Will you forgive me for asking?

[rinnie]

Are you saying Love is the opposite of Hate? How is Love unlike Hate?

Oh geezeeeeeeee

When you have a deep love for someone you are never jealous, love is not self seeking, love is patient, love is kind. You know the rules.

Hate is the complete opposite of those things. Hate is envious, hate is unkind, is self-seeking.

Hate is the most horrible kind of anger, When you have hate you never have peace like you do with Love. Hate is a cancer of the heart. It eats it up until it kills it.

Love is a type of Holy Water for the heart. It keeps it nourished so it can grow and grow and get bigger and larger and more beautiful. Love is like a huge rose garden with dozens of beautiful flowers. Hate is like a once beautiful rose garden left with only thorns.

 

[spockrates]

Oh geezeeeeeeee

When you have a deep love for someone you are never jealous, love is not self seeking, love is patient, love is kind. You know the rules.

Hate is the complete opposite of those things. Hate is envious, hate is unkind, is self-seeking.

Hate is the most horrible kind of anger, When you have hate you never have peace like you do with Love. Hate is a cancer of the heart. It eats it up until it kills it.

Love is a type of Holy Water for the heart. It keeps it nourished so it can grow and grow and get bigger and larger and more beautiful. Love is like a huge rose garden with dozens of beautiful flowers. Hate is like a once beautiful rose garden left with only thorns.

So Hate is the opposite of Love in regard to emotion (for Hate is jealous, impatient, envious, anxious, angry and the like). Hate is also the opposite of Love in regard to action (for it is self-seeking, unkind, and so on). True?

 

[rinnie]

So Hate is the opposite of Love in regard to emotion (for Hate is jealous, impatient, envious, anxious, angry and the like). Hate is also the opposite of Love in regard to action (for it is self-seeking, unkind, and so on). True?

Yes are you seeing any of those emotions as Love?

 

[spockrates]

Yes are you seeing any of those emotions as Love?

Not sure what I’m seeing just yet. I’ll let you know when I do!



So you would also say that Love is the opposite of Hate regarding emotion (for it is not jealous, impatient, envious, anxious, angry and the like) and also the opposite of Hate regarding action (for it is not self-seeking nor unkind). True?

 

[spockrates]

Sorry, stupid question! Obviously saying Love is the opposite of Hate is the same as saying Hate is the opposite of Love. They are (as you agreed) opposites both in emotion and in action. The feelings of Love are not the same as the feelings of Hate, and the actions of Hate are not the same as the actions of Love. Yes, I must agree with you!



So Hate *is *the opposite of Love regarding both emotion and action. Next question: Is Love the opposite of, or the same as, Hate in regard to condition? For example, can someone hate *unconditionally? *

My thought is that someone can indeed hate unconditionally (or hate someone regardless of whether or not they’ve done anything to meet the conditions to be hated). Unconditional hatred might be rare, but is certainly (sad to say) true. Some people actually feel hatred and do hateful things unconditionally. Don’t you agree?

I think you do, for your papa met no conditions to deserve the hateful acts he received from your relatives. I think so too, for my wife did not deserve to be hit in the face by my teenage son this weekend. In both cases, such acts of hatred are done without the victim meeting any conditions to deserve such hate. I think this is true, don’t you?

 

[rinnie]

Sorry, stupid question! Obviously saying Love is the opposite of Hate is the same as saying Hate is the opposite of Love. They are (as you agreed) opposites both in emotion and in action. The feelings of Love are not the same as the feelings of Hate, and the actions of Hate are not the same as the actions of Love. Yes, I must agree with you!



Next question: Is Love the opposite of, or the same as, Hate in regard to condition? For example, can someone hate unconditionally?

My thought is that someone can indeed hate unconditionally (or hate someone regardless of whether or not they’ve done anything to meet the conditions to be hated). Unconditional hatred might be rare, but is certainly (sad to say) true. Some people actually feel hatred and do hateful things unconditionally. Don’t you agree?

I think you do, for your papa met no conditions to deserve the hateful acts he received from your relatives. I think so too, for my wife did not deserve to be hit in the face by my teenage son this weekend. In both cases, such acts of hatred are done without the victim meeting any conditions to deserve such hate. I think this is true, don’t you?

No your son hit your wife for a reason. She probally didn’t give in to him and he was angry with her because she did not accept his wrong.

Your wife did not deserve the hate she received but it was a response to saying no to something your son wanted. No one deserves to be HIT never.

I feel so bad for you at this time. How old did you say your son is?

