Will you forgive me for asking?

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CHRISTINE77 said:
what do you think and feel Spock? or can you only think?
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I think I feel a great deal, Christine. I have a son who is choosing rebellion, alcoholism, drugs, theft, and threats of violence over a relationship with my wife, son and myself. There is a great deal of pain that I feel over the whole ordeal. There is also compassion for him, and hope for him, and pity for him, and despair for him.

I want to show love for him in all its beautiful forms, including mercy and forgiveness. But I feel, I suppose, as Jesus felt when he lamented over his rebellious children:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

(Matthew 23:37)

You see, I long to forgive him and embrace him and protect him from the destruction to which he has turned, but he refuses to repent, and seek forgiveness. So I withhold mercy and forgiveness. I told him he is not allowed to use our computer, or TV, or DVD player, or stereo, or cell phones, or cars. I told him that he can stay in our home until he is 18, and then he must leave (or we will have the police remove him). I told him he will have to get a job at a grocery store or some retail store, because we won’t be signing off on any college loans for him. My wife told the parents of his friends about his alcohol and drug abuse and said that she does not think it is a good idea to let their sons see him.

Have I forgiven him with my feelings? Yes, I don’t hold a grudge and I long to return to the relationship we once had before he started abusing drugs and alcohol. Do I forgive him with my actions? No, but I am ready to forgive if he meets the conditions, and one of those conditions is that he agree to seek counseling. Until them I won’t be able to forgive him by my actions and remove the consequences I gave him, for he is not willing.
 
spockrates said:
Forgive me for not answering your question.

:o

He threw them out because they did not love Him more than their sin. The same holds true even for those who believe Adam and Eve is a symbolic fable: Our love of sin keeps us from loving Him. Not sure how that explains what love and forgiveness are, Rinnie. Please tell me; I’m all ears!

🙂

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/25/article-1370033-04B4271B0000044D-319_233x423.jpg
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Nope thats not it at all.

God did not throw Adam and Eve out because they sinned, or even loved sin more then him,

God threw them out because in order to be forgiven AHAH back to the point of this thread they had to do something!!

And they refused to do something, and that is REPENT and ask for forgiveness, Conditional would you not agree.

But Adam blamed Eve, then when that didn’t work he even turned HIS sin on GOD and said its your fault you gave me the women.

Eve said THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT!!! See thats where we got that from 😃

They both refused to repent and ask for forgiveness for their sin.
 
spockrates said:
http://www.wychwoodfestival.com/wyc...11/05/1147438_question_mark_icon1-150x150.jpg

Should we love everyone unconditionally with our thoughts and feelings, but only love some conditionally with our actions? If so, then should we forgive everyone unconditionally with our thoughts and feelings, but only forgive some conditionally with our actions?

🤷
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Not at all we should love everyone Unconditionally. And yes we should forgive conditionally simple because that is how God taught us to do.

If you brothers asks your to forgive them you should do so, They MET the condition they asked for forgiveness. You did as God did and granted them that forgiveness.

How can we possiblly LOGICALLY SPEAKING:D Love someone unconditionally but then hold back on conditions. That is not Logical Mr Spock. If you say love then unconditional that means NO condition.

Can you love someone but expect them to REPENT for their SIN? Yep, God says they should. So how can we say they don’t need to repent. Look what happened to Adam and Eve.:eek:

But were did God ever stop LOVING Adam and Eve when they did not Repent? He didn’t which proves Love is unconditional and forgiveness is conditional.

If they refuse to Repent their sin they separate themself from God, God did not separate himself from them. We have free will. They had to repent with their free will to become again one with God.

If they would choose not to accept God that is their free will. But it has nothing to do with Gods love for them, its thier love for God and free will to either be with him or not.
 
spockrates said:
I think I feel a great deal, Christine. I have a son who is choosing rebellion, alcoholism, drugs, theft, and threats of violence over a relationship with my wife, son and myself. There is a great deal of pain that I feel over the whole ordeal. There is also compassion for him, and hope for him, and pity for him, and despair for him.

