Will we survive religion?

[Gilbert_Keith]

steppenworlf

*Things and people like this blow big holes in your short sighted theories.
*
Well said. Atheists always like to crab about “Christians” who fell short of Christ. Nowhere is there ever any acknowledgement of the good done by Christians who did not fall short.

Catholic hospitals, schools, missionary activities, care for the poor and the marginalized for nearly 2,000 years… it’s as if they never happened if you happen to be reading Bertrand Russell or H.L. Mencken. All that ever happened in 2,000 years was Crusades, Inquisitions, and Wars of the Reformation. But when Russell and Mencken were writing their diatribes against Christianity, Hitler, Stalin, and Mao had not yet piled up the cruelties that it was possible for atheists to achieve once they had their turn at the helm.

 

[R_McGeddon]

R McGeddon

Religion only exists because of the concept of God. If there was no concept of God, what exactly would be rejected?

The concept of God … simply because you could never get rid of the concept. Humans have tried and failed miserably. Even the most rabid atheists cannot ignore the concept, as is evident by their presence at Catholic Answers.

Do you have reading difficulties?

I asked: “If there was no concept of God, what would be rejected?”

You answered: “The concept of God”

If there is no concept of God, how can it be rejected?

Admit it, you don’t even know what megalomania actually means!

megalomania “… a symptom of illness marked by the delusion of greatness”

Fits Nietzsche … putting himself on a par with the Crucified One…

How do you know Nietzsche wasn’t being sarcastic?

And ain’t it a sorry mess!?!?

Could be worse if there was no religion at all!

If there was no religion at all, your often quoted unholy trinity, wouldn’t have had a reason to kill all those people.

So the existence of religion is the reason for, as you put it, the worst atrocities of the 20th century.

 

[R_McGeddon]

Well said. Atheists always like to crab about “Christians” who fell short of Christ. Nowhere is there ever any acknowledgement of the good done by Christians who did not fall short.

Catholic hospitals, schools, missionary activities, care for the poor and the marginalized for nearly 2,000 years.

If there is a truly caring God, why is the world in such a mess?

There is so much brutality and injustice in the world, it just does not equate to a loving and caring God.

I would love to be proved wrong.

 

[Keikiolu]

If there is a truly caring God, why is the world in such a mess?

There is so much brutality and injustice in the world, it just does not equate to a loving and caring God.

I would love to be proved wrong.

God’s job is to teach us that it is wise and good to accept Him.

Our job is to come to understand that.

God does not impose suffering. He allows it, as a teaching tool.

The point of the universe is not to make you, or any individual, comfortable.

What is your view as to what the point of the universe is?

What I’m really asking is, “If there is no God what is YOUR particular idolarty?”

Do you idolize “comfort”, “non-messiness”, and humanly defined/imposed “justice”?

 

[Keikiolu]

Do you have reading difficulties?

I asked: “If there was no concept of God, what would be rejected?”

You answered: “The concept of God”

If there is no concept of God, how can it be rejected?

The point is that it’s impossible for there NOT to be a concept of God.

It is implicit in human beings.

If you disagree with that, then we have an impasse, as it is an axiom.

How do you know Nietzsche wasn’t being sarcastic?

If there was no religion at all, your often quoted unholy trinity, wouldn’t have had a reason to kill all those people.

There CAN’T BE “NO RELIGION”. (Again,… axiomatic.)

So the existence of religion is the reason for, as you put it, the worst atrocities of the 20th century.

If Religion is a necessary component of human nature, which it is, and all acts are necessarily based on one’s religious beliefs, which they are, then ALL ACTS of EVERYONE at EVERY TIME would be the result of religion.

Therefore, if all acts are religious acts, including atrocities and beatificies (not sure that’s a word), then to “blame” religion for bad (or good) acts is a distinction without a difference.

In other words, if there’s no difference between a “religious atrocity” and any other “atrocity”, then to BLAME religion itself for them is just silly.

Now,… there IS true religion and untrue religions.

