Will you forgive me for asking?

[spockrates]

Displayed visually in a Venn diagram, my idea would look like this:

http://www.tempuspayment.com/tests/caf/venn2circinter.jpg

Here, Love is a pink circle that intersects Forgiveness, which is a blue circle. Where the two circles intersect is purple, and represents that which is both Love and Forgiveness. That which is pink is Love that is not Forgiveness, and that which is blue is Forgiveness that is not Love. The diagram represents how some Love is Forgiveness, but not all Love is forgiveness. Do you see what I’m thinking?

 

[rinnie]

Yes. But please consider this: If Love (in all its forms) is always unconditional and Forgiveness (in all its forms) is always conditional, then it is impossible for Forgiveness to be a kind of Love. Don’t you agree?

In logic, it would be represented this way:

L = U
F = C
C is not = U
therefore
L is not = F

where
L is Love
F is Forgiveness
C is always conditional
and
U is always unconditional

So here is what I’m thinking: Either Forgiveness is not always conditional, or Love is not always unconditional. Are you thinking the same? (Please try to give me a yes or no answer.)

:nope:

 

[spockrates]

:nope:

OK, thanks for the No answer!



So since Love is *always *unconditional, and Forgiveness is *always *conditional, that means that Love is *never *conditional and Forgiveness is *never *unconditional. The conclusion then is that Forgiveness cannot possibly be Love. If we say Love is never conditional and forgiveness is never unconditional, then this is the only possibility left to us!



However, I’m not yet convinced that this conclusion is true. Let me explain why: You probably heard at Mass, Rinnie that now is the time of year we think about Saint Peter and Saint Paul the Apostles, and Paul had this to say about Love:

Love … is not easily angered, [and] it keeps no record of wrongs.

(1 Corinthians 13:4-5)

My logical ears tell me that this sounds to me like a description of Forgiveness, so Paul is saying Love is Forgiveness. Do your wise eyes see that this is true, too?

 

[PbloPicasso]

Yes. But please consider this: If Love (in all its forms) is always unconditional and Forgiveness (in all its forms) is always conditional, then it is impossible for Forgiveness to be a kind of Love. Don’t you agree?

In logic, it would be represented this way:
L = U
F = C
C is not = U
therefore
L is not = F

where
L is Love
F is Forgiveness
C is always conditional
and
U is always unconditionalSo here is what I’m thinking: Either Forgiveness is not always conditional, or Love is not always unconditional. Are you thinking the same? (Please try to give me a yes or no answer.)

What happens when we take the integral between 0 and infinity?

 

[spockrates]

What happens when we take the integral between 0 and infinity?

Yes, that is what I’m asking Rinnie!



My thought is that it’s not always, nor never, but sometimes. Either Love is sometimes conditional, or Forgiveness is sometimes unconditional, or both.



What do you think, PP?

 

[rinnie]

OK, thanks for the No answer!



So since Love is *always *unconditional, and Forgiveness is *always *conditional, that means that Love is *never *conditional and Forgiveness is *never *unconditional. The conclusion then is that Forgiveness cannot possibly be Love. If we say Love is never conditional and forgiveness is never unconditional, then this is the only possibility left to us!



However, I’m not yet convinced that this conclusion is true. Let me explain why: You probably heard at Mass, Rinnie that now is the time of year we think about Saint Peter and Saint Paul the Apostles, and Paul had this to say about Love:

Love … is not easily angered, [and] it keeps no record of wrongs.

(1 Corinthians 13:4-5)

My logical ears tell me that this sounds to me like a description of Forgiveness, so Paul is saying Love is Forgiveness. Do your wise eyes see that this is true, too?

No Mr Spock you do not quite understand, what ST Paul said is it does not Brood over wrongdoing but rejoices over the truth. So that means be happy and rejoice when someone repents and gets back into the grace of God. But you are to love them even if they have not repented yet do you not agree?

Now how do you get not brooding over a wrong doing making forgiveness not being a conditional act?

Love is something you have no control over. It is a given grace that holds no conditions. If you hurt me I can still fill deep love for you but still fill the hurt that you did to me in my heart. And if you continue to hurt people and sin you still need to be forgiven for that sin and quit that sin. My Love for you has nothing to do with forgiving you if you refuse to repent and get out of sin.