I want to show love for him in all its beautiful forms, including mercy and forgiveness. But I feel, I suppose, as Jesus felt when he lamented over his rebellious children:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

(Matthew 23:37)

You see, I long to forgive him and embrace him and protect him from the destruction to which he has turned, but he refuses to repent, and seek forgiveness. So I withhold mercy and forgiveness. I told him he is not allowed to use our computer, or TV, or DVD player, or stereo, or cell phones, or cars. I told him that he can stay in our home until he is 18, and then he must leave (or we will have the police remove him). I told him he will have to get a job at a grocery store or some retail store, because we won’t be signing off on any college loans for him. My wife told the parents of his friends about his alcohol and drug abuse and said that she does not think it is a good idea to let their sons see him.

Have I forgiven him with my feelings? Yes, I don’t hold a grudge and I long to return to the relationship we once had before he started abusing drugs and alcohol. Do I forgive him with my actions? No, but I am ready to forgive if he meets the conditions, and one of those conditions is that he agree to seek counseling. Until them I won’t be able to forgive him by my actions and remove the consequences I gave him, for he is not willing.
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There you go, And by the way, I don’t know if you are using this as an example or are really going through this. If so my heart is with you. This is hell on earth I am sure.

But see you are like God because you LOVE the sinner and forgive the SINNER but the SINNER must QUIT the sin.

You are saying I love you and my love for you is unconditional but your Sin and your actions are unacceptable and I will not accept this from you.

If you say do what you want I love you, you are not being a good parent because he needs you to NOT accept his sin,

Just like Adam and Eve, Until they accept their sin and ask for forgivenss they will not even begin to quit the sin.

You have proven a point also. How we are told when we sin in hurts Christ worse. Well now you have a great understanding of what sin can do to the Father.

You I am sure are in more pain and carry much more anxiety then your Son at this time. And you and your wife are living in HELL.

My daughter never did drugs but lived in sin with her boyfriend, I know this is not as bad in some peoples eyes, and I am sure you would trade her sin anyday. But the point is mortal sin is death of the soul. And not matter what it is, it separates us from God.

Go to the Blessed Mother, Tell your wife to also. The Blessed Mother loves him so much and she will go with you to her Son and help you. I will also pray for you. I know what this can be like. Stick with the Blessed Mother and Jesus help is on the way.
 
rinnie said:
Nope thats not it at all.

God did not throw Adam and Eve out because they sinned, or even loved sin more then him,

God threw them out because in order to be forgiven AHAH back to the point of this thread they had to do something!!

And they refused to do something, and that is REPENT and ask for forgiveness, Conditional would you not agree.

But Adam blamed Eve, then when that didn’t work he even turned HIS sin on GOD and said its your fault you gave me the women.

Eve said THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT!!! See thats where we got that from 😃

They both refused to repent and ask for forgiveness for their sin.
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I hear that!

👍
 
rinnie said:
Not at all we should love everyone Unconditionally. And yes we should forgive conditionally simple because that is how God taught us to do.

If you brothers asks your to forgive them you should do so, They MET the condition they asked for forgiveness. You did as God did and granted them that forgiveness.

How can we possiblly LOGICALLY SPEAKING:D Love someone unconditionally but then hold back on conditions. That is not Logical Mr Spock. If you say love then unconditional that means NO condition.

Can you love someone but expect them to REPENT for their SIN? Yep, God says they should. So how can we say they don’t need to repent. Look what happened to Adam and Eve.:eek:

But were did God ever stop LOVING Adam and Eve when they did not Repent? He didn’t which proves Love is unconditional and forgiveness is conditional.

If they refuse to Repent their sin they separate themself from God, God did not separate himself from them. We have free will. They had to repent with their free will to become again one with God.

If they would choose not to accept God that is their free will. But it has nothing to do with Gods love for them, its thier love for God and free will to either be with him or not.
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Rinnie:

My turn to ask you to answer a question I’ve asked several times in different ways: Is the act of forgiveness an act of love, or is forgiving *not *an example of loving?

