Will you forgive me for asking?

[rinnie]

Yes, makes sense. It also seems to me that forgiveness in its fullest and most complete and most perfect sense is the kind of forgiveness that *does *something. Removing the punishment is something I can do, but only if he sincerely makes a change. Restoring my relationship with my son is still possible, but only if he allows me to forgive him so fully. It’s as if there are five Rs in Forgiveness: If he Repents, I must Remove the Repercussions and even Restore the Relationship.

Reminds me of the Prodigal Son. He repented of his wrongs and returned home to confess his sin to his father, and his father (rather than make the prodigal suffer as his brother wanted) tearfully embraced him and put him in charge of the family business and treated him as if he never left at all! But the father’s other son did not share such love for the repenting one:

28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in [to see the son who returned home]. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’

31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”

(Luke 15)

Funny how this same story plays out again and again–not just in families, but also in the family of God. I find it fascinating that I get so many stares of disapproval from the old men who go to mid-week Mass when they see me there. I was a child last time I attended Mass, and I’ve forgotten much of the ritual and prayers. I don’t think myself worthy of receiving the Eucharist, so I don’t. They frown when they see me and look away when I try to shake their hands as I say (at the appropriate time), “Peace be with you.” It’s not peace (or forgiveness) they feel for me (that’s evident). What they express is something more like that of the son who refused to forgive even when his father pleaded with him to do so.



What they don’t seem to understand (and perhaps are too old to learn) is that my having been gone so long has made me better, not worse. Not better in that I’m more obedient than they, but better at understanding what it is like to need to be forgiven. (For I know God the Father has forgiven me, but long for them to forgive me, too.) What’s more, knowing my own need helps me see the need of others, like my son. He needs that tearful embrace, whether he knows it or not. I hope he will soon come to his senses and escape the trap that keeps him from receiving the full benefit of love and forgiveness I long to give him, and desire for him as much as for myself.

Don’t you ever give up the Eucharist. IF you missed Church for awhile all you have to do is hit confession one time and you are back. God is very forgiving.

As for the Men at Church I don’t quite understand, If they are rejecting you they are wrong. Are you sure its not just that you think they are.

If they are you just keep up what you are doing and let Gods grace move in. Trust me in a year from now they are going to love you like a Son.

 

[spockrates]

Oh no buddy you forgive him. You actually already did. But now you must wait for him repent and ask God for forgivness.

You can’t repent for him my friend, he has to do it on his own.

All you can do now is stand firm in your disipline.

And as far as telling him you forgive him etc. he is in no way ready to understand things like this.

And to be honest he could care less. He wants to hear that he is off the hook. He is young and has no idea of the hurt he is doing to you guys.

My Son once lifted his hand to me and went to hit me, I said go ahead take your best shot. He is over 6 foot tall and I am like 5 4. He looked down and started screaming and crying if you wern’t my Mother I would. ITs normal, and its the age. Its like a hormonal thing also. He went back in the room and started crying like a baby. They are very confused at that age also. And unfortunately it only gets worse. Mine is 25 and now actually is human again.

One minute they want to be all grown up, the next they want to be your baby. ITs a mess. Remember this when you see the swings.

But he really is not ready to hear about God and forgivenss at the moment. SO for now, be a Dad, be strong, be firm, and don;t let up. Believe it or not he NEEDS this discipline from you. In his warped mind at this time its how you are showing him Love.

He is going to push and push and push. And you put the cards on the table. You tell him HE will NEVER touch his Mother again. And you mean it. You be a good example. You tell him I have never hit a women and neither will you. Remember he is watching EVERY SINGLE MOVE YOU MAKE.

He does not care what you say, ITS WHAT YOU DO that he sees.

Thanks, Rinnie for the good advice.



17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

(Luke 15)

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+15&version=NIV1984

Tell me, please. In this parable about forgiveness, HOW did the father forgive his son? In what way did this papa show his forgiveness?

 

[spockrates]

Rinnie:

I’m thinking the papa in the parable forgave him two three ways:

1. 
   *]By feeling peace rather than desiring revenge
   *]By saying that their relationship was restored
   *]By doing these two things: (a) restoring the relationship between them that was lost, and (b) giving his prodigal son the same authority he had with the family business before he sinned and left home
   
   What do you think?