Like I stated before how I can not forgive you if you don’t want to be forgiven. How can I grant forgiveness to you if you don’t want to be forgiven? How can a Priest grant you absolution if you refuse to quit the sin?

All I can do is as ST Paul says wait until you repent and ask for forgiveness Grant it, and move on and forget the past and move on to the present.

But when forgiveness is needed the act of repententing is always needed.

If we do not have to repent and ask to be forgiven why is it necessary for us to repent at all then? If repentance is some form is not needed, then why did Adam and Eve get thrown out of the Garden? Was Gods love not enough then?

Do you get my point? Love does not take away someones need to repent. You can love and forgive them all you want but forgivness has a condition. The simple condition is Repentance.

Love on the other hand has NO CONDITIONS. It is something inside of you that you don’t even have control over. You see it all the time girl loves a boy but the boy is abusive and the girl may always love him in her heart but she cannot take the abuse. She can choose to stay away but the love if it is true will always remain.

Bottom line you can forgive or not forgive, but you cannot unlove.

Bottom line you can say I will forgive you if you … I will not forgive you if you do not…

But you cannot say I will LOVE you if you…or I will not LOVE you if you do not… You either feel love or you do not. You have no choice in what you heart feels and what your feelings are. You cannot control Love. You can control forgiveness, You can choose to hold a grudge and not grant forgiveness and still love someone deeply. You see it in close family’s everyday. Children not talking to the parents or vice-versa. Does the holding the grudge mean there is no Deep Love?

 

[spockrates]

No Mr Spock you do not quite understand, what ST Paul said is it does not Brood over wrongdoing but rejoices over the truth. So that means be happy and rejoice when someone repents and gets back into the grace of God. But you are to love them even if they have not repented yet do you not agree?

True, Rinnie, but he also said what I quoted. Here is more of the passage:

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails.

(1 Corinthians 13)

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2013&version=NIV1984

So these are some aspects of Love. I’m thinking that the words, “it is not easily angered” and “it keeps no record of wrongs” are describing the aspects of Love that we call Forgiveness. For example, if I don’t easily hold a grudge, then I’m not easily angered, and if I keep no record of wrongs, then I’m not holding a person who repents liable for her sins against me. Please tell me why you don’t agree.

 

[spockrates]

… Now how do you get not brooding over a wrong doing making forgiveness not being a conditional act?

Love is something you have no control over. It is a given grace that holds no conditions. If you hurt me I can still fill deep love for you but still fill the hurt that you did to me in my heart. And if you continue to hurt people and sin you still need to be forgiven for that sin and quit that sin. My Love for you has nothing to do with forgiving you if you refuse to repent and get out of sin.

Like I stated before how I can not forgive you if you don’t want to be forgiven. How can I grant forgiveness to you if you don’t want to be forgiven? How can a Priest grant you absolution if you refuse to quit the sin?

All I can do is as ST Paul says wait until you repent and ask for forgiveness Grant it, and move on and forget the past and move on to the present.

But when forgiveness is needed the act of repententing is always needed.

If we do not have to repent and ask to be forgiven why is it necessary for us to repent at all then? If repentance is some form is not needed, then why did Adam and Eve get thrown out of the Garden? Was Gods love not enough then?

Do you get my point? Love does not take away someones need to repent. You can love and forgive them all you want but forgivness has a condition. The simple condition is Repentance.

Love on the other hand has NO CONDITIONS. It is something inside of you that you don’t even have control over. You see it all the time girl loves a boy but the boy is abusive and the girl may always love him in her heart but she cannot take the abuse. She can choose to stay away but the love if it is true will always remain.

Bottom line you can forgive or not forgive, but you cannot unlove.

Bottom line you can say I will forgive you if you … I will not forgive you if you do not…

But you cannot say I will LOVE you if you…or I will not LOVE you if you do not… You either feel love or you do not. You have no choice in what you heart feels and what your feelings are. You cannot control Love. You can control forgiveness, You can choose to hold a grudge and not grant forgiveness and still love someone deeply. You see it in close family’s everyday. Children not talking to the parents or vice-versa. Does the holding the grudge mean there is no Deep Love?