🤷
 
rinnie said:
There you go, And by the way, I don’t know if you are using this as an example or are really going through this. If so my heart is with you. This is hell on earth I am sure.

But see you are like God because you LOVE the sinner and forgive the SINNER but the SINNER must QUIT the sin.

You are saying I love you and my love for you is unconditional but your Sin and your actions are unacceptable and I will not accept this from you.

If you say do what you want I love you, you are not being a good parent because he needs you to NOT accept his sin,

Just like Adam and Eve, Until they accept their sin and ask for forgivenss they will not even begin to quit the sin.

You have proven a point also. How we are told when we sin in hurts Christ worse. Well now you have a great understanding of what sin can do to the Father.

You I am sure are in more pain and carry much more anxiety then your Son at this time. And you and your wife are living in HELL.

My daughter never did drugs but lived in sin with her boyfriend, I know this is not as bad in some peoples eyes, and I am sure you would trade her sin anyday. But the point is mortal sin is death of the soul. And not matter what it is, it separates us from God.

Go to the Blessed Mother, Tell your wife to also. The Blessed Mother loves him so much and she will go with you to her Son and help you. I will also pray for you. I know what this can be like. Stick with the Blessed Mother and Jesus help is on the way.
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It’s an example of what our family is currently going through. Christine seemed to question whether I had any emotional stake in answering the question, so I was explaining why I did.
 
spockrates said:
Rinnie:

My turn to ask you to answer a question I’ve asked several times in different ways: Is the act of forgiveness an act of love, or is forgiving *not *an example of loving?

🤷
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It depends Spock It can be either. You can forgive someone because you love them, but you can also not love them and forgive them also.

I mean we are to LOVE everyone, but you and I both know there are many ways of loving someone.

But for you to say to me I did not love my daughter for not accepting her sin is not true nor fair.

I love my daughter very much but would not accept her sin. But when she went repented her sin to God and was forgiven her sin by God thats what counted.

I always forgave her in my heart, but my forgivness for hurting me did not stop the sin. Do you see what I am saying. She had to repent and ask God to forgive her sin, She did not have to ask me for forgivenss I already forgave her, But never accepted her sin. Does that make sense to you?

WHat I am saying is sometimes no matter how much we love and forgive someone their sin must be STOPPED before forgivenss can be granted.\

If I said I love and forgive you but she continued to live that way is her sin forgiven? No it is not. See what I am saying.

So no matter how much I loved her, and my Love for her forgave her for hurting me, My Love and forgiveness cannot over power the danger of that sin. My love and forgivness could not fix it, She had to.
 
spockrates said:
It’s an example of what our family is currently going through. Christine seemed to question whether I had any emotional stake in answering the question, so I was explaining why I did.
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You are in my prayers for sure. It is SOOOOOOOOOO hard today to raise kids.

I got married young 19 and had 2 kids by 25. My oldest is 28 and youngest is 25. My oldest is very level headed back in Church and never did drugs. Thank God. But 90% of her friends did,

My Son only drinks. Because thank God he never go into them and worked from the time he was 17 and HAD to get DRUG TESTED, again Thank God. That keeps him on the straight and narrow.

Now he wants to get his CDL he is a diesel Mechanic and can make more money an hour if he gets them. That means he can’t drink and drive really at all. I think like over one beer he is considered drunk:eek::clapping::rotfl: Gpd forgive me but I think this is great!!

It keeps him out of the bars and out of trouble.😛

What I would do with your son is what you are doing. He is GOING to HATE YOU, its okay. Let him. Treat him like a prisoner if you have to. You do what you need to do. Be strict and don’t give an inch.

My Son at 17 started to go astray. Thats when I made he get a Job. ALso if he is younger try sending him to a bro or sis who has kids for the summer if possible. When he gets back and you don’t let him do anything his friends will drop him like a hot potato. Trust me been THERE, Got the T-Shirt all ten yards.
 