 

[spockrates]

SPOCKRATES: (Approaching the end of a dark path through a forest that opens into a clearing well lit by a full moon.) What’s that I hear? Sounds like my beautiful virtue Peace laughing! But who is she with who gives her such joyful company?

FORGIVING PEACE (ONE OF THE TWIN SISTER VIRTUES OF FORGIVENESS): Spockrates, is that you hiding in the dark woods? Don’t be shy! Come out into the light of the clearing! I have someone I want you to meet.

SPOCK: (Listening to the virtue Peace laughing, and a familiar, yet mischievous laugh of a man who is with her.) Why I—I don’t believe my pointy ears! Why, that’s my hated enemy Unrepentance having a good time with my beloved Peace! How dare him!

FORGIVING PARDON (THE SECOND TWIN SISTER VIRTUE OF FORGIVENESS): Yes, how dare him!

PITY (OR MERCY, ANOTHER SISTER OF THE TWINS): And how dare her!

SPOCK: (Startled, he turns around to see his other virtues Mercy and Forgiving Pardon standing behind him, looking disapprovingly into the clearing at their sister Forgiving Peace.) You surprised me, my other lovely virtues.

PARDON: But I see we have not surprised you more than my promiscuous sister!

PITY: Indeed!

SPOCK: (Saddened.) Indeed, good ladies. I’m in despair. This fiend Unrepentance has wounded me time and again, so much so that it is all I can do to keep thought of revenge from my seething mind. Night after night I struggle to keep him from my wandering thoughts. I had thought that I had succeeded at keeping him out of sight and out of mind. But now—now—

PARDON: There she is, consorting with the rebel, acting as if he had no need of repentance!

PITY: And showing no mercy to you and your feelings! She is—

PEACE: (Laughing.) Spockrates, what’s taking you so long? Come join us! You’re welcome to join us too, sisters! (Laughs some more, as Unrepentance laughs with her.)

PARDON: Shameless! That’s what she is!

PITY: Utterly shameless!

PARDON: She shamefully and unconditionally forgives any who wrong you, caring not whether they regret or appreciate the graveness of their offense.

PITY: She is excessively lenient with the vilest of mortal sinners, as if mercy were a free gift given abundantly to all who did not deserve her!

PEACE: Spockrates, don’t let those prudish sisters of mine whisper into your cute, pointy ears. Come sit on the soothing grass with us, stare at the wonderful stars, and have some fun! Why let them stress you out, my love? Let it go, and leave them and stress behind! Join me and your lovely enemy—you might just find this one you call fiend is truly a friend!

PARDON: Shocking!

PITY: Outrageous!

SPOCK: Sisters, have mercy on me, and pardon my iniquity! Save me from the perplexity of my confusion and indecision! Tell me, I pray thee: What I should do? Should I join my beloved Peace and consort with that rabbit cur, that poisonous snake, that putrid-smelling corpse of a man she calls my friend? Or should I withhold mercy and forgiveness until he escapes the trap of the Devil who has taken him captive to do his wicked will?

 

[spockrates]

PARDON: You ask what you should do, Spockrates?

PITY: Isn’t it obvious?

PARDON: Do not forgive till he repents–this any fool can see!

PITY: Show no mercy till he relents–be wise and listen to me!

PEACE: (Laughing in the distance with Unrepentance): Spockrates, come love your enemy!

SPOCK: Dear sister virtues, I’m at a quandary! I must think this through carefully. For whatever is done in doubt is sin, so finding the truth is where to begin. My desired Peace tells me forgive I must. You tell me, no–in you I must trust. How to forgive I don’t know where to start. Wild steeds tied to me, are pulling me apart!

PARDON: Listen to me, Spockrates. My wisdom will put your mind at ease. Jesus words tell you I am right; you should not forgive your enemy tonight: “If your brother sins, rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him.” So tell me this: Has he admitted his sin?

SPOCK: No he has not.

PARDON: Then why forgive him?

SPOCK: (Silently pondering.)

PITY: If of the truth you are not sure, certain you’ll be when I say more. God says, “I’ll have mercy on whom I’ll have mercy.” So won’t He withhold mercy for whom He’ll withhold mercy? No rest for the wicked; no mercy in Hell. Imitate God! Do the same as well.

