Will you forgive me for asking?

[spockrates]

It took me years to mean forgiving. HOwever I stopped talking to him for a long time. But after our dads died, he was legally adopted by a step father, we realized we only had each other left, other than my family. Somehow, through lots of therapy, because it tore me apart inside as a sign of mom abandoning me again, disowning me. My older brother took his life right after finding out. We just had our first baby. And she came down with cancer and milked it like she was trying to drain me financially with false deathbeds way over exaggerated. Mom was very hateful, and known for it.

It took becoming Catholic again to forgive her. Much more too it.

I find it fascinating that I learn from the example of everyone–good or bad. Your mother, for example showed the truth by way of contrast with the words of God,

“No one will be able to stand up against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

(Joshua 1:5)

and those echoed by David, my favorite Old Testament author:

Those who know your name will trust in you, for you, LORD, have never forsaken those who seek you.

(Psalms 9:10)

Though my father and mother forsake me, the LORD will receive me.

(Psalms 27:10)

And I have to wonder, Picasso if that is the goal of Forgiveness, to never leave nor forsake the one forgiven. Sounds like forsaking was what your mother was about, which is a strong contrast to forgiving. I guess the choice for you (and also for me) is between being a forsaker and being a forgiver. Don’t you think?

 

[rinnie]

I know the feeling. Been there, got the brother living off the inheritance of the act. I forgave, but the hurt continues. I actually feel sorry for him now. Mom set it up that way. She always told my older brother and me that one day our younger brother will have the last laugh. I think this is what she meant. Ironically, he’s a blundering fool and has been unemployed and in trouble with the law ever since.

I know what you are saying. Believe it or not they are all broke today. Papa died owning 4 houses, left my Mom with a quite confortable pension, She has to pay a health care supplement of 35.00 every 3 months and has wonderful coverage.

She pays about 8 dollars for her meds,

I wish I could say the hurt will end but it probally never will. But do what Papa did. He went to Church every single day, he served mass, but the most important thing is he prayed for them. By praying for them he received peace in his heart.

You won’t believe this but ironically the year before he died he looked over and they put a mini mall there. He said that property is cursed.

You will not believe me but the day Papa died the next week it closed down. It has been closed ever since, I guess Papa and God are up in heaven still trying to get things straightened out.

 

[rinnie]

Yes, I think I can see continuing to feel love for someone who is family and who you used to love. But what about someone you don’t know, and have never met? What if you meet someone for the first time and that person intends to harm you, or even kill you, such as a mugger, or a rapist, or a member of a street gang? In that moment, when you first meet, would you feel love for the one trying to bring your life to a swift end, or would you feel something else for the assailant?



For me, I might feel fear, rather than love. If he were trying to harm someone I loved, I’d feel anger rather than compassion for him. Perhaps I could later feel love, but not at the moment he meant to do me, or those I loved, harm. So I would not unconditionally feel love for him, instead I’d feel fear or anger (which is closer to feeling hatred than feeling love). What do you think?

I don’t think we can or have to feel love for evil or truly evil people. I mean God never told us we were to love the devil. He told us to reject him and all of his empty promises.

And unfortunately when it comes to really true evil people I think God understands this.

Because if you read the bible when the people were rejecting Christ he told them that their Father was the devil and they would never understand nor believe in him because they were not of him.

While we are to forgive I believe if we cannot feel love in our heart God understands completely.

Like Papa he felt true unconditional love for his brothers and sisters. But it was their greed he hated. And I think God hated it to, I am sure if it took pure forgiveness for them to enter heaven and If it HAD to come from Papa they are IN!!

That is just how he was. But like my friend here mentioned the greed and hurt is hard to get over. I don’t think you even really do. Like any physical hurt the scars are always there.

But I asked him one day how he could finally forgive. He said that he couldn’t carry the burden of not forgiving. He said when you carry a grudge it is like carrying a 100 pound sack of potatoes on your back, Its too hard to carry. When you forgive you are not giving them the gift you are actually giving yourself and your family the gift. Because when you carry all the anger and hate it hurt the ones you love not the ones who hurt you. He said they don’t care they are happy and moved on with their lives.

He was never close with them again, but when their name was mentioned he never mentioned the money again he just said GOD BLESS THEM. Then he said let God sort it out. Then he gained a peace that was amazing. And he gained more happiness then they ever experienced. They ended up jealous of him.