But hate is always a conditional response. You choose to do it. The hitting was not unconditonal he can control that.

I don’t think it had anything to do with hate. It was anger.

 

[spockrates]

No your son hit your wife for a reason. She probally didn’t give in to him and he was angry with her because she did not accept his wrong.

Your wife did not deserve the hate she received but it was a response to saying no to something your son wanted. No one deserves to be HIT never.

I feel so bad for you at this time. How old did you say your son is?

But hate is always a conditional response. You choose to do it. The hitting was not unconditonal he can control that.

I don’t think it had anything to do with hate. It was anger.

I think I see, now! You are saying,

conditional = choosing

but I’m saying,

conditional = deserving

In other words, we are thinking different things when we say something is conditional. Let me ask the question another way:

Do you think people should Love undeservedly? That is, do you think we should love those who don’t deserve to receive our kind or unselfish acts? Likewise, do you think some people wrongly Hate undeservedly? That is, do you think they commit selfish and unkind acts against people who do not deserve such hatred?

 

[rinnie]

I think I see, now! You are saying,

conditional = choosing

but I’m saying,

conditional = deserving

In other words, we are thinking different things when we say something is conditional. Let me ask the question another way:

Do you think people should Love undeservedly? That is, do you think we should love those who don’t deserve to receive our kind or unselfish acts? Likewise, do you think some people wrongly Hate undeservedly? That is, do you think they commit selfish and unkind acts against people who do not deserve such hatred?

Honestly Yeah. But God says we can’t

 

[spockrates]

Honestly Yeah. But God says we can’t

Then here is the fascinating thing: In some ways Hate has more in common with Love than Forgiveness does! That is, Hate is like Love in that they can both be shown to those who don’t deserve them, however Forgiveness is shown only to those who deserve to be forgiven.



But let’s think about other ways Love and Forgiveness might possibly be opposites or the same so we better understand her. Would you say that Forgiveness is an emotion, an action, or both? If it is an emotion, do you think it is a feeling more like Love or like Hate? If it is an action, do you think it is an act closer to an act of Love or an act of Hate?

 

[rinnie]

Then here is the fascinating thing: In some ways Hate has more in common with Love than Forgiveness does! That is, Hate is like Love in that they can both be shown to those who don’t deserve them, however Forgiveness is shown only to those who deserve to be forgiven.



But let’s think about other ways Love and Forgiveness might possibly be opposites or the same so we better understand her. Would you say that Forgiveness is an emotion, an action, or both? If it is an emotion, do you think it is a feeling more like Love or like Hate? If it is an action, do you think it is an act closer to an act of Love or an act of Hate?

Hold on there big fellow. How do you figure that forgiveness is only shown to those who DESERVE to be forgiven.

Lets go back to the gospel here for one minute. There is nothing that we could do to deserve to be forgiven for the love that was showed to us by Christ on the cross.

None of us deserve that!! Forgiveness was a FREE GIFT given to us by God because of his love for us, Granted.

But forgiveness does not always have to be deserved. Christ himself proved that point.

All we have to do to be forgiven is REPENT. Is that something that we deserve OR is that something that was made possible to us by the suffering of our Lord? See what I am saying?

Now if you are asking if you can forgive someone out of LOVE, Yes I agree. But again to forgive is still an act. But even Christ makes us repent!! Again we have to do something to be forgiven.

Now just because we have to repent does not change God’s love for us. See where I am going with this?

 

[byeveryword]

One is commanded to forgive one’s brother or sister in our Lord Jesus Christ, but if he or she is not repentant before the church, then one is not required to trust that individual.

The same holds true for an individual who was abused by their parent, or relative as a child. Eventually, the abused victim must forgive the pedophile, but the victim is not required to trust such an individual.

This is equally true regarding the command to love our enemies. We are required to love them, but not trust them. These are two separate types of associations with one’s enemies.

Marriage relationships require constant forgiveness and constant re-inforcement of trust. When one, or both spouses are not humbly repentant from conscious words, or acts of hurt to the other spouse, trust begins to break down, and so does the relationship.

 

[spockrates]

Hold on there big fellow. How do you figure that forgiveness is only shown to those who DESERVE to be forgiven.

Lets go back to the gospel here for one minute. There is nothing that we could do to deserve to be forgiven for the love that was showed to us by Christ on the cross.

None of us deserve that!! Forgiveness was a FREE GIFT given to us by God because of his love for us, Granted.

But forgiveness does not always have to be deserved. Christ himself proved that point.