PEACE: (Calling from where she is embracing Unrepentance.) Forgive or God will not forgive you. Spocky, you know what to do!

SPOCK: (Still quietly wavering in indecision.)

PEACE: (Laughing with Spockrates’ enemy.) Spocky, we’re waiting!

 

[rinnie]

Thanks, Rinnie for the good advice.



17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

(Luke 15)

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+15&version=NIV1984

Tell me, please. In this parable about forgiveness, HOW did the father forgive his son? In what way did this papa show his forgiveness?

IMO I think every good chilc could relate to this. But now lets get to the nitty gritty. Did the Son get a share in the farm now? Nope, Think about it he said to the Good son, you have ALL that I own.

But what he was saying forget about Money, Lets talk about real weath. Everlasting wealth, You brother REPENTED to me and to God and he is forgive by both.

Did the Father turn around and give him the brothers share? Heck no. He forgave him. but Jr’s money was gone he spend it, its history.

But for the Day the Old Man celebrated, because he knew his son was sorry, was forgiven because he repented and would get a bigger share in heaven.

Thats my take. It took me forever to remember him saying everything I have is yours BUT. Then it hit me Jr spent his money, but he would have to work still, but being the example he was the Old Man showing Jr mercy, the other son would show him mercy also. He would have to because we do what we see.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie:

I’m thinking the papa in the parable forgave him two three ways:

1. 
   *]By feeling peace rather than desiring revenge
   *]By saying that their relationship was restored
   *]By doing these two things: (a) restoring the relationship between them that was lost, and (b) giving his prodigal son the same authority he had with the family business before he sinned and left home
   
   What do you think?

1. 
   So back to the question I agree on one, the relationship was restored. But where did he give him the same authority, meaning where did he restore his money, Remember he didn’t he said to the good son everything I own is YOURS. but rejoice you son is back.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Mark Twain

 

[spockrates]

IMO I think every good chilc could relate to this. But now lets get to the nitty gritty. Did the Son get a share in the farm now? Nope, Think about it he said to the Good son, you have ALL that I own.

But what he was saying forget about Money, Lets talk about real weath. Everlasting wealth, You brother REPENTED to me and to God and he is forgive by both.

Did the Father turn around and give him the brothers share? Heck no. He forgave him. but Jr’s money was gone he spend it, its history.

But for the Day the Old Man celebrated, because he knew his son was sorry, was forgiven because he repented and would get a bigger share in heaven.

Thats my take. It took me forever to remember him saying everything I have is yours BUT. Then it hit me Jr spent his money, but he would have to work still, but being the example he was the Old Man showing Jr mercy, the other son would show him mercy also. He would have to because we do what we see.

Thanks for replying, Rinnie. I’m seeing this:

17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.’"

(Luke 15)

So the son was saying he was not worthy to be his papa’s son any longer, but would be glad if his papa would just make him a slave.

Then I’m seeing this:

21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

(Luke 15)

So his papa welcomed him home as a son, not as a slave. He gave him the robe to wear and ring on his finger. In ancient times, these were signs of authority–the one who wore the robe and ring was the one who was in charge and spoke for the owner. (You might remember the story of Joseph when the Egyptian Pharaoh put a robe on Joseph and gave him his ring to wear when he put him in charge.)

So, yes, he spent all of the money his papa gave him, but when he returned, papa put him in charge of the family business. His papa actually gave him a new inheritance to replaced the one he lost when he was lost!

But the more important thing is that his papa restored the relationship that was lost between him and his son. Rather than disowning him and making him a slave, he welcomed him with tears and a hug and a party. He pardoned his son for his wrongs committed against himself.

Don’t you agree?

 

[spockrates]

So back to the question I agree on one, the relationship was restored. But where did he give him the same authority, meaning where did he restore his money, Remember he didn’t he said to the good son everything I own is YOURS. but rejoice you son is back.

OK, my friend. Let’s say he did not get his inheritance back, but only received the relationship he had lost from his papa.



Would you say that restoring this relationship was a way that the papa pardoned him for what he had done? I mean, in ancient times a son did not receive his inheritance until his father died, so asking his papa for his inheritance was like telling his papa that he wished he were dead. Didn’t his papa show, by his actions, that he had personally pardoned his son for this offense?