 

[rinnie]

It took me years to mean forgiving. HOwever I stopped talking to him for a long time. But after our dads died, he was legally adopted by a step father, we realized we only had each other left, other than my family. Somehow, through lots of therapy, because it tore me apart inside as a sign of mom abandoning me again, disowning me. My older brother took his life right after finding out. We just had our first baby. And she came down with cancer and milked it like she was trying to drain me financially with false deathbeds way over exaggerated. Mom was very hateful, and known for it.

It took becoming Catholic again to forgive her. Much more too it.

Isn’t it funny how you got over it by the Grace of God. Just like my Dad you somehow survived. My Dads other brother never got over it. He drank himself to death. He could not accept what they did to him.

What you have to look forward to is what Papa told me. He said this life is short but the next life is where you will get your reward. He said this is not our world anymore then it was Jesus.

He always told me Christ was perfect and they Crucified him, what do you think they will do to you. He said when we get screwed over, and cheated to Rejoice HE DID!!

He said then you know that we are the chosen People:shrug: He said because we are also not of this world we are of the next.

 

[spockrates]

I don’t think we can or have to feel love for evil or truly evil people. I mean God never told us we were to love the devil. He told us to reject him and all of his empty promises.

And unfortunately when it comes to really true evil people I think God understands this.

Because if you read the bible when the people were rejecting Christ he told them that their Father was the devil and they would never understand nor believe in him because they were not of him.

While we are to forgive I believe if we cannot feel love in our heart God understands completely.

Agreed. Jesus did tell the religious leaders who sought to kill him that their true father was not God but the devil, for they sought to do Satan’s will.



But I wonder if telling them the truth was the most loving thing He could do for them? I mean, if they were deceived into thinking they were doing what God wanted, would it not be love to reveal the truth to them?

Regarding God expecting us to not love our enemies who are evil, I wonder if this is true. Please tell me, Rinnnie what Jesus meant by saying this:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies… ."

(Matthew 5:43-44)

What did He mean by saying, “love your enemies”?

 

[spockrates]

… Like Papa he felt true unconditional love for his brothers and sisters. But it was their greed he hated. And I think God hated it to, I am sure if it took pure forgiveness for them to enter heaven and If it HAD to come from Papa they are IN!!

That is just how he was. But like my friend here mentioned the greed and hurt is hard to get over. I don’t think you even really do. Like any physical hurt the scars are always there.

But I asked him one day how he could finally forgive. He said that he couldn’t carry the burden of not forgiving. He said when you carry a grudge it is like carrying a 100 pound sack of potatoes on your back, Its too hard to carry. When you forgive you are not giving them the gift you are actually giving yourself and your family the gift. Because when you carry all the anger and hate it hurt the ones you love not the ones who hurt you. He said they don’t care they are happy and moved on with their lives.

He was never close with them again, but when their name was mentioned he never mentioned the money again he just said GOD BLESS THEM. Then he said let God sort it out. Then he gained a peace that was amazing. And he gained more happiness then they ever experienced. They ended up jealous of him.

Sounds like your papa really learned to live Jesus’ words:

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

(Matthew 11:28-30)

I guess you and I should both trust Jesus to not only show us the truth about how to forgive, but also give us the power to forgive! Sounds like that is exactly what your papa did.

 

[rinnie]

Sounds like your papa really learned to live Jesus’ words:

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

(Matthew 11:28-30)

I guess you and I should both trust Jesus to not only show us the truth about how to forgive, but also give us the power to forgive! Sounds like that is exactly what your papa did.

Good point my friend! But even if we forgive God actually put condions on us also. It is an act and sometimes as the other poster has agreed its hard.

So our conditions on us is we must pray for that Grace all the time. Its hard to just forgive.

But Love isn’t something we have to do, and is easy because its unconditional. We were as they say just wired that way.

Like when you first looked into the eyes of your baby when it was born. You think HOW can I LOVE this baby SO MUCH. And you only knew him or her for like ONE SECOND.

 

[spockrates]

Good point my friend! But even if we forgive God actually put condions on us also. It is an act and sometimes as the other poster has agreed its hard.

So our conditions on us is we must pray for that Grace all the time. Its hard to just forgive.

But Love isn’t something we have to do, and is easy because its unconditional. We were as they say just wired that way.

Like when you first looked into the eyes of your baby when it was born. You think HOW can I LOVE this baby SO MUCH. And you only knew him or her for like ONE SECOND.

