Will you be in heaven?

[MariaG]

12volt_man,

Took me awhile to read all the posts this morning.

It is hard to respond in this thread, so many different things are being brought up. Focusing in on a single issue would really be much better.

However, you really need to stop misrepresenting others words. You said I said you were going to hell. I did. But you implied that I said that because you are not Catholic and do not partake in the Sacraments. I did not say that. Remember, you said you reject all Roman Catholic teachings. Then I told you that you are going to hell because the Catholic Church teaches that Christ died for your sins. Remember that? If you reject all the teachings of the Catholic Church, then surely you reject that He died for your sins. If you reject that Christ died for your sins I think we both would agree that you would be going to hell unless you change that belief. But by taking my words out of context, you implied something I never said ie that you must be an official member of the Catholic Church ( ie go to the Catholic Church) or you are going to hell. Never said that nor is it true.

If you continue to say that you must be an official member of the Catholic Church, say that it is a teaching of the Catholic church and ever use me again to prove it, you are bearing false witness. *I never said that. Please, *do not misrepresent what I say like that. You seem to be an intelligent person, as stated before, your arguments should be able to stand alone without twisting our replies back to you in order to support your view. Continue to do this and you will find yourself suspended or banned altogether. Something I would truly regret.

*“There is no salvation outside of the Church” *I suggest you start a thread on it to discuss that issue alone since you do not understand exactly what that means. No matter what your priests and nuns told you.

You could also start another thread, like a thread discussing the Sacraments. That would really be a good one. Because I am having trouble understanding your position on that one. And you do not understand the Catholic teaching on that.

Truly, why not start one or two new threads and lets intelligently debate things instead of jumping from topic to topic? Put a link to them in this thread if you know how to use that feature

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Mickey]

12volt_man:

You’d be the first one. People here, as well as on another message board I post on have told me that I cannot be saved without following the rituals of the Roman Catholic church.

One person here has even declared that I am going to Hell.

Can you guess how many protestants (including baptists) like to tell us that we are not even Christians?!?

I’ll say it again.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

 

[Mickey]

12volt_man,

Took me awhile to read all the posts this morning.

It is hard to respond in this thread, so many different things are being brought up. Focusing in on a single issue would really be much better.

However, you really need to stop misrepresenting others words. You said I said you were going to hell. I did. But you implied that I said that because you are not Catholic and do not partake in the Sacraments. I did not say that. Remember, you said you reject all Roman Catholic teachings. Then I told you that you are going to hell because the Catholic Church teaches that Christ died for your sins. Remember that? If you reject all the teachings of the Catholic Church, then surely you reject that He died for your sins. If you reject that Christ died for your sins I think we both would agree that you would be going to hell unless you change that belief. But by taking my words out of context, you implied something I never said ie that you must be an official member of the Catholic Church ( ie go to the Catholic Church) or you are going to hell. Never said that nor is it true.

If you continue to say that you must be an official member of the Catholic Church, say that it is a teaching of the Catholic church and ever use me again to prove it, you are bearing false witness. *I never said that. Please, *do not misrepresent what I say like that. You seem to be an intelligent person, as stated before, your arguments should be able to stand alone without twisting our replies back to you in order to support your view. Continue to do this and you will find yourself suspended or banned altogether. Something I would truly regret.

*“There is no salvation outside of the Church” *I suggest you start a thread on it to discuss that issue alone since you do not understand exactly what that means. No matter what your priests and nuns told you.

You could also start another thread, like a thread discussing the Sacraments. That would really be a good one. Because I am having trouble understanding your position on that one. And you do not understand the Catholic teaching on that.

Truly, why not start one or two new threads and lets intelligently debate things instead of jumping from topic to topic? Put a link to them in this thread if you know how to use that feature

God Bless,
Maria

Thank you for articulating what transpired, Maria.

 

[12volt_man]

Mickey:

Can you guess how many protestants (including baptists) like to tell us that we are not even Christians?!?

I’ll say it again.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Then take it up with them. I’ve never said that.

That somebody else has acted badly toward you doesn’t give you the right to tell me I’m going to Hell because I’m relying on Christ and not your rituals for my salvation.