 

[rinnie]

Hi Spock.

I believe his Father pardoned him for what he did long before he came home. What I believe is his Father was waiting and praying for his Son to come home safe and alive.

You can tell by the excitement in Papa’s voice. But forgiving someone does not always change the circumstance as you see here.

See Papa had no more money to give the son. But all he had he gave him See to us Parents, rather one kid succeeds or does not do as well means nothing to us. Back to uncondition love. ITs forever.

But the other son will see by the way his Father acted and that is how he will also react. We all only know what we are taught.

If the Papa kicked the kid to the curb the son would learn to do the same. But by his Papa’s actions he will turn around and also treat his brother with dignity and respect and love.

See confession is one thng repentance is another, It is in repentance we really pay for what we did. Like you son, he was forgiven, he is loved just as much before he sinned then after. But while he sees you love him and have forgiven him, when he does his punishment or what I call reptentance this is where he thinks about what he did wrong and pays for his crime.

IT is in his punishment that will make him think twice before he ever raises another hand. You are doing a fine job, But remember punishment is Love also.

There is a reason for punishment. LIke you never know how important things are until you lose them. Look at water, try going a day without it, or electric, or a Car etc. Sometimes you have to lose things to appreciate them, and sometimes you must be punished to understand the extend of what you did wrong.

IF not why not continue to do bad things if there are no consequences. See what I mean?

 

[spockrates]

Hi Spock.

I believe his Father pardoned him for what he did long before he came home. What I believe is his Father was waiting and praying for his Son to come home safe and alive.

You can tell by the excitement in Papa’s voice. But forgiving someone does not always change the circumstance as you see here.

See Papa had no more money to give the son. But all he had he gave him See to us Parents, rather one kid succeeds or does not do as well means nothing to us. Back to uncondition love. ITs forever.

But the other son will see by the way his Father acted and that is how he will also react. We all only know what we are taught.

If the Papa kicked the kid to the curb the son would learn to do the same. But by his Papa’s actions he will turn around and also treat his brother with dignity and respect and love.

See confession is one thng repentance is another, It is in repentance we really pay for what we did. Like you son, he was forgiven, he is loved just as much before he sinned then after. But while he sees you love him and have forgiven him, when he does his punishment or what I call reptentance this is where he thinks about what he did wrong and pays for his crime.

IT is in his punishment that will make him think twice before he ever raises another hand. You are doing a fine job, But remember punishment is Love also.

There is a reason for punishment. LIke you never know how important things are until you lose them. Look at water, try going a day without it, or electric, or a Car etc. Sometimes you have to lose things to appreciate them, and sometimes you must be punished to understand the extend of what you did wrong.

IF not why not continue to do bad things if there are no consequences. See what I mean?

Thanks, Rinnie. I see, but only as one who is extremely nearsighted and is not wearing eyeglasses! I’d like to see more clearly than I do. Let me tell you what I think I know I see clearly and you tell me if you agree:

1. 
   *]I should *never *stop loving my son
   *]I should *already *have forgiven my son in my thoughts and feelings (by not holding a grudge and not seeking revenge)
   *]I should *wait *for my son to repent before I forgive him in my actions (by letting him have his inheritance, which is, in his case, a car and a college loan, and the freedom to live at home after he turns 18)

 

[rinnie]

Thanks, Rinnie. I see, but only as one who is extremely nearsighted and is not wearing eyeglasses! I’d like to see more clearly than I do. Let me tell you what I think I know I see clearly and you tell me if you agree:

1. 
   *]I should *never *stop loving my son
   *]I should *already *have forgiven my son in my thoughts and feelings (by not holding a grudge and not seeking revenge)
   *]I should *wait *for my son to repent before I forgive him in my actions (by letting him have his inheritance, which is, in his case, a car and a college loan, and the freedom to live at home after he turns 18)

1. 
   Huh? To begin with you can’t just quit loving your son. As I stated from the beginning of this thread Love is unconditional. You are trying to put conditions on love now. How can you quit doing something you have no control over. You can’t UN-Love someone.
   
   You should always forgive someone no matter how hard it is, and the sooner the better, the sooner the easier it is. If you don’t, hate can also grow. And before long you learn that you carried all this extra weight around for nothing. Many times for years, and the person you have not forgiven may not even know you are holding a grudge. Remember forgivness is a gift we give more to ourself, not others.
   