Yes, and, as you said that emotion of love is quite different from what we feel for enemies who are not innocent, but evil and seek to do us harm. So please tell me, what did Jesus mean when He said this?

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies… ."

(Matthew 5:43-44)

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:43-44&version=NIV1984

Was He speaking of *feeling *something for them, or *doing *something for them?

 

[rinnie]

Agreed. Jesus did tell the religious leaders who sought to kill him that their true father was not God but the devil, for they sought to do Satan’s will.



But I wonder if telling them the truth was the most loving thing He could do for them? I mean, if they were deceived into thinking they were doing what God wanted, would it not be love to reveal the truth to them?

Regarding God expecting us to not love our enemies who are evil, I wonder if this is true. Please tell me, Rinnnie what Jesus meant by saying this:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies… ."

(Matthew 5:43-44)

What did He mean by saying, “love your enemies”?

Well sure but just because someone is your enemy does not make them evil. But you can tell evil People by their works and you do not have to be around them nor their evil works.

But like the devil am I taught to love him? NOPE!! And he is indeed my enemy!!

 

[rinnie]

Yes, and, as you said that emotion of love is quite different from what we feel for enemies who are not innocent, but evil and seek to do us harm. So please tell me, what did Jesus mean when He said this?

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies… ."

(Matthew 5:43-44)

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:43-44&version=NIV1984

Was He speaking of *feeling *something for them, or *doing *something for them?

Actually IMO he was doing something for us. Because when you carry love in your heart for even people who hate you, you gain the gift of Peace.

 

[spockrates]

Actually IMO he was doing something for us. Because when you carry love in your heart for even people who hate you, you gain the gift of Peace.

Agreed! And when Jesus said this,

“My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command.”

(John 15:12-14)

was He saying this greatest Love is something He *felt *for you and me, or something He *did *for you and me?

 

[rinnie]

Agreed! And when Jesus said this,

“My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command.”

(John 15:12-14)

was He saying this greatest Love is something He *felt *for you and me, or something He *did *for you and me?

Both. You have to remember God became Man for our sake not his. He died for our sins not because he had to. He died for us because that was the best way he could relate HUMAN LOVE.

What other way could anyone show a greater Love then to die for them? See what I mean. No One could top christ.

But he did it that way because he had to relate to us in a human way to understand. The divine Love we do not understand like we understand Human love.

Hey buddy got to roll. I am beginning a vacation. I am off starting now and have a HUGE Family wedding tommorow and tons of things planned for the 4th.

Catch you next week sometime. All of you have a wonderful and blessed 4th. Be careful you are all in my prayers.

 

[spockrates]

Both. You have to remember God became Man for our sake not his. He died for our sins not because he had to. He died for us because that was the best way he could relate HUMAN LOVE.

What other way could anyone show a greater Love then to die for them? See what I mean. No One could top christ.

But he did it that way because he had to relate to us in a human way to understand. The divine Love we do not understand like we understand Human love.

Hey buddy got to roll. I am beginning a vacation. I am off starting now and have a HUGE Family wedding tommorow and tons of things planned for the 4th.

Catch you next week sometime. All of you have a wonderful and blessed 4th. Be careful you are all in my prayers.

OK, good talking with you! Glad to see we agree that love is not only an emotion, but is also an action, and the act of forgiving is an act of love. Guess that means that Love is sometimes conditional, because Forgiveness is sometimes conditional.



Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

 

[spockrates]

SPOCKRATES: (Approaching the end of a dark path through a forest that opens into a clearing well lit by a full moon.) What’s that I hear? Sounds like my beautiful virtue Peace laughing! But who is she with who gives her such joyful company?

FORGIVING PEACE (ONE OF THE TWIN SISTER VIRTUES OF FORGIVENESS): Spockrates, is that you hiding in the dark woods? Don’t be shy! Come out into the light of the clearing! I have someone I want you to meet.

SPOCK: (Listening to the virtue Peace laughing, and a familiar, yet mischievous laugh of a man who is with her.) Why I—I don’t believe my pointy ears! Why, that’s my hated enemy Unrepentance having a good time with my beloved Peace! How dare him!

FORGIVING PARDON (THE SECOND TWIN SISTER VIRTUE OF FORGIVENESS): Yes, how dare him!

PITY (OR MERCY, ANOTHER SISTER OF THE TWINS): And how dare her!