 

[Eden]

12volt_man:

Then take it up with them. I’ve never said that.

That somebody else has acted badly toward you doesn’t give you the right to tell me I’m going to Hell because I’m relying on Christ and not your rituals for my salvation.

It speaks volumes that you are focusing on whether or not others believe you are going to Hell rather than addressing the true issue which is why you believe you are assured salvation.

 

[12volt_man]

MrS:

You (we all) need Jesus Christ.

He is found most fully in the church(singular) which He founded.

And I am a part of that church.

Hell is for those who mortally reject Him. It does **not **appear that is the case with you.

No, I have wholeheartedly embraced Christ. What I reject are the rituals and traditions of the Roman Catholic church and the authority of the pope.

But I do embrace Christ and His atonement on the cross.

 

[12volt_man]

Eden:

It speaks volumes that you are focusing on whether or not others believe you are going to Hell rather than addressing the true issue which is why you believe you are assured salvation.

As I’ve stated many times, I believe that my salvation is assured because I trust God’s word, which tells us that our salvation is assured.

 

[Mickey]

12volt_man:

Then take it up with them. I’ve never said that.

That somebody else has acted badly toward you doesn’t give you the right to tell me I’m going to Hell because I’m relying on Christ and not your rituals for my salvation.

What the heck are you talking about? I’m saying that we do not make judgements about the whole, based on insults that a few people may or may not have said to you. I don’t judge you because another baptist says I am not Christian.
Get it?

 

[Lazerlike42]

Once more I’ll say -

If St. Paul wasn’t sure if he was going to make it to Heaven, I sure as heck am not going to say I am sure!

 

[Eden]

12volt_man:

As I’ve stated many times, I believe that my salvation is assured because I trust God’s word, which tells us that our salvation is assured.

You have been given clear examples of how individual salvation is not assured with quotes from the Bible. You choose to reject that.

 

[12volt_man]

MariaG:

You said I said you were going to hell. I did.

I know.

But you implied that I said that because you are not Catholic and do not partake in the Sacraments. I did not say that. Remember, you said you reject all Roman Catholic teachings. Then I told you that you are going to hell because the Catholic Church teaches that Christ died for your sins. Remember that?

Yes, I do. The problem is that the Roman Catholic church doesn’t teach that we are saved by Christ’s death alone, but by appropriating His forgiveness by taking part in various salvific rituals and submitting to the authority of the pope.

I soundly reject that.

If you reject all the teachings of the Catholic Church, then surely you reject that He died for your sins.

No, I reject all of the other baggage that the Roman Catholic church teaches come along with His death.

If you reject that Christ died for your sins I think we both would agree that you would be going to hell unless you change that belief. But by taking my words out of context, you implied something I never said ie that you must be an official member of the Catholic Church ( ie go to the Catholic Church) or you are going to hell. Never said that nor is it true.

Thank you for clarifying. I will accept that explanation but I do believe that you declared me on my way to Hell for rejecting the teachings of the Roman Catholic church.

Please,

do not misrepresent what I say like that.

I don’t believe that I did.

*“There is no salvation outside of the Church” *I suggest you start a thread on it to discuss that issue alone since you do not understand exactly what that means. No matter what your priests and nuns told you.

So then, the priests and nuns are wrong, your fellow Roman Catholics are wrong, but you’re right?

Because I am having trouble understanding your position on that one.

Simple. We do not have sacraments.

The Bible teaches that there are two ordinances: believers’ baptism and the Lord’s Supper. Both of these are purely symbolic and do not add to one’s salvation or standing with God.

 

[12volt_man]

Eden:

You have been given clear examples of how individual salvation is not assured with quotes from the Bible. You choose to reject that.

I can’t reject what doesn’t exist.

 

[Eden]

12volt_man:

I know.

Yes, I do. The problem is that the Roman Catholic church doesn’t teach that we are saved by Christ’s death alone, but by appropriating His forgiveness by taking part in various salvific rituals and submitting to the authority of the pope.

I soundly reject that.

No, I reject all of the other baggage that the Roman Catholic church teaches come along with His death.

Thank you for clarifying. I will accept that explanation but I do believe that you declared me on my way to Hell for rejecting the teachings of the Roman Catholic church.