All we have to do to be forgiven is REPENT. Is that something that we deserve OR is that something that was made possible to us by the suffering of our Lord? See what I am saying?

Perhaps. It’s clear as mud, now, but I think it’s getting clearer!



OK, Jesus said,

"So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

(Luke 17:3-4)

So if someone asked me, “Spocky, does someone who truly repents of the wrong she did to you deserve your forgiveness?” I suppose my answer would be, “Yes, indeed!” But are you thinking I’d be answering wrongly?



It seems to me that if a person truly repents, then I no longer have the right to withhold forgiveness. Since I don’t have the right, I also don’t have the choice. I mean, the right choice for me is then limited to only one choice–to forgive. So in my thinking, a person who really repents deserves to be forgiven. For it would be wrong for me to not forgive him. But do you think I’m wrong?

If someone meets the requirements to be forgiven, then doesn’t he deserve my forgiveness, and so I must forgive him? Or does he instead deserve to remain unforgiven? Take eldest my son, for example: He called me a hypocrite for not forgiving the consequences of his actions.

“I’m no Christian,” he said, “but aren’t you supposed to love your enemies? If you can forgive them, why don’t you forgive me?”

“It’s not a question of *do *I love you,” I explained, “I do! It’s really a question of *how *do I love you. In this case, the question is: How do I love you in the way I forgive you?”

I then explained that Jesus said that if he repents (sincerely admits he did wrong and genuinely shows he wants to not do it again) then I will forgive the consequences of his sin. I will give him back the privileges he lost. But he refused to would not admit he did any wrong by hitting his mother, so I did not forgive the consequences of his sin. Now if he were to truly show that he had a change of heart–if he were to show the real emotion of remorse and prove (by his actions) that he had changed, then do you think he would not deserve to be forgiven for what he did?

Now if you are asking if you can forgive someone out of LOVE, Yes I agree. But again to forgive is still an act. But even Christ makes us repent!! Again we have to do something to be forgiven.

Now just because we have to repent does not change God’s love for us. See where I am going with this?

Agreed! And if he does something to be forgiven (or repents), then I should forgive him, shouldn’t I? I think I should, for he does not deserve my continuing to not forgive him if he repents, does he?

Now I agree that our repenting does not change the love God feels for us (that is, it does not change how He feels about us) but it does change the love God gives to us, doesn’t it? Take my son as an example, again. Let’s say he continues on his rebellious path and one day commits the mortal sin of murder. Let’s say he never repents of that sin–never feels remorse or confesses he did wrong, and never changes his ways but continues to murder again and again. Would God show the same love to him that He would show if my son had instead chosen repent of that mortal sin? I think you know the answer is no.

Mortal sin of which a person does not repent likely results in the person receiving Hell, or perhaps Purgatory, but never Heaven. Repentance from such mortal sin can result in a person receiving Purgatory or Heaven, rather than Hell. The love God shows in His actions toward someone Hellbent is indeed different from the love He shows in His actions toward a true saint. So I agree that the love God feels for you, me and even my son never changes, but the love He shows to each of us does change if we are willing to change and repent. Don’t you agree?

 

[spockrates]

Likewise, the love I feel for my son (and the love your papa felt for the one who betrayed him) never changed. But the love I showed by my actions (and the love your papa might have shown by his actions) would have changed if the ones who had wronged us made the change by repenting of their evil. It seems to me, then that it takes two to forgive. For love is more than a feeling, and to forgive with our actions requires the one forgiven to first take action by repenting. Love (and forgiveness) is a two-way street–one side traveled by one who must repent, and the other side traveled by one who must forgive the one who repents, until they both meet in the middle of the street with a tearful embrace. This, I believe is one thing Saint John the Apostle might have meant when he wrote to you and me:

Dear children, let us not love with [only] words or tongue but [also] with **actions **and in truth.

1 John 3:18

 

[rinnie]

First of all lets go back to what you said about purgatory. No I disagree

See not many people see purgatory for what it really is. Let me make this easy.

Lets say I am a alcoholic and DO quit drinking. The desire to drink is still with me. Now what purgatory does is washes away the DESIRE to sin. Do you see what I am saying.

If I die and repent my sin and I am forgiven I am IN!! If God sends me to Purgatory I am STILL IN. Purgatory is just the LONG road to heaven is all. But remember if you are rendered to purgatory its a given heaven is next. If you are not rendered worthy of heaven at the time of your death, you are out!! If its hell, is hell its everlasting.