Rinnie:

I think we are close to agreeing with one another.



Let’s see if an example will help us reach an agreement. Consider my eldest son: I forgive him UNCONDITIONALLY by not holding a grudge against him (which is a way of not being easily angered by his actions). I am respectful and kind to him, even though he is not respectful and kind to me.

I am waiting for him to repent before I forgive him CONDITIONALLY by ceasing to keep a record of his wrongs. Since he refuses to stop drinking and using drugs, and refuses to see a counselor or priest, I hold him accountable for (or keep a record of) these sins. Until he repents, he is not allowed to use the computer, or DVD player, or stereo, or cell phone, or car, and he will have to leave home when he is 18, and he will get no financial assistance from us to attend a college or university.

So I’m thinking that this is loving my son unconditionally, AND loving him conditionally. I’m loving him unconditionally by not being easily angered. I’m loving him conditionally by waiting for him to meet the conditions before I stop keeping a record of his wrongs.

The inference: Forgiveness is a kind of Love that is sometimes unconditional and sometimes conditional. One might say Forgiveness is loving unconditionally in thought and words, but loving conditionally in action. I can love unconditionally in thought and words, even if the one forgiven does not accept my forgiveness. I can forgive conditionally in action only (as we agree) if the person repents and accepts my forgiveness.

Are we seeing eye to pointy ear, yet?

 

[spockrates]

What happens when we take the integral between 0 and infinity?

I should say again that I think you are onto something, Picasso.



These Venn Diagrams might illustrate what I’m thinking. It seems to me that Rinnie is trying to convey this:

http://www.socraticaddict.org/img/venn_forgiveness3c.jpg

For she is saying that Love is something one always feels unconditionally, but Forgiveness is something one does only conditionally. If what she says is true, then the circle of Love never overlaps the circle of Forgiveness. One can never love someone by forgiving her, because forgiveness is always conditional act, and never an unconditional emotion.

But if we put Love (as you suggest) on the integral somewhere between never and always, then this would be the case:

http://www.socraticaddict.org/img/venn_forgiveness2b.jpg

Here we are saying that Love is something one sometimes feels unconditionally, and sometimes does conditionally. Love becomes more than a feeling, and so the circles now overlap. One can now love someone by forgiving her, because Love is sometimes conditional, as is the case when Love is an act of Forgiveness.

 

[rinnie]

True, Rinnie, but he also said what I quoted. Here is more of the passage:

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails.

(1 Corinthians 13)

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2013&version=NIV1984

So these are some aspects of Love. I’m thinking that the words, “it is not easily angered” and “it keeps no record of wrongs” are describing the aspects of Love that we call Forgiveness. For example, if I don’t easily hold a grudge, then I’m not easily angered, and if I keep no record of wrongs, then I’m not holding a person who repents liable for her sins against me. Please tell me why you don’t agree.

What we disagree on is you are asking me if FORGIVENESS is unconditional and I am saying No. Then you are asking if Love in Comditional and I am sayimg NO.

Love is Unconditional Forgiveness is conditional.

That was your question. You did not ask if you could love someone and forgiven them at the same time. The answer to that is yes. But that still does not make the love conditional.

Rather you forgive or you do not forgive it has nothing to do with unconditional Love.

If you forgive you still are DOING something you are choosing to FORGIVE. When you love it is not DOING something it is on its own. It is an emotion in your heart you cannot control. You can say I do not forigve you, or you can say I do forgive you.

But you cannot control what your heart feels about love. Is is there. It cannot be stopped.

 

[rinnie]

I should say again that I think you are onto something, Picasso.



These Venn Diagrams might illustrate what I’m thinking. It seems to me that Rinnie is trying to convey this:

http://www.socraticaddict.org/img/venn_forgiveness3c.jpg

For she is saying that Love is something one always feels unconditionally, but Forgiveness is something one does only conditionally. If what she says is true, then the circle of Love never overlaps the circle of Forgiveness. One can never love someone by forgiving her, because forgiveness is always conditional act, and never an unconditional emotion.

