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JoeyWarren
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Very good on the replies MariaG! 
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Church_Militant
Guest
That is not true…please open a thread on that over in apologetics and then document all the proof that you have of that, because I don’t think you can do it from historical sources. Which makes it all just someone’s propaganda.
Will I be in heaven?
I know that God will do His part faithfully.
I intend to do my part as well with the help of His graces.
SOUL of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me.
Within Thy wounds, hide me.
Separated from Thee let me never be.
From the malignant enemy, defend me.
At the hour of death, call me.
To come to Thee, bid me,
That I may praise Thee in the company
Of Thy Saints, for all eternity.
Amen.
Pax vobiscum,
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marysson
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My answer is simple…it the answer of JP2 when asked this question, and its the Biblical answer.
“I hope so.”
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the “hope” (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ’s sufferings so that “if possible” he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.
I can list many, many more…
“I hope so.”
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the “hope” (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ’s sufferings so that “if possible” he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.
I can list many, many more…
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Eden
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The Baptists resulted from a break with the Anglicans. Your founder is John Smith and your faith was created in the late 16th century/early 17th century.
philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/christ/esp/baptist.html
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12volt_man
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12volt_man:
OK. Once one has done what the scriptures say we must do to be saved, what rituals do you believe that we need to do in order to be saved?
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12volt_man
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Actually, Marilena has told me in this very thread that I cannot be saved precisely because I don’t rely on rituals for my salvation.
According to her, the Christ’s atonement is not enough.
Do her beliefs not accurately reflect Roman Catholic teaching?
Where are these things recorded in scripture that we are to add anything to Christ’s work on the cross for salvation?
I don’t. I believe that the priests and nuns who taught me, taught me well and evidently they didn’t think I misunderstood, because they’re the ones who told me what a good student I was and how well I grasped these things.
Since you know the importance that we place on scripture for matters of doctrine, perhaps it would be helpful for you to show me where in scripture we’re told that Christ’s atonement on our behalf isn’t sufficient to save.
But by adding works and rituals to the atonement, you are implicitly denying it’s sufficiency.
Which words of His do you think I’ve misunderstood?
Why is it that when I have to go before a panel of pastors and teachers on a regular basis to account for what I’ve taught and to be quizzed on various doctrinal issues, these men of God don’t believe that I’ve misunderstood?
Why do they continue to allow me to teach and to minister in their churches if I’ve misunderstood? Why have the people of my church chosen me to be a deacon for the last twelve years if those who hear my teaching on a regular basis think I’ve misunderstood?
There was only one church in the New Testament. Both the Roman Catholics and Bapitsts/Anabaptists grew out of that church.
Calvin came much later.
If simply having been around longer is proof of it’s truth, then you should become a Bhuddist.
Maria, I’ve never said that Roman Catholics can’t be saved. It was the Roman Catholics here who say that we can’t be saved.
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Eden
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That makes no sense at all. We are talking about the earliest Christian Church. As Christianity is Truth and the Catholic Church is the Church established by Christ, being around longer does matter. It is absolutely ridiculous to make any reference to Buddhism here at all. But I think you knew that.
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Eden
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The Catholics here have told you that individual salvation is not assured. Please do not purposely distort the responses you received. If your argument has merit it should stand on its own without distortions or non sequitor references to Buddhism.
Edited to add the question: Why did your parents send you to Catholic schools and to CCD after school programs if you are Baptist? I think it would be useful in understanding where you are coming from if I could understand why you were immersed in Catholicism in your childhood if you and your family were not Catholic.
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12volt_man
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I haven’t distorted anything. I have been told by Roman Catholics here (in this very thread, in fact) that we cannot be saved outside of the Roman Catholic church and it’s salvific rituals.
As for Buddhism, this is not non-sequitor. It’s a relevant point.
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john_ennis
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Just a direct response to the thread:
I’m working out my salvation in fear and trembling, as Paul said I should.
Peace.
John
I’m working out my salvation in fear and trembling, as Paul said I should.
Peace.