I don’t believe that I did.

So then, the priests and nuns are wrong, your fellow Roman Catholics are wrong, but you’re right?

Simple. We do not have sacraments.

The Bible teaches that there are two ordinances: believers’ baptism and the Lord’s Supper. Both of these are purely symbolic and do not add to one’s salvation or standing with God.

Again, if you would like to know what the Church teaches on the issue of salvation, read the Catechism and consult with a member of clergy. Your attempts to discredit individuals on this forum personally do nothing to support your belief that you are assured salvation. The fact that you continue to focus on whether or not other posters on this forum believe you are going to hell is becoming a side show.

 

[Lazerlike42]

12volt_man:

I know.

Yes, I do. The problem is that the Roman Catholic church doesn’t teach that we are saved by Christ’s death alone, but by appropriating His forgiveness by taking part in various salvific rituals and submitting to the authority of the pope.

I soundly reject that.

We are saved by Christ’s death alone. If you want to say that our taking part in these things means we don’t believe we are saved by His sacrifice alone, then I will point out that you believing one must have faith means that you do not believe you are saved by His sacrifice alone.

So then, the priests and nuns are wrong, your fellow Roman Catholics are wrong, but you’re right?

Many priests and nuns are unfortunately not taught properly. If a baptist minister says that baptists must do good works to be saved, does that mean that that is the “official” baptist belief? Base your understanding of the Catholic Church off of official sources, not your average priests and nuns.

The Bible teaches that there are two ordinances: believers’ baptism and the Lord’s Supper. Both of these are purely symbolic and do not add to one’s salvation or standing with God.

Where does the Bible say anything about “believers baptism” or the Lord’s Supper being ordinances?

 

[Mickey]

12volt_man:

I The problem is that the Roman Catholic church doesn’t teach that we are saved by Christ’s death alone, but by appropriating His forgiveness by taking part in various salvific rituals and submitting to the authority of the pope.

I soundly reject that.

The “salvific rituals” you speak of are the sacraments of the Church instituted by Christ himself. The pope is the successor of St Peter.
You have free will to reject these things. But I highly recommend that you re-think your subjective stance.

 

[Mickey]

12volt_man:

The Bible teaches that there are two ordinances: believers’ baptism and the Lord’s Supper. Both of these are purely symbolic and do not add to one’s salvation or standing with God.

Revisionist interpretation.

 

[12volt_man]

Mickey:

Revisionist interpretation.

2,000 years of orthodoxy interpretation.

 

[12volt_man]

Mickey:

The “salvific rituals” you speak of are the sacraments of the Church instituted by Christ himself.

No. Christ taught that we are saved by virtue of His vicarious death on our behalf, not empty rituals.

The pope is the successor of St Peter.

There is no Biblical evidence for this.

You have free will to reject these things. But I highly recommend that you re-think your subjective stance.

No. Until such time as someone can show me from God’s word - not the Roman Catholic catechism, not man’s opinion, but God’s word - that I and the rest of Christendom am wrong, I am steadfast in this.

 

[Eden]

12volt_man:

There is no Biblical evidence for this.

Yes, there is. The Bible describes the beginning of the Papacy when Jesus says to Peter he is kephas and He will build His Church on him .

In addition, you can find the entire list of successors to Peter here:

newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

 

[Robert_in_SD]

MariaG:

Lutherans and Catholics as a whole, are in more argreement than not when it comes to the promise and hope of heaven.

I would not take the words of one person who uses the word “contract” and make general applications to all Catholics.

MrS summation is, in my opinion, a much better generalization of true Catholic teaching. But as he said, not every Catholic seems to be listening and understanding what Catholics are *supposed *to believe.

Note: I do not believe that Le Cracquere does not know Catholic teaching or is not listening. I am saying that I do not believe the use of the word “contract” is significant to nor reflective of general Catholic thought and teachings.

God Bless,
Maria

I would go as far as saying that use of the word “contract” is not consistent with a Catholic understanding of salvation. We cannot - by any act that we do - bind God to a contract by which we attain Heaven. Anything we merit by our works is attained by God’s grace.