By the Way Mr Spock this is what my Mother told me.

You are his PARENT not his friend. Me and my husband were always SO close with our kids. We were like friends until they needed a Parent, then you become the mean one.

I know you want to hug him and tell him you love him, but it won’t work now. If you say NO you are hated. So hang in there. He is going to hate your guts. But its okay.

He does not WANT to hear how much you love him, he WANTS to have fun and ruin his life.

I will never forget the day my son said I hate you, stay out of my business. He was about 15, then about 5 years later a 15 year old was in trouble and the words that came out of HIS mouth were Where are the Parents:eek:
 
rinnie said:
It depends Spock It can be either. You can forgive someone because you love them, but you can also not love them and forgive them also.

I mean we are to LOVE everyone, but you and I both know there are many ways of loving someone.

But for you to say to me I did not love my daughter for not accepting her sin is not true nor fair.

I love my daughter very much but would not accept her sin. But when she went repented her sin to God and was forgiven her sin by God thats what counted.

I always forgave her in my heart, but my forgivness for hurting me did not stop the sin. Do you see what I am saying. She had to repent and ask God to forgive her sin, She did not have to ask me for forgivenss I already forgave her, But never accepted her sin. Does that make sense to you?
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Not yet, but I’m willing to learn!

😃
WHat I am saying is sometimes no matter how much we love and forgive someone their sin must be STOPPED before forgivenss can be granted.\
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It sounds like you are saying that we forgive someone before she stops her sin, but we forgive her even more after she stops her sin. Am I hearing you correctly, now?
If I said I love and forgive you but she continued to live that way is her sin forgiven? No it is not. See what I am saying. …
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Yes, I think so. Let me tell you what I’m hearing, and then please explain if I’m misunderstanding: You always forgive your daughter in your heart (or mind) by (for example) not holding a grudge or desiring revenge. But you do not always forgive her by pardoning (or not holding her liable for) her sin. She must repent before you pardon, but you feel peace toward her even if she does not.

Are we seeing eye-to-eye (or hearing ear-to-ear) yet?

🙂
 
spockrates said:
Not yet, but I’m willing to learn!

😃

It sounds like you are saying that we forgive someone before she stops her sin, but we forgive her even more after she stops her sin. Am I hearing you correctly, now?

Yes, I think so. Let me tell you what I’m hearing, and then please explain if I’m misunderstanding: You always forgive your daughter in your heart (or mind) by (for example) not holding a grudge or desiring revenge. But you do not always forgive her by pardoning (or not holding her liable for) her sin. She must repent before you pardon, but you feel peace toward her even if she does not.

Are we seeing eye-to-eye (or hearing ear-to-ear) yet?

🙂
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In a way yes but yet I do not have the real Power to parden. See what I am saying.

It would be like one Mother saying I love you honey no matter what you do. SO DO I. But then the Mother refusing to confront the daughter for her sin, because she loves her too much to have her get mad or disagree with her. See what I am saying,

I told my daughter it doesn’t MATTER what I think its what God thinks and teaches that counts.

It would be like lets say my daughter refuses to repent and quit the sin and she does in a state of Mortal Sin:eek: Now what?

While I agree we can only rely on God’s mercy if he going to give it to her or not? I BELIEVE he would, but I have no right to speak for God its his call.

But on the same token am I not responsible for taking a part in the sin if I just let it Go? Whats God’s words to me going to be? Ah you love your kid so much you just let her sin all she wants?:eek: OR is he going to say what did you teach in my name. Did you obey my commandments? DId you stand up for my law and teach her to repent and get it right?

So would I not be saying actually God I loved her more then you I guess, :eek: Or should I say No God I did not accept this sin, and took the chance of loving you more then myself and letting her hate me and maybe never talk to me again, But I TRUSTED YOU GOD!!

See God puts us ALL here to speak in his name. But in different ways. BUt getting back to the point of the post rather you love someone or not you must repent when you sin and quit the sin, And the repenting (to me being NOT ONLY sorry but Quitting the sin is repenting).