   I know I asked you earlier how old your son was again, and you didn’t say, But I believe you said earlier he was 8 or something. So if that is the case you don’t have to worry about waiting until he is 18 thats about college age anyway.
   
   But why should you wait to forgive him until he repents? I said you should forgive him right away but you should not forego his punishment. Just because you punish him does not mean you did not forgive him. But you know what. ITs your choice when you choose to forgive though. No one can tell you when to forgive. They can tell you that you should right away but its your free will to forgive or not. That why forgivness is conditional, you choose when and if.
   
   All I am saying is that when you refuse to let things go and forgive you make yourself miserable and thats okay, but then you make others around you even more miserable and thats really not okay. No one Likes to be around bitter hateful people, and thats what resentment turns you into.
   
   The devil loves it, (its how he makes his money).
   
   Lets say you hit someones fender and you tell them you are sorry and they say they forgive you. Do you still have to fix that fender? Is not paying for the damage you have done part of your repentence? Then how would making your son finish out his punishment mean you are still holding a grudge?

 

[spockrates]

Huh? To begin with you can’t just quit loving your son. As I stated from the beginning of this thread Love is unconditional. You are trying to put conditions on love now. How can you quit doing something you have no control over. You can’t UN-Love someone.

You should always forgive someone no matter how hard it is, and the sooner the better, the sooner the easier it is. If you don’t, hate can also grow. And before long you learn that you carried all this extra weight around for nothing. Many times for years, and the person you have not forgiven may not even know you are holding a grudge. Remember forgivness is a gift we give more to ourself, not others.

I know I asked you earlier how old your son was again, and you didn’t say, But I believe you said earlier he was 8 or something. So if that is the case you don’t have to worry about waiting until he is 18 thats about college age anyway.

But why should you wait to forgive him until he repents? I said you should forgive him right away but you should not forego his punishment. Just because you punish him does not mean you did not forgive him. But you know what. ITs your choice when you choose to forgive though. No one can tell you when to forgive. They can tell you that you should right away but its your free will to forgive or not. That why forgivness is conditional, you choose when and if.

All I am saying is that when you refuse to let things go and forgive you make yourself miserable and thats okay, but then you make others around you even more miserable and thats really not okay. No one Likes to be around bitter hateful people, and thats what resentment turns you into.

The devil loves it, (its how he makes his money).

Lets say you hit someones fender and you tell them you are sorry and they say they forgive you. Do you still have to fix that fender? Is not paying for the damage you have done part of your repentence? Then how would making your son finish out his punishment mean you are still holding a grudge?

My son is 17 years old, which explains my disciplining him for hitting my wife in the face with his fist more than once and my reason for struggling over what forgiveness is and how to forgive and love him.

I think I’m getting closer to hearing what you are saying, Rinnie. So please help me. Is this what my pointy ear is still failing to hear?

1a. It’s impossible to ever stop loving my son.

2a. I should already have forgiven my son in my thoughts and feelings (by not holding a grudge and not desiring revenge) because we should always forgive, even if a person does not repent.

3a. I should wait for my son to repent before I take action (by, for example, letting him have his inheritance, which is, in his case, a car and a college loan, and the freedom to live at home after he turns 18) but this action is NOT love, because it requires a choice, and it is NOT forgiveness, because I should never wait to forgive.

 

[rinnie]

My son is 17 years old, which explains my disciplining him for hitting my wife in the face with his fist more than once and my reason for struggling over what forgiveness is and how to forgive and love him.

I think I’m getting closer to hearing what you are saying, Rinnie. So please help me. Is this what my pointy ear is still failing to hear?

1a. It’s impossible to ever stop loving my son.

2a. I should already have forgiven my son in my thoughts and feelings (by not holding a grudge and not desiring revenge) because we should always forgive, even if a person does not repent.

3a. I should wait for my son to repent before I take action (by, for example, letting him have his inheritance, which is, in his case, a car and a college loan, and the freedom to live at home after he turns 18) but this action is NOT love, because it requires a choice, and it is NOT forgiveness, because I should never wait to forgive.