SPOCK: (Startled, he turns around to see his other virtues Mercy and Forgiving Pardon standing behind him, looking disapprovingly into the clearing at their sister Forgiving Peace.) You surprised me, my other lovely virtues.

PARDON: But I see we have not surprised you more than my promiscuous sister!

PITY: Indeed!

SPOCK: (Saddened.) Indeed, good ladies. I’m in despair. This fiend Unrepentance has wounded me time and again, so much so that it is all I can do to keep thought of revenge from my seething mind. Night after night I struggle to keep him from my wandering thoughts. I had thought that I had succeeded at keeping him out of sight and out of mind. But now—now—

PARDON: There she is, consorting with the rebel, acting as if he had no need of repentance!

PITY: And showing no mercy to you and your feelings! She is—

PEACE: (Laughing.) Spockrates, what’s taking you so long? Come join us! You’re welcome to join us too, sisters! (Laughs some more, as Unrepentance laughs with her.)

PARDON: Shameless! That’s what she is!

PITY: Utterly shameless!

PARDON: She shamefully and unconditionally forgives any who wrong you, caring not whether they regret or appreciate the graveness of their offense.

PITY: She is excessively lenient with the vilest of mortal sinners, as if mercy were a free gift given abundantly to all who did not deserve her!

PEACE: Spockrates, don’t let those prudish sisters of mine whisper into your cute, pointy ears. Come sit on the soothing grass with us, stare at the wonderful stars, and have some fun! Why let them stress you out, my love? Let it go, and leave them and stress behind! Join me and your lovely enemy—you might just find this one you call fiend is truly a friend!

PARDON: Shocking!

PITY: Outrageous!

SPOCK: Sisters, have mercy on me! Save me from the perplexity of my confusion and indecision! Tell me, I pray thee: What I should do? Should I join my beloved Peace and consort with that rabbit cur, that poisonous snake, that putrid-smelling corpse of a man she calls my friend? Or should I withhold mercy and forgiveness until he escapes the trap of the Devil who has taken him captive to do his wicked will?

 

[spockrates]

PARDON: What should you do, Spockrates?

PITY: Isn’t it obvious?

PARDON: Do not forgive till he repents–this any fool can see!

PITY: Show no mercy till he relents–be wise and listen to me!

PEACE: (Laughing in the distance with Unrepentance): Spockrates, come love your enemy!

SPOCK: Dear sister virtues, I’m at a quandary! I must think this through carefully. For whatever is done in doubt is sin, so finding the truth is where to begin. My desired Peace tells me forgive I must. You tell me, no–in you I must trust. How to forgive I don’t know where to start. Wild steeds tied to me, are pulling me apart!

PARDON: Listen to me, Spockrates. My wisdom will put your mind at ease. Jesus words tell you I am right; you should not forgive your enemy tonight: “If your brother sins, rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him.” So tell me this: Has he admitted his sin?

SPOCK: No he has not.

PARDON: Then why forgive him?

SPOCK: (Silently pondering.)

PITY: If of the truth you are not sure, certain you’ll be when I say more. God says, “I’ll have mercy on whom I’ll have mercy.” So won’t He withhold mercy for whom He’ll withhold mercy? No rest for the wicked; no mercy in Hell. Imitate God! Do the same as well.

PEACE: (Calling from where she is embracing Unrepentance.) Forgive or God will not forgive you. Spocky, you know what to do!

SPOCK: (Still quietly wavering in indecision.)

PEACE: (Laughing with Spockrates’ enemy.) Spocky, we’re waiting!

 

[rinnie]

OK, good talking with you! Glad to see we agree that love is not only an emotion, but is also an action, and the act of forgiving is an act of love. Guess that means that Love is sometimes conditional, because Forgiveness is sometimes conditional.



Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

No although Love sometimes can be seen as being conditional it is not conditional, here is why. Lets say my child must repent and ask for my forgiveness? Does he? IF he does not does that mean he is not loved or forgiven?

If someone hurts your they need to be forgiven from you, if someone is loved by you and they hurt you the love is still there. What happens is the emotion of hurt, hate, anger mask that love is all.

But true Love is unending, unconditional.

You seem to believe that just because it is EASIER to forgive someone you love it makes love a condition. It does not. Love comes from inside and we cannot as I said control love. We can control forgiving. You can LOVE someone and NOT forgive them. You can LOVE someone and forgive them. But YOU have to CHOOSE to either forgive or not. AH HA!! Conditional.