True religion, if followed perfectly would probably die out as it would be overwhelmed by “unfair tactics” of untrue religions.

That is why true religion was given to fallen humans. They are “allowed” (though punished for) doing what it takes to ensure the true religion’s survival in the world.

But, that doesn’t negate the fact that there IS a true religion, or that the untrue religions will persecute the true religion.

When people claim they want to “eliminate religion” they are really saying that they’d like to replace THEIR religion with the one that they see as the “bad religion”.

That is simply idolatry.

To DENY God’s existence is to try to replace God’s place with one’s self.

Good luck with that.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

R McGeddon

*If there is a truly caring God, why is the world in such a mess?
*
Because people don’t care about God?

*How do you know Nietzsche wasn’t being sarcastic?
*
Because he ended up in a lunatic asylum … a megalomaniac.

 

[R_McGeddon]

God’s job is to teach us that it is wise and good to accept Him.

Our job is to come to understand that.

It would be nice if he attended class periodically.

God does not impose suffering. He allows it, as a teaching tool.

There are more effective tools.

The point of the universe is not to make you, or any individual, comfortable.

What is your view as to what the point of the universe is?

From my observations the universe seems utterly pointless.

What I’m really asking is, “If there is no God what is YOUR particular idolarty?”

Do you idolize “comfort”, “non-messiness”, and humanly defined/imposed “justice”?

I would like to see a world where nobody went without food, nobody suffered at the hands of other people or disease and most of all a world where there was no need for politicians.

 

[R_McGeddon]

The point is that it’s impossible for there NOT to be a concept of God.

I was asking the question hypothetically.

 

[whatever]

So the existence of religion is the reason for, as you put it, the worst atrocities of the 20th century.

I’m not a theist, but I don’t buy this.

Atrocities are possible because of our tribal nature. The nice thing about religion is that it’s trivial to brand people who like look like us as part of them, i.e. fair game.

It’s all about power, greed, resources, and stuff we want badly enough to cross the line and what better rationalization than a vengeful sky daddy to cast aside moral scruples. It’s the ultimate “I’m just following orders” ploy…

 

[R_McGeddon]

R McGeddon

*If there is a truly caring God, why is the world in such a mess?
*
Because people don’t care about God?

They might if he put in an appearance ocasionally.

It’s not asking much.

*How do you know Nietzsche wasn’t being sarcastic?
*
Because he ended up in a lunatic asylum … a megalomaniac.

He didn’t kill though did he, unlike David Koresh.

 

[R_McGeddon]

It’s all about power, greed, resources, and stuff we want badly enough to cross the line and what better rationalization than a vengeful sky daddy to cast aside moral scruples. It’s the ultimate “I’m just following orders” ploy…

Are you saying that if there was no religion it wouldn’t be so easy to cross that line?

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu
God’s job is to teach us that it is wise and good to accept Him.

Our job is to come to understand that.

It would be nice if he attended class periodically.

Your not in class now…!?

Curious,… I am…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu
God does not impose suffering. He allows it, as a teaching tool.

There are more effective tools.

According to whom?

Oh,… that’s right,… you’re God. Sorry,… forgot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu
The point of the universe is not to make you, or any individual, comfortable.

What is your view as to what the point of the universe is?

From my observations the universe seems utterly pointless.

And you would have others be as miserable as you are?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu
What I’m really asking is, “If there is no God what is YOUR particular idolarty?”

Do you idolize “comfort”, “non-messiness”, and humanly defined/imposed “justice”?

I would like to see a world where nobody went without food, nobody suffered at the hands of other people or disease and most of all a world where there was no need for politicians.

And by what methods of man would you bring that about?

I suggest you strive VERY VERY hard to use those methods, and see what the result is.

Then,… in your abject frustration, read the catechism to discover why those methods don’t work.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatever
It’s all about power, greed, resources, and stuff we want badly enough to cross the line and what better rationalization than a vengeful sky daddy to cast aside moral scruples. It’s the ultimate “I’m just following orders” ploy…

Are you saying that if there was no religion it wouldn’t be so easy to cross that line?