Okay this does make more sense. 17 That is by the way EXACTLY the age my son turned into the devil I swear I thought his head would do a full turn at times

My son left home at 17 and took the truck that I owned with him. I said bring the truck back home and then you are free to do whatever you want. It didn’t take him long to see that no money and no wheels was not too much fun.

Then he said he was not going to finish school, He had ONE more year. I said you enjoy your 2 weeks at your friends house but you will be back in 2 week and you will finish school. After that you are on your own. You don’t have to go to college etc.

See I knew in the back of my mind he still wanted ME to MAKE him come home. He wanted to come home SO bad, but refused to admit it, I gave him the out.

I prayed and prayed to the Blessed Mother to protect him and help me get through those next 2 weeks. And trust me I told him by 5 on Sunday night and he was here. A little cockey but I knew he was homesick.

Then he rebelled at 18 again and said no college. I said okay do what you want.

Then after one dead end job after another he begged me to LET him go to school. THen he saw it as a privilege.

Then he graduated and got mixed up with the wrong girl, liived with her and her mother. And was miserable. Finally called and asked if he could come home.

That was 3 years ago, Now he said he is NEVER leaving. I said oh yes you will BUt honestly its time, I want him on his own now. But I told him, he is a mechanic for the drilling rig around here making good money now. He is actually 25 now and working 19 days straight 12-14 hour days. But I told him he has one year to save up and he must buy a house. Even if its ****, we can fix it up, but he needs to be responsible now.

See its not revenge, or a punishment now, he has to become responsible and I can’t just keep being his MOMMY.

Right now your son NEEDS a MOMMY and DADDY, He is not ready to grow up yet. His friends are saying sissy wimp mommys boy, and he is, yet he wants to grow up also. He is in the hardest stage of his life right now. HE is between a little boy and becomming a man and they are fighting one another. SO he takes it out on your wife because he loves her the most, and he knows her love for him.

BUt he was wrong. Be back got a customer.

 

[spockrates]

Okay this does make more sense. 17 That is by the way EXACTLY the age my son turned into the devil I swear I thought his head would do a full turn at times

My son left home at 17 and took the truck that I owned with him. I said bring the truck back home and then you are free to do whatever you want. It didn’t take him long to see that no money and no wheels was not too much fun.

Then he said he was not going to finish school, He had ONE more year. I said you enjoy your 2 weeks at your friends house but you will be back in 2 week and you will finish school. After that you are on your own. You don’t have to go to college etc.

See I knew in the back of my mind he still wanted ME to MAKE him come home. He wanted to come home SO bad, but refused to admit it, I gave him the out.

I prayed and prayed to the Blessed Mother to protect him and help me get through those next 2 weeks. And trust me I told him by 5 on Sunday night and he was here. A little cockey but I knew he was homesick.

Then he rebelled at 18 again and said no college. I said okay do what you want.

Then after one dead end job after another he begged me to LET him go to school. THen he saw it as a privilege.

Then he graduated and got mixed up with the wrong girl, liived with her and her mother. And was miserable. Finally called and asked if he could come home.

That was 3 years ago, Now he said he is NEVER leaving. I said oh yes you will BUt honestly its time, I want him on his own now. But I told him, he is a mechanic for the drilling rig around here making good money now. He is actually 25 now and working 19 days straight 12-14 hour days. But I told him he has one year to save up and he must buy a house. Even if its ****, we can fix it up, but he needs to be responsible now.

See its not revenge, or a punishment now, he has to become responsible and I can’t just keep being his MOMMY.

Right now your son NEEDS a MOMMY and DADDY, He is not ready to grow up yet. His friends are saying sissy wimp mommys boy, and he is, yet he wants to grow up also. He is in the hardest stage of his life right now. HE is between a little boy and becomming a man and they are fighting one another. SO he takes it out on your wife because he loves her the most, and he knows her love for him.

BUt he was wrong. Be back got a customer.

Sounds like we have prodigal sons with something in common.

 

[spockrates]

So do you think my pointy ears are hearing you correctly, now? Are (1a), (2a) and (3a) the truths you want to convey?

1a. It’s impossible to ever stop loving my son, because love is a feeling I have for him and not a choice.

2a. I should already have forgiven my son in my thoughts and feelings (by not holding a grudge and not desiring revenge) because we should always choose to forgive, even if a person does not repent.