But if we put Love (as you suggest) on the integral somewhere between never and always, then this would be the case:

http://www.socraticaddict.org/img/venn_forgiveness2b.jpg

Here we are saying that Love is something one sometimes feels unconditionally, and sometimes does conditionally. Love becomes more than a feeling, and so the circles now overlap. One can now love someone by forgiving her, because Love is sometimes conditional, as is the case when Love is an act of Forgiveness.

No I do not agree. Rather you forgive or hold a grude it does not change the emotion of loving someone. As I stated before you could love them with all your heart and soul and still hold a grudge. Does that mean in your heart you still do not have that deep LOVE? NO.

But you either love or you don’t. And you either forgive or you don’t. Forgiveness is a choice Love is an inner emotion you have no control over. Forgivenss you do control. Its up to you.

 

[rinnie]

Okay Mr Spock here it is, a true story.

My Dad and his Brother sent money home when they were in the Military for the Old Man to buy the Farm they were living in.

The Old Man willed the whole farm to my Dad and his Bro.

To make a long story short there were 13 other bros and sis’s. All the old man asked was if one of the kids needed a place to stay to give them a acre or so. They both agreed.

The one sisters husband took out the old man and go him drunk and got him to change the will.

My Dad and his bro got screwed out of MILLIONS. My dad was so hurt and could not get over his hurt and anger. He tried so hard,

He went to Father and Father said can you at least pray for the other bros and sis, He said yes.

It took him years and alot of Grace to get over the hurt and anger and get over the resentment. But it never changed the love he carried in his heart for them.

It took alot of prayer and a act of Grace from God to grant him the peace that he received with the forgiveness he gave.

He forgave them from the get go because he forgave everyone. But he really did not fully forgive until he was granted the peace and end of resemtment he got from the grace of God.

But he had to work for it. He had to Pray for years to rid himself of the anger and hurt. Do you see what I am saying.

What hurt him most was that he LOVED them so much even though they screwed him over so bad, Sometimes its easier to forgive then to get over the hurt someone so much that has hurt you. Because you contol the forgiveness but not the love you have for them.

 

[spockrates]

What we disagree on is you are asking me if FORGIVENESS is unconditional and I am saying No. Then you are asking if Love in Comditional and I am sayimg NO.

Love is Unconditional Forgiveness is conditional.

That was your question. You did not ask if you could love someone and forgiven them at the same time. The answer to that is yes. But that still does not make the love conditional.

Rather you forgive or you do not forgive it has nothing to do with unconditional Love.

If you forgive you still are DOING something you are choosing to FORGIVE. When you love it is not DOING something it is on its own. It is an emotion in your heart you cannot control. You can say I do not forigve you, or you can say I do forgive you.

But you cannot control what your heart feels about love. Is is there. It cannot be stopped.

Yes, I hear what you are saying, even though we don’t yet see ear to ear!



This Venn Diagram accurately shows your opinion, doesn’t it?

http://www.socraticaddict.org/img/venn_forgiveness3c.jpg

 

[spockrates]

No I do not agree. Rather you forgive or hold a grude it does not change the emotion of loving someone. As I stated before you could love them with all your heart and soul and still hold a grudge. Does that mean in your heart you still do not have that deep LOVE? NO.

But you either love or you don’t. And you either forgive or you don’t. Forgiveness is a choice Love is an inner emotion you have no control over. Forgivenss you do control. Its up to you.

The question, then that I must answer is this: Is Rinnie right? Is Love only a feeling, as s/he says? or is it a choice? or is it both? or is it neither? How do I determine whether what you say is true, my new friend?

 

[PbloPicasso]

Okay Mr Spock here it is, a true story.

My Dad and his Brother sent money home when they were in the Military for the Old Man to buy the Farm they were living in.

The Old Man willed the whole farm to my Dad and his Bro.

To make a long story short there were 13 other bros and sis’s. All the old man asked was if one of the kids needed a place to stay to give them a acre or so. They both agreed.

The one sisters husband took out the old man and go him drunk and got him to change the will.

My Dad and his bro got screwed out of MILLIONS. My dad was so hurt and could not get over his hurt and anger. He tried so hard,

He went to Father and Father said can you at least pray for the other bros and sis, He said yes.