If there’s no higher power (or higher goal to strive for) then, naturally, men will be power mad and greedy beyond measure.

If you justify your acts on a made-up god who justifies your power-hunger and greed then is that god not simply an “excuse” (idol)?

True religion constrains the practices of evil, and creates unity.

Untrue religion propogates the practices of evil, and creates fractiousness.

Which religion is yours?

 

[whatever]

And by what methods of man would you bring that about?

I suggest you strive VERY VERY hard to use those methods, and see what the result is.

Then,… in your abject frustration, read the catechism to discover why those methods don’t work.

Did you just say that the catechism explains why mankind cannot overcome hunger, disease, and politicians?

 

[Keikiolu]

Did you just say that the catechism explains why mankind cannot overcome hunger, disease, and politicians?

Yes.

Read it.

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

(( I’m serious. ))

 

[whatever]

Are you saying that if there was no religion it wouldn’t be so easy to cross that line?

I’m saying that we’d then contrive a substitute or fall back to old and less oblique staples of tribalism.

 

[whatever]

If there’s no higher power (or higher goal to strive for) then, naturally, men will be power mad and greedy beyond measure.

What almost all people want is that the next day is just about the same as today, perhaps a tad better. Neither the religious nor the secular have cornered the market on greed and hunger for power.

 

[whatever]

Yes.

Read it.

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

(( I’m serious. ))

Thanks, but no thanks. How do you make it through the day with such a hopeless outlook?

There is no doubt in my mind that we can make a serious dent into hunger; we have the tools and resources and to date, it’s more of a distribution problem rather than anything else. We’ll have to live with disease, although we’ll learn how to fix some things, while new ones show up. Politicians, well, you got me there. Scum always floats to the top.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu
Yes.

Read it.

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

(( I’m serious. ))

Thanks, but no thanks. How do you make it through the day with such a hopeless outlook?

Where’s the hoplessness in my outlook?

What ARE you talking about?

There is no doubt in my mind that we can make a serious dent into hunger; we have the tools and resources and to date, it’s more of a distribution problem rather than anything else. We’ll have to live with disease, although we’ll learn how to fix some things, while new ones show up. Politicians, well, you got me there. Scum always floats to the top.

So your solution is to continue to do what we’ve been doing, until it works?

What is that a definition of, again…?

If you want some real answers to real problems, check out the catechism.

If you choose to not do that, then you’ve told me you’re just giving lip-service to solving world problems, as you are willfully rejecting a resource (out of hand) that could provide some answers.

The reason problems aren’t solved is because people don’t use the resources available to them due to the arrogance of prejudice that “if it’s not from me it’s not worth anything”.

That is the basic sin of “idolatry”, of putting your self before what God has made available to you.

Keep working on that “save the world through making man a god” tactic.

If you work hard at it, you’ll discover your humility.

If you don’t (which you won’t), you MIGHT check into a resource that can help.

The Catholic Church.

 

[Mirdath]

Where’s the hoplessness in my outlook?

You seem to fatalistically accept God’s will, or what you perceive to be God’s will, without trying anything yourself. ‘The gods help those who help themselves’ has been around since at least Aesop’s time, and probably well before.

If you want some real answers to real problems, check out the catechism.

If you choose to not do that, then you’ve told me you’re just giving lip-service to solving world problems, as you are willfully rejecting a resource (out of hand) that could provide some answers.

Then how come you guys haven’t figured it out yet? You’ve had 2000 years and held ultimate power over at least Europe for several centuries, I think we could expect a little more progress than has been made. And much of what progress has been made on them has been accomplished by non-theists, or was secular in intent and execution.

Keep working on that “save the world through making man a god” tactic.

If you work hard at it, you’ll discover your humility.

That’s a LaVeyan Satanist attitude, not one common to all non-theists by any stretch. You can’t generalize either theism or non-theism like that; about all you can say is ‘they do/don’t believe in a deity or deities’.