John
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JoeyWarren
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Once done? Maintaining Salvation is an ongoing process.
1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our “hope” (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.
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Eden
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- You* have* distorted what they have said. The Catechism clearly states what the Church teaches on the salvation of those outside the Church established by Christ. The entire Catechism is available for review if you click on the last hyperlink in my signature. There is a distinction made between those who knowingly reject His Church and those who through no fault of their own have not been raised in the truth.
- How is Buddhism a relevant point? You are equating Buddhism with Christianity. I’m surprised to see you state that the two are equally valid truths.
- Could you please answer my question as to why you were in Catholic school and doubling up on CCD as a child when you were not in a Catholic family? I’m just not getting this.
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12volt_man
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**For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. ** - 1 Tim 4:10 (KJV)
Nowhere in this verse does it say that.
And we call them ordinances, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are rituals. The only difference is that our rituals are strictly symbolic and not required for salvation.
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12volt_man
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No, I have not distorted what they said.
Marilena has told me that I cannot be saved outside of the Roman Catholic church and MariaG has told me that I am going to Hell.
I do not reject “His church”. I am a part of His church. I reject that the Roman Catholic church is the only vehicle through which God has revealed His truth and that the rituals of the Roman Catholic church are required for salvation, over and above Christ’s atonement.
I would be surprised at that, too. But, as you very well know, I’ve never said such a thing.
As I’ve already explained, my stepfather and new family at that time were Roman Catholic.
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JimG
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And yet you would require re-baptism of those coming into your denomination from other Christian denominations. Is their existing faith not sufficient? If they refuse re-baptism are they still saved?
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Eden
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Yes, what Baptists do is strictly symbolic and as such is “ritual” and nothing greater. The fact that when Sacraments are administered an actual physical change takes place moves them out of the realm of “ritual” i.e. “any customary observance or practice” and into “Sacrament” or “a rite which is a means of or visible form of grace”. Quite clearly a “Sacrament” is distinctly different from the word “ritual”. I’m surprised you did not know the distinction.
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12volt_man
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Like I said, whatever you choose to call them does not change the fact that they, by their very definition, are rituals.
Nor does the fact that you pour more importance into their meaning make them any less ritualistic.
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Eden
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As you have rejected the Church knowingly, that seems more likely. Surely, you realize that none of us here has the final say. And of course, there is always the possiblity that you will embrace the truth before death.
That is your opinion. The origin of the Church is clear. There is to be only one. If you are a member of a heretical group that broke away from His Church (such as Baptist) you are not a member of His Church. You are a member of John Smith’s church from 17th century.
You did equate the two. You said if the age of the Church were a factor in determining truth, then one should become a Buddhist - eliminating the most important distinction which is Christ. Clearly both the age of the Church and the truth of Christianity are what distinguishes the Catholic Church from the Buddhist beliefs and from the heresy of Protestantism. References to a belief system founded before Christ is a non sequitor when determining the true Church.
And are they still Catholic today?
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Eden
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I can’t believe you are missing the distinction. Quite clearly the infusion of grace is not a ritual. Please do not equate your Baptist rituals with Sacraments. That is like comparing a plastic plant to a real, living, thriving flower.
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JimG
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Perhaps a clarification is in order. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that the sacraments are an absolute necessity for salvation. Otherwise it would teach that non-Catholics can not be saved, and it does not teach that. It teaches rather, that salvation is possible for non-Catholics, even for non-Christians who sincerely seek God’s will. Indeed the Church teaches that God’s will is for the salvation of all, and that Christ died for all.
It does teach that Christ established his Church and His sacraments as means of grace. We are human beings and we experience reality through physical means, so he made the sacraments as visible signs of invisible grace. That doesn’t mean God can’t still give grace through invisible means, directly. He can. Sacraments are for man, but they don’t limit God.
It does teach that Christ established his Church and His sacraments as means of grace. We are human beings and we experience reality through physical means, so he made the sacraments as visible signs of invisible grace. That doesn’t mean God can’t still give grace through invisible means, directly. He can. Sacraments are for man, but they don’t limit God.
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