3a. I should wait for my son to repent before I take action (by, for example, letting him have his inheritance, which is, in his case, a car and a college loan, and the freedom to live at home after he turns 18) but this action is NOT love, because it requires a choice, and it is NOT forgiveness, because I should never wait to forgive.

 

[rinnie]

So do you think my pointy ears are hearing you correctly, now? Are (1a), (2a) and (3a) the truths you want to convey?

1a. It’s impossible to ever stop loving my son, because love is a feeling I have for him and not a choice.

2a. I should already have forgiven my son in my thoughts and feelings (by not holding a grudge and not desiring revenge) because we should always choose to forgive, even if a person does not repent.

3a. I should wait for my son to repent before I take action (by, for example, letting him have his inheritance, which is, in his case, a car and a college loan, and the freedom to live at home after he turns 18) but this action is NOT love, because it requires a choice, and it is NOT forgiveness, because I should never wait to forgive.

Well lets think about this for a minute. So then what you are saying is that by giving him a Car and letting him get a loan and letting him stay a home is an act of love.

So then anotherwards if say your neighbor does not buy his kid a car, and hasn’t the means to let him live at home for free he does not love his child. So giving money is the only act of love?

Now lets get back to forgiveness, it does NOT ALWAYS come right off the bat. I know It don’t for me, Yes it did for Papa but God did not give me that kind of Grace, or that MUCH grace.

I had to continue to PRAY for it, to even understand it.

I personally would have a real hard time forgiving like Papa did, but I had an easy time understanding his unconditional love for his family.

See as far as you and your son, do I understand your anger, hurt, not sure if you are ready to forgvie quite yet? Heck yeah I do.

Jr needs to be knocked down a couple notches. He was wrong, If he don’t straighten up and fly right I would not give him a car right away. You EARN those things.

What about school, is he in with the wrong crowd, and if he is drinking and doing drugs there is no way in hell I would send him to school. And if you think he is doing drugs, he would for sure live in my house and get drug tested also.

He needs to see that school is not a punishment it is a privilage. My Son said he could not wait to go to college and he didn’t want to live home, if he could not go to a 50,000 a year school he wasn’t going. Guess what, He did not go. I knew he was not ready to leave and the party was not going to be on me.

If he is not ready for school, and you see he is acting up, don’t give him a car. That is the biggest mistake you can do. You make him earn it.

I bought my son 2 broncos, 2 trucks, a Jeep, and it was the biggest mistake I could ever do. Not alone the quad. Now he bought his own, and he is PAYING me for the Motercycle that was his Dads. No more free rides. I learned the hard way. Take it from me, he will never appreciate it.

Now he pays me every week for the bike or no bike.

Take it from me, and by the way Jr needs a job. Is he working, if not you make him work, Work is what keeps them out of trouble. TRUST ME.

 

[spockrates]

Well lets think about this for a minute. So then what you are saying is that by giving him a Car and letting him get a loan and letting him stay a home is an act of love.

So then anotherwards if say your neighbor does not buy his kid a car, and hasn’t the means to let him live at home for free he does not love his child. So giving money is the only act of love?

Well, my responsibility at the moment is not to question what others should do, but to ask what I should do. In my case, I have the financial means to co-sign a college loan for my son. Without my signature, he won’t get the loan. Without the loan, he won’t go to college.

But what I’m thinking you are saying by (1a) is that love is never an act that you choose to do; it is a feeling over which you have no control. Love is what you feel for someone, not what you do for him. Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[rinnie]

Well, in my case, I have the financial means to co-sign a college loan for my son. Without my signature, he won’t get the loan.

But what I’m thinking you are saying by (1a) is that love is not an act that you choose to do; it is a feeling over which you have no control. Love is what you feel for someone, not what you do for him. Am I understanding you correctly?

No what I am saying is I signed for my Son, also. Not because I loved him, although I do, and I did not sign for the 50,000 school not because I did not love him.

I knew he was not ready to go to school at that moment, and let him work first. He was the kind of kid who needed to see what a honor it was for me to do so.

Tell me this, what if you sign and he fails, because he is either on drugs, messed up with the wrong crowd, etc, then what can you pay that off and then sign again?