Again all purgatory does is washes away the desire to sin. Thats why its called the FINAL CLEANSING.

LIke drinking you could say I hate the trouble and hell I put people through. But OH the BUZZ I do miss that. You have to be cleansed of missing the BUZZ, see what I mean.

Purgatory is to be completely once and for all. You won’t even WANT the buzz.

 

[rinnie]

Now back to your son.

No you are not being unforgiving to him by not giving up on his punishment.

You do the crime you do the time.

He is trying to manipulate you because he wants to get his own way.

You simply stick to your guns and say I do forgive you, but you will take your punishment not because I do not forgive you, but because you did wrong and you need to be punished for your behaviour.

If you let him off the hook why not hit your wife again. He was wrong. He needs to be punished for what he did.

Remember children are like junkies all they see is what they want, and will do anything to get what they want.

But you are the Re-hab or as my Aunt Mary said too old of a cat to be screwed by a kitten

Remember punishment is not holding a grudge or being unforgiving. Look at our Lord he punished Adam and Eve he threw them out of the Garden. They had to be punished for their sin also.

 

[rinnie]

Likewise, the love I feel for my son (and the love your papa felt for the one who betrayed him) never changed. But the love I showed by my actions (and the love your papa might have shown by his actions) would have changed if the ones who had wronged us made the change by repenting of their evil. It seems to me, then that it takes two to forgive. For love is more than a feeling, and to forgive with our actions requires the one forgiven to first take action by repenting. Love (and forgiveness) is a two-way street–one side traveled by one who must repent, and the other side traveled by one who must forgive the one who repents, until they both meet in the middle of the street with a tearful embrace. This, I believe is one thing Saint John the Apostle might have meant when he wrote to you and me:

Dear children, let us not love with [only] words or tongue but [also] with **actions **and in truth.

1 John 3:18

I would not say it takes 2 to forgive, I would say it takes one to forgive and one to repent and be sorry. It has to go hand in hand.

But see when you forgive you are off the hook on your end. You are clear with God. We must forgive to be forgiven. But your son is not clear with God yet, until he quits the sin, repents and straightens up.

But you are right we must also show our love in our actions. And sometimes punishment is the greatest Love a parent can give. And you must agree the hardest thing for a parent to do.

If you do not correct him and punish him for his actions what kind of person will he become.

Unfortunately years down the road he will love your MORE for not letting him off the hook. But thats whats hard its going to be YEARS>>>>>>down the road.

 

[spockrates]

First of all lets go back to what you said about purgatory. No I disagree

See not many people see purgatory for what it really is. Let me make this easy.

Lets say I am a alcoholic and DO quit drinking. The desire to drink is still with me. Now what purgatory does is washes away the DESIRE to sin. Do you see what I am saying.

If I die and repent my sin and I am forgiven I am IN!! If God sends me to Purgatory I am STILL IN. Purgatory is just the LONG road to heaven is all. But remember if you are rendered to purgatory its a given heaven is next. If you are not rendered worthy of heaven at the time of your death, you are out!! If its hell, is hell its everlasting.

Again all purgatory does is washes away the desire to sin. Thats why its called the FINAL CLEANSING.

LIke drinking you could say I hate the trouble and hell I put people through. But OH the BUZZ I do miss that. You have to be cleansed of missing the BUZZ, see what I mean.

Purgatory is to be completely once and for all. You won’t even WANT the buzz.

Yes, I see. Purgatory is not an eternal life sentence. It is a temporary state, and the exiting gate always opens into Heaven.

 

[spockrates]

Now back to your son.

No you are not being unforgiving to him by not giving up on his punishment.

You do the crime you do the time.

He is trying to manipulate you because he wants to get his own way.

You simply stick to your guns and say I do forgive you, but you will take your punishment not because I do not forgive you, but because you did wrong and you need to be punished for your behaviour.

If you let him off the hook why not hit your wife again. He was wrong. He needs to be punished for what he did.

Remember children are like junkies all they see is what they want, and will do anything to get what they want.

But you are the Re-hab or as my Aunt Mary said too old of a cat to be screwed by a kitten

Remember punishment is not holding a grudge or being unforgiving. Look at our Lord he punished Adam and Eve he threw them out of the Garden. They had to be punished for their sin also.

Yes, so would you say that if he refuses to repent I should still forgive him with my thoughts (by feeling peace rather than a desire for revenge) and still forgive him with my words (by speaking gently and respectfully and even kindly to him, and by telling him I forgive him)? Would you also say that I should not forgive him with my actions (by removing the consequences for his sin)?