Love = Complete, Unqualified, NOT conditional. Not limited.

Forgiveness is Qualified, Conditional. Limited

Actually the 2 are actually opposite of one another.

Love is not something you choose to do. IT comes naturally!! Unconditional. Means can’t be controlled.

Forgiveness is something YOU choose to do. It does not come quite as natural. Although it can, and when it becomes a part of your nature you become more of a part of God is all.

Look at children with downs. They are perfect. They can LOVE it cannot be controlled. But they cannot hate, hold a grudge. They are what we call the perfect child. What is perfect in the eyes of God are unperfect in this world.

Perfect example of Love being un-conditional. Forgiveness being conditional. You can hurt a child of downs a million times and they still love you the same. Forgiviness is not even a contender.

 

[spockrates]

No although Love sometimes can be seen as being conditional it is not conditional, here is why. Lets say my child must repent and ask for my forgiveness? Does he? IF he does not does that mean he is not loved or forgiven?

If someone hurts your they need to be forgiven from you, if someone is loved by you and they hurt you the love is still there. What happens is the emotion of hurt, hate, anger mask that love is all.

But true Love is unending, unconditional.

You seem to believe that just because it is EASIER to forgive someone you love it makes love a condition. It does not. Love comes from inside and we cannot as I said control love. We can control forgiving. You can LOVE someone and NOT forgive them. You can LOVE someone and forgive them. But YOU have to CHOOSE to either forgive or not. AH HA!! Conditional.

Love = Complete, Unqualified, NOT conditional. Not limited.

Forgiveness is Qualified, Conditional. Limited

Actually the 2 are actually opposite of one another.

Love is not something you choose to do. IT comes naturally!! Unconditional. Means can’t be controlled.

Forgiveness is something YOU choose to do. It does not come quite as natural. Although it can, and when it becomes a part of your nature you become more of a part of God is all.

Look at children with downs. They are perfect. They can LOVE it cannot be controlled. But they cannot hate, hold a grudge. They are what we call the perfect child. What is perfect in the eyes of God are unperfect in this world.

Perfect example of Love being un-conditional. Forgiveness being conditional. You can hurt a child of downs a million times and they still love you the same. Forgiviness is not even a contender.

Good to hear from you, Rinnie.



Can the opposite of something be the same as the thing of which it is the opposite? Are opposites the same, or are they different from each other?

 

[rinnie]

Good to hear from you, Rinnie.



Can the opposite of something be the same as the thing of which it is the opposite? Are opposites the same, or different from each other?

No but it can seem that way at times.

LIke you are trying to make unconditonal love conditional. You can’t do it. Love is Love it is there and it is forever.

Forgiveness is conditional. You still have to make a choice to forgive or hold a grudge.

Rather you forgive that person because of your love for them or forgive them for your love of God it does not matter. You still forgave them. That is doing something.

But love has no conditions. You do not choose to love them or not love them. You cannot make a heart loves somebody no matter how hard you try. Just as you cannot make a heart un-love somebody no matter how hard you try.

But you can make a heart forgive. It sometimes takes alot of prayer and alot of submission on your part but it is possible.

If someone hurts you do you agree or disagree that your either forgive or hold a grudge? either ways its conditional because you CHOOSE to do so.

One the same token when you fell unconditonal love its there forever and ever. You don’t meet someone and say I am going to LOVE you unconditional and then meet another and say I am not going to love you unconditional. Do you see what I am saying.

Unconditional is out of our control.

 

[rinnie]

Is Hot = Cold That is like saying lukewarm is hot it is not, nor is it cold.

Love = Hate.

plain = fancy

ugly = beautiful

quiet = noise

While adding cold to hot can make it luke warm and it takes hot to make cold luke warm it does not take away that hot is not lukewarm.

That is what you are trying to do when you say that because you love someone that love equals forgiveness. Love is not forgiveness. It can be a part of forgiveness but it does not have to be either.

 

[spockrates]

Is Hot = Cold That is like saying lukewarm is hot it is not, nor is it cold.

Love = Hate.

plain = fancy

ugly = beautiful

quiet = noise

While adding cold to hot can make it luke warm and it takes hot to make cold luke warm it does not take away that hot is not lukewarm.

That is what you are trying to do when you say that because you love someone that love equals forgiveness. Love is not forgiveness. It can be a part of forgiveness but it does not have to be either.

Are you saying Love is the opposite of Hate? How is Love unlike Hate?