See she never had to come back after she got it right and say Mom forgive me for the hell I put your through. That unconditional love. She had to say nothing and she knows she was forgiving. But she did have to go to Father and confess that sin, repent, get married in the eyes of God and then she was forgiven by God. See what I am driving at.

God put me here sometimes to stand in for him. And unfortunatelly when you usually stand up for God and do his work you are hated in this world just like he was:(
 
spockrates said:
Not yet, but I’m willing to learn!

😃

It sounds like you are saying that we forgive someone before she stops her sin, but we forgive her even more after she stops her sin. Am I hearing you correctly, now?

Yes, I think so. Let me tell you what I’m hearing, and then please explain if I’m misunderstanding: You always forgive your daughter in your heart (or mind) by (for example) not holding a grudge or desiring revenge. But you do not always forgive her by pardoning (or not holding her liable for) her sin. She must repent before you pardon, but you feel peace toward her even if she does not.

Are we seeing eye-to-eye (or hearing ear-to-ear) yet?

🙂
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rinnie said:
In a way yes but yet I do not have the real Power to parden. See what I am saying…
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No. I don’t yet see what you are saying. You said that what I said was true in a way; in what way, exactly? Are you saying it is true that I should always forgive in my mind, and that it is true that I should not always forgive in my actions? Please give me a simple yes or no answer, if you are able.

🤷
 
spockrates said:
No. I don’t yet see what you are saying. You said that what I said was true in a way; in what way, exactly? Are you saying it is true that I should always forgive in my mind, and that it is true that I should not always forgive in my actions? Please give me a simple yes or no answer, if you are able.

🤷
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Sure lets use my daughter for an example. I always forgive her when she hurts me. She never even has to ask me. I forgive in my mind right away and my actions.

But to her sometimes she does not always see that. While I forgave her for what she did, I knew she was still not living the law of God.

So on the inside I loved her just as much as when she was not in a state of sin. And because of my love for her she was indeed forgiven.

But she had to make it right with GOD. So on the outside I could not say its okay because I love you and I forgive you. I had to say you must be forgiven by GOD. Now God says you must REPENT the sin and get absolution from the Priest when you are in a state of Mortal Sin. I could not give this absolution to her.

But until she got things right while I could forgive her I could not accept her sin. So on the Inside no matter how much I loved her on the outside things were strained between us.

Why? Simply because I would not ACCEPT her sin either. To love someone is unconditional. To forgive them has conditions. SHe had to be forgiven by God by confessing her sin. I would not accept her sin, so in a way you could say I would not forgive her UNTIL she repented her sin and got rid of it.

SO do you see how loving someone UNCONDTIIONAL does not MEAN you can forgive someone UNCONDITIONAL all the time. There are times forgiveness has to be conditional. This is a perfect example of one of them.

I could not forgive the sin she was in until she asked for forgiveness from God and was rid of the sin. It never changed my Love for her at all. But it did change our relationship for awhile because she wanted me to forgive her AND accept her sin. SO sometimes in order to fully forgive it means you must accept sin, I could not do that. So you could say she was not fully forgiven by me until she quit doing the sin.

Like you son. You cannot say I forgive you for taking drugs etc. because you don’t. You are angry and hurt and you cannot accept this sin. If you could then you could say its okay I will forgive you and accept what you are doing and then its over.

But you don’t forgive him at the moment and will not accept this behavior so there is problems now. Once he gets thing’s together and becomes the person God made him to be and rids himsefl of the sin completely you will completely forgive him of the sin and forget about it.

But for the moment no matter how much you love him, you cannot forgive him for this behavior because he needs to repent and be rid of the sin.

Make sense now?😃
 
spockrates said:
Rinnie:

My turn to ask you to answer a question I’ve asked several times in different ways: Is the act of forgiveness an act of love, or is forgiving *not *an example of loving?