It took him years and alot of Grace to get over the hurt and anger and get over the resentment. But it never changed the love he carried in his heart for them.

It took alot of prayer and a act of Grace from God to grant him the peace that he received with the forgiveness he gave.

He forgave them from the get go because he forgave everyone. But he really did not fully forgive until he was granted the peace and end of resemtment he got from the grace of God.

But he had to work for it. He had to Pray for years to rid himself of the anger and hurt. Do you see what I am saying.

What hurt him most was that he LOVED them so much even though they screwed him over so bad, Sometimes its easier to forgive then to get over the hurt someone so much that has hurt you. Because you contol the forgiveness but not the love you have for them.

I know the feeling. Been there, got the brother living off the inheritance of the act. I forgave, but the hurt continues. I actually feel sorry for him now. Mom set it up that way. She always told my older brother and me that one day our younger brother will have the last laugh. I think this is what she meant. Ironically, he’s a blundering fool and has been unemployed and in trouble with the law ever since.

 

[spockrates]

I know the feeling. Been there, got the brother living off the inheritance of the act. I forgave, but the hurt continues. I actually feel sorry for him now. Mom set it up that way. She always told my older brother and me that one day our younger brother will have the last laugh. I think this is what she meant. Ironically, he’s a blundering fool and has been unemployed and in trouble with the law ever since.

Can’t imagine what that would be like, Picasso. So please tell me: How did you forgive him? Did you stop feeling angry? Did you tell him you forgave him? Did you take steps to restore your relationship with him?

 

[spockrates]

… It took him years and alot of Grace to get over the hurt and anger and get over the resentment. But it never changed the love he carried in his heart for them.

It took alot of prayer and a act of Grace from God to grant him the peace that he received with the forgiveness he gave.

He forgave them from the get go because he forgave everyone. But he really did not fully forgive until he was granted the peace and end of resemtment he got from the grace of God.

But he had to work for it. He had to Pray for years to rid himself of the anger and hurt. Do you see what I am saying.

What hurt him most was that he LOVED them so much even though they screwed him over so bad, Sometimes its easier to forgive then to get over the hurt someone so much that has hurt you. Because you contol the forgiveness but not the love you have for them.

Yes, I think I can see continuing to feel love for someone who is family and who you used to love. But what about someone you don’t know, and have never met? What if you meet someone for the first time and that person intends to harm you, or even kill you, such as a mugger, or a rapist, or a member of a street gang? In that moment, when you first meet, would you feel love for the one trying to bring your life to a swift end, or would you feel something else for the assailant?



For me, I might feel fear, rather than love. If he were trying to harm someone I loved, I’d feel anger rather than compassion for him. Perhaps I could later feel love, but not at the moment he meant to do me, or those I loved, harm. So I would not unconditionally feel love for him, instead I’d feel fear or anger (which is closer to feeling hatred than feeling love). What do you think?

 

[HelenRose]

I suppose the only real understanding of the meaning of forgiveness comes when you have seriously harmed someone and have been forgiven by that person.

It is then that the concept ceases to be an abstract theory.

 

[PbloPicasso]

Can’t imagine what that would be like, Picasso. So please tell me: How did you forgive him? Did you stop feeling angry? Did you tell him you forgave him? Did you take steps to restore your relationship with him?

It took me years to mean forgiving. HOwever I stopped talking to him for a long time. But after our dads died, he was legally adopted by a step father, we realized we only had each other left, other than my family. Somehow, through lots of therapy, because it tore me apart inside as a sign of mom abandoning me again, disowning me. My older brother took his life right after finding out. We just had our first baby. And she came down with cancer and milked it like she was trying to drain me financially with false deathbeds way over exaggerated. Mom was very hateful, and known for it.

It took becoming Catholic again to forgive her. Much more too it.

 

[spockrates]

I suppose the only real understanding of the meaning of forgiveness comes when you have seriously harmed someone and have been forgiven by that person.

It is then that the concept ceases to be an abstract theory.

Thank you, Helen. If you speak from experience, then please tell me what your experience taught you about the true nature of Forgiveness.