is what I object to.
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nby
Guest
We’re finite according to whom?
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LilyM
Guest
Something wrong with your reading Mirdath? Context, context, context.
And what bishop EVER spoke out against the Crusades? As I recall it was an impassioned speech of Pope Urban that launched the First Crusade, and St Bernard of Clairvaux certainly spoke in support of them. Certainly many Catholics have spoken out against excesses and breaches of human rights in wartime. Note that they were protesting excesses. Not war in general.
Again it’s your own private interpretation that ‘excess’ in warfare includes any hint pre-emption or aggression or anything other than critical self-defence. Is it the definitive interpretation of the Catholic Church though? Show me where it has been said that pre-emptive measures are inevitably or usually sinful?
Possibly ‘excess’ doesn’t even include agression at all levels. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for example, were certainly offensive rather than defensive. But were they universally or even much condemned by the Church? Show me that it was.
Another factor to ponder - this one from the Gospels. John the Baptist was preaching to soldiers. Roman soldiers. Aggressively occupying a country Rome had no natural right to be in. They ask him ‘what must we do to be saved?’.
What was his answer - ‘conscientiously object’? ‘leave the country and go home’? ‘Tell your leaders in Rome that they’re wrongfully occupying this country’? None of these. It was simply ‘no intimidation or extortion’. Not even ‘no fighting’. Not the ***slightest ***hint that the Romans weren’t absolutely a-OK to be in Israel.
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arover2
Guest
Just a reply to the discussion here. Has anyone seen the new video game that the “Left Behind” series of books has produced?
It shows Christian fundementalists waging war with firearms against the forces of the Anti Christ during the seven year Tribulation period.
The game shows armed Christian guerilla forces killing unbelevers in execution style, then bowing their heads in prayer after they murder people. Killing people in large numbers or one at a time.
There are scenes where large groups of these army of God Christians stand in front of just one person and shoot them, then pray over them.
If someone seeing this and did not know it was a so called Christian video game, they could easily think it was an extremist Muslim video game.
It shows Christian fundementalists waging war with firearms against the forces of the Anti Christ during the seven year Tribulation period.
The game shows armed Christian guerilla forces killing unbelevers in execution style, then bowing their heads in prayer after they murder people. Killing people in large numbers or one at a time.
There are scenes where large groups of these army of God Christians stand in front of just one person and shoot them, then pray over them.
If someone seeing this and did not know it was a so called Christian video game, they could easily think it was an extremist Muslim video game.
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nby
Guest
Jesus is God and when he became a man he became 100% human. If humans are finite then did God become finite when Jesus was a man? I don’t think so. Therefore according to our religion neither are humans finite. I don’t know what the Catholic Church teaches about this issue and I hope I am not in disagreement with it.
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Mirdath
Guest
Nothing at all – remember, you were talking about how there are supposedly no patron saints for things the church disapproves of? Why would I need to look up ‘against robbers’ when that wouldn’t do anything for my point?
Thomas Aquinas:
Pre-emptive wars are definitely outside Augustine’s definition.
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Valke2
Guest
Humans are finite. I would be very surpised if the Church taught otherwise. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, and all that.
Whatever you believe happens to the soul after death, your physical body and your mind are finite objects. Are you trying to say that we are infinite and therefore we can understand the infinite GOd?
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johnnycatholic
Guest
Compared to politically caused wars there are relatively few wars caused by religion. The majority of religious wars were caused by religious beliefs that were bad for society (albigensianism) or Islam.
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Mirdath
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I’ve found most wars are fought over one of three things: land, resources, and religion.
How was Albigensianism bad for society? And for what it’s worth, Innocent III vowed to suppress the Albigensians in 1198 when he was elected pope. At first he tried to do so peacefully, but that only lasted a decade compared to the forty years or so of that crusade.
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BobCatholic
Guest
Because I’m Catholic.
So if someone is not Catholic and claims a Catholic belief is not sustainable and demands the Catholic Church change their teachings, why should I accept this non-catholic’s magisterial authority?
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pira114
Guest
Interesting comments from a person who claims to be a Jew. I would argue that if you truely believe what you have written, you are not really Jewish anymore.
And I don’t think it will result in an annihilation of a civilization. I think it will eventually result in the annihilation of the muslim culture in the Middle East, and I don’t consider them civilized.
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nby
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The boundary of our understanding has always been expanding. The rate of its expansion is increasing. If we are finite beings then the opposite would have been true. The rate of expansion would have been decreasing and would ultimately drop to zero. But the evidence points to an overall increase rather than a decrease.
Why are my mind and body finite? According to what rule?
What I am trying to say is that we are infinite by nature which is why we can feel the presence of God who is also infinite. If we are finite then how can we sense infinity? Because of the fact that we do sense God, we can have an idea of what he is, and we can build on top of that idea as we have been doing so for thousands of years. The longer we last as human beings, the better the idea we will have about God.
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Mirdath
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Fine then, why do Catholics accept the authority of the magisterium – and don’t give me ‘because they’re Catholic’.
No reason at all – and I never said that was how it should go. Read my post again.
Ever hear of mutually assured destruction? It was what kept the US and the Soviet Union from lobbing nukes at each other during the Cold War. This is coming right back into play: Pakistan’s already nuclear, and more Middle Eastern states are jumping on it. If we accept your premise, answer to the thread is a resounding NO.
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Valke2
Guest
That’s an interesting argument. On what do you base it?
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Valke2
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That is not a valid argument to support the theory that we are infinite beings. I am assuming that by “boundary of our understanding” you are talking about our knowledge of how the universe works. The fact that we, as finite beings, have continued to increase this knowledge, does not mean we are infinite. Einstein has not increased his knowledge of how the universe works for several years now. Neither has Peter, Paul or Mary (both the originals and the folk group, one set because they are dead and the other set because they have chosen not look beyond the 60s).
I don’t know of any Christian, Jewish or Islamic teaching that says our bodies are infinite by nature. It is possible for the finite to sense the infinite but not to understand/comprehend it. I believe this is what some refer to as the ineffable mystery of God. As a finite being I can comprehend that there is something greater than my total understanding of everything. But I cannot comprhend what that something is. Not perfectly anyway. To paraphrase someone, if I could completely understand or comprehend God, I would be God.
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Valke2
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Merry Holiday to all.
THe problem with applyind mutually assured destruction to people who are defending their faith, is that they are not acting on a logically supportable set of beliefs. What I mean is that if you believe that your neighobor’s behavior threatens your chances, and your children’s chances of getting into paradise in the hereafter, then you aren’t going to be overly concerned with their ability to defend themselves against a nuclear weapon. You are willing to die in this world in order to ensure your place in the next world. So the fact that detonating a nuclear weapon against heathens may result in their detonating a nuclear weapon in your backyard, will not serve as a deterrent.
MAD only works on people who are not willing to sacrifice their lives and their civilization for their beliefs.
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Mirdath
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That it doesn’t work as a deterrent to people who are blinded by faith is the reason it answers your question in the negative. Sorry if I wasn’t being too clear – I’d meant that the threat of nuclear armageddon is what kept the Cold War (mostly) cold, and that in this situation common sense would not prevail.
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BobCatholic
Guest
Let’s see their doctrines.
Suicide is good.
Abandonment of the wife by the husband (and vice versa) is desirable.
Concubinage is preferable to marriage.
Making children is bad.
Taking of oaths was forbidden. This means no promises, vows, or anything like that. So when they signed contracts, they just said “this is forbidden” and under their doctrine dissolved contracts at whim.
Yup. This was all good for society.
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