🤷
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Now back to your question. Forgiving at this time is not an example of loving. WHY? SImply because the person has not repented and is asking for forgiveness. It is let me sin all I want and forgive me anyway. NO.

IF you do it is not a sign of Love.

Does it makes sense to you now why God demands repentance and confession of sins. You must not only be sorry you must quit the sin.

Do you see now why God can love you unconditional but his unconditional love still does not over power the sin you are doing?

Why?

Simple because you are destroying YOURSELF in the sin. God will not sit back and let the happen. He loves us also TOO much then to accept our sin.

Bottom line you have to be SORRY and willing to put a stop to the SIN before you can be pardoned for it.
 
rinnie said:
Sure lets use my daughter for an example. I always forgive her when she hurts me. She never even has to ask me. I forgive in my mind right away and my actions.

But to her sometimes she does not always see that. While I forgave her for what she did, I knew she was still not living the law of God.

So on the inside I loved her just as much as when she was not in a state of sin. And because of my love for her she was indeed forgiven.

But she had to make it right with GOD. So on the outside I could not say its okay because I love you and I forgive you. I had to say you must be forgiven by GOD. Now God says you must REPENT the sin and get absolution from the Priest when you are in a state of Mortal Sin. I could not give this absolution to her.

But until she got things right while I could forgive her I could not accept her sin. So on the Inside no matter how much I loved her on the outside things were strained between us.

Why? Simply because I would not ACCEPT her sin either. To love someone is unconditional. To forgive them has conditions. SHe had to be forgiven by God by confessing her sin. I would accept her sin, so in a way you could say forgive her UNTIL she repented her sin and got rid of it.

SO do you see how loving someone UNCONDTIIONAL does not MEAN you can forgive someone UNCONDITIONAL all the time. There are times forgiveness has to be conditional. This is a perfect example of one of them.

I could not forgive the sin she was in until she asked for forgiveness from God and was rid of the sin. It never changed my Love for her at all. But it did change our relationship for awhile because she wanted me to forgive her AND accept her sin. SO sometimes in order to fully forgive it means you must accept sin, I could not do that. So you could say she was not fully forgiven by me until she quit doing the sin.

Like you son. You cannot say I forgive you for taking drugs etc. because you don’t. You are angry and hurt and you cannot accept this sin. If you could then you could say its okay I will forgive you and accept what you are doing and then its over.

But you don’t forgive him at the moment and will not accept this behavior so there is problems now. Once he gets thing’s together and becomes the person God made him to be and rids himsefl of the sin completely you will completely forgive him of the sin and forget about it.

But for the moment no matter how much you love him, you cannot forgive him for this behavior because he needs to repent and be rid of the sin.

Make sense now?😃
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One thing you forgot to do was say yes or no.

:eek:

However, I think I understand. You are saying love is unconditional, but forgiveness is conditional. In other words, forgiveness is not love, because forgiveness is not unconditional. Is this true? (Please answer yes or no.)

🙂
 
spockrates said:
One thing you forgot to do was say yes or no.

:eek:

However, I think I understand. You are saying love is unconditional, but forgiveness is conditional. In other words, forgiveness is not love, because forgiveness is not unconditional. Is this true? (Please answer yes or no.)

🙂
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Yes you got it. Because God set it up that way.

How can you forgive someone if they are not sorry?:confused: See what I am saying.
 
rinnie said:
Yes you got it. Because God set it up that way.

How can you forgive someone if they are not sorry?:confused: See what I am saying.
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Yes. But please consider this: If Love (in all its forms) is always unconditional and Forgiveness (in all its forms) is always conditional, then it is impossible for Forgiveness to be a kind of Love. Don’t you agree?

In logic, it would be represented this way:

L = U
F = C
C is not = U
therefore
L is not = F

where
L is Love
F is Forgiveness
C is always conditional
and
U is always unconditional

So here is what I’m thinking: Either Forgiveness is not always conditional, or Love is not always unconditional. Are you thinking the same? (Please try to give me a yes or no answer.)

🙂
 
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