That is, do you think I should forgive with thought and word even if he does not repent, but forgive with deeds or actions only if he does repent?

 

[spockrates]

I would not say it takes 2 to forgive, I would say it takes one to forgive and one to repent and be sorry. It has to go hand in hand.

But see when you forgive you are off the hook on your end. You are clear with God. We must forgive to be forgiven. But your son is not clear with God yet, until he quits the sin, repents and straightens up.

But you are right we must also show our love in our actions. And sometimes punishment is the greatest Love a parent can give. And you must agree the hardest thing for a parent to do.

If you do not correct him and punish him for his actions what kind of person will he become.

Unfortunately years down the road he will love your MORE for not letting him off the hook. But thats whats hard its going to be YEARS>>>>>>down the road.

Yes, makes sense. It also seems to me that forgiveness in its fullest and most complete and most perfect sense is the kind of forgiveness that *does *something. Removing the punishment is something I can do, but only if he sincerely makes a change. Restoring my relationship with my son is still possible, but only if he allows me to forgive him so fully. It’s as if there are five Rs in Forgiveness: If he Repents, I must Remove the Repercussions and even Restore the Relationship.

Reminds me of the Prodigal Son. He repented of his wrongs and returned home to confess his sin to his father, and his father (rather than make the prodigal suffer as his brother wanted) tearfully embraced him and put him in charge of the family business and treated him as if he never left at all! But the father’s other son did not share such love for the repenting one:

28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in [to see the son who returned home]. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’

31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”

(Luke 15)

Funny how this same story plays out again and again–not just in families, but also in the family of God. I find it fascinating that I get so many stares of disapproval from the old men who go to mid-week Mass when they see me there. I was a child last time I attended Mass, and I’ve forgotten much of the ritual and prayers. I don’t think myself worthy of receiving the Eucharist, so I don’t. They frown when they see me and look away when I try to shake their hands as I say (at the appropriate time), “Peace be with you.” It’s not peace (or forgiveness) they feel for me (that’s evident). What they express is something more like that of the son who refused to forgive even when his father pleaded with him to do so.



What they don’t seem to understand (and perhaps are too old to learn) is that my having been gone so long has made me better, not worse. Not better in that I’m more obedient than they, but better at understanding what it is like to need to be forgiven. (For I know God the Father has forgiven me, but long for them to forgive me, too.) What’s more, knowing my own need helps me see the need of others, like my son. He needs that tearful embrace, whether he knows it or not. I hope he will soon come to his senses and escape the trap that keeps him from receiving the full benefit of love and forgiveness I long to give him, and desire for him as much as for myself.

 

[rinnie]

Yes, so would you say that if he refuses to repent I should still forgive him with my thoughts (by feeling peace rather than a desire for revenge) and still forgive him with my words (by speaking gently and respectfully and even kindly to him, and by telling him I forgive him)? Would you also say that I should not forgive him with my actions (by removing the consequences for his sin)?

That is, do you think I should forgive with thought and word even if he does not repent, but forgive with deeds or actions only if he does repent?

Oh no buddy you forgive him. You actually already did. But now you must wait for him repent and ask God for forgivness.

You can’t repent for him my friend, he has to do it on his own.

All you can do now is stand firm in your disipline.

And as far as telling him you forgive him etc. he is in no way ready to understand things like this.

And to be honest he could care less. He wants to hear that he is off the hook. He is young and has no idea of the hurt he is doing to you guys.

My Son once lifted his hand to me and went to hit me, I said go ahead take your best shot. He is over 6 foot tall and I am like 5 4. He looked down and started screaming and crying if you wern’t my Mother I would. ITs normal, and its the age. Its like a hormonal thing also. He went back in the room and started crying like a baby. They are very confused at that age also. And unfortunately it only gets worse. Mine is 25 and now actually is human again.

One minute they want to be all grown up, the next they want to be your baby. ITs a mess. Remember this when you see the swings.

But he really is not ready to hear about God and forgivenss at the moment. SO for now, be a Dad, be strong, be firm, and don;t let up. Believe it or not he NEEDS this discipline from you. In his warped mind at this time its how you are showing him Love.

He is going to push and push and push. And you put the cards on the table. You tell him HE will NEVER touch his Mother again. And you mean it. You be a good example. You tell him I have never hit a women and neither will you. Remember he is watching EVERY SINGLE MOVE YOU MAKE.

He does not care what you say, ITS WHAT YOU DO that he sees.