Will you still go to heaven?

[Jimmy_B]

If you are the “perfect” Christian in every other way but you can’t ask for forgiveness, can’t forgive and can’t love your enemy, will you still go to heaven?

 

[Davidcameron]

If you are the “perfect” Christian in every other way but you can’t ask for forgiveness, can’t forgive and can’t love your enemy, will you still go to heaven?

If I am the perfect human in every other way but I have no emotions, never hungers and never moves can I still join humanity as a man?

Your question is weird because you put forth a qualification and then totally fail to prove these qualities. Such is not even a christian, let alone a perfect one.

 

[JRKH]

If you are the “perfect” Christian in every other way but you can’t ask for forgiveness, can’t forgive and can’t love your enemy, will you still go to heaven?

I think I have to second Davidcameron’s view that such a person isn ot actually a christian, let alone a “perfect” one.

I think a reference to the Lord’s prayer should be sufficient to answer your question though. “Forgive us our Trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us…”
We may expect forgiveness in proportion to how we forgive. If we will not forgive, then we will not be forgiven.
I can’t think of the reference right now, but Christ says in the Gospels that what we measure out to others will be measured back to us.
St Paul says that Love is greater than either faith or hope, or ansy other of the virtures. In fact Love is the basis upon which other, true Christian virtues are built.

When you say that a person is a “perfect” Christian in every other way, what ways are you refering to?
Their faith? - Can one have faith without Love?
Their adherance to “rules” - such obedience means nothing in and of itself.

Peace
James

 

[callmeChris]

I think you should read the story of the rich young ruler who came to Jesus.

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

18"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’[d] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[e]"

20"All these I have kept," the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19: 16-26

Think about this for a moment… “All these I have kept,” the young man said. And Jesus said "You are lacking in one thing. Now direct this to YOUR question.
Jesus tells you: “You follow all of these, and yet you are lacking one thing; FORGIVENESS!”

Now read Matthew 5:7: Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." In my opinion: If any christian is lacking in one thing (Which we all are) then we are not even close to perfect! Hopefully this post answers it.

 

[LindaSK]

If you are the “perfect” Christian in every other way but you can’t ask for forgiveness, can’t forgive and can’t love your enemy, will you still go to heaven?

The first thing that came to mind was this passage from 1 Corinthians 13:
1*
If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.*

Wondering if there is a particular reason for your question?

Of course, only God will make the judgment as to who goes to heaven. Without love and forgiveness, how "perfect’ can any act be? How truly ‘Christian’ can it be? Did Christ ever act without love or forgiveness? An act done without love and forgiveness is performed for motives that are neither perfect nor Christian. Your initial premise is flawed.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

If you are the “perfect” Christian in every other way but you can’t ask for forgiveness, can’t forgive and can’t love your enemy, will you still go to heaven?

I had a quick look at your blog. You seem to have a tough streak in you - ex-Marine, good boxer, and cop by the sound of it.

I find it difficult to forgive some people, particularly my father, who in his own words on the night he turned up in my room on the night he died, said to me, “I’ve completely wrecked your life”. He even stated, “Son, you’ve got to forgive me! If you don’t, you’ll destroy yourself!”

Clearly he could foresee the difficulty I was going to have trying to forgive his deliberate cruelty.

But Scripture is pretty clear that we have to forgive our enemies, and as far as I’m concerned, my own father was my enemy. “A man’s worst enemies will be those of his own household”.

I suspect some cases of unforgiving people end up in Purgatory. Some may end up in Hell. Since i have not fully forgiven my own father, I would not expect to go to heaven immediately if I died right now. Of course there would be other reasons also - I don’t think I quite qualify as a saint.

I’m curious though as to why you asked the question. Something to do with your military background? Experiences in the Marine Corp? In the battlefield if you saw active service? Things you’ve seen as a cop?

 

[JRKH]

I had a quick look at your blog. You seem to have a tough streak in you - ex-Marine, good boxer, and cop by the sound of it.

I find it difficult to forgive some people, particularly my father, who in his own words on the night he turned up in my room on the night he died, said to me, “I’ve completely wrecked your life”. He even stated, “Son, you’ve got to forgive me! If you don’t, you’ll destroy yourself!”

Clearly he could foresee the difficulty I was going to have trying to forgive his deliberate cruelty.

But Scripture is pretty clear that we have to forgive our enemies, and as far as I’m concerned, my own father was my enemy. “A man’s worst enemies will be those of his own household”.

I suspect some cases of unforgiving people end up in Purgatory. Some may end up in Hell. Since i have not fully forgiven my own father, I would not expect to go to heaven immediately if I died right now. Of course there would be other reasons also - I don’t think I quite qualify as a saint.

I’m curious though as to why you asked the question. Something to do with your military background? Experiences in the Marine Corp? In the battlefield if you saw active service? Things you’ve seen as a cop?

Jimmy B,
The above is a wonderful response. I’d like to apologize for my somewhat “kneejerk” reaction to your OP and also ask if there are specific reasons for your asking this question.

Peace
James

 

[Jimmy_B]

I had a quick look at your blog. You seem to have a tough streak in you - ex-Marine, good boxer, and cop by the sound of it.

I find it difficult to forgive some people, particularly my father, who in his own words on the night he turned up in my room on the night he died, said to me, “I’ve completely wrecked your life”. He even stated, “Son, you’ve got to forgive me! If you don’t, you’ll destroy yourself!”

Clearly he could foresee the difficulty I was going to have trying to forgive his deliberate cruelty.

But Scripture is pretty clear that we have to forgive our enemies, and as far as I’m concerned, my own father was my enemy. “A man’s worst enemies will be those of his own household”.

I suspect some cases of unforgiving people end up in Purgatory. Some may end up in Hell. Since i have not fully forgiven my own father, I would not expect to go to heaven immediately if I died right now. Of course there would be other reasons also - I don’t think I quite qualify as a saint.

I’m curious though as to why you asked the question. Something to do with your military background? Experiences in the Marine Corp? In the battlefield if you saw active service? Things you’ve seen as a cop?

No, I think my daughter sums it up best when she says that I blunt… Over the years at LAPD, I was told by some that I was pretty intense. I didn’t think much about it at the time, because, I always thought that good cops were intense and I liked other cops who were intense and I mean intense in dangerous, serious and tactical situations…

That’s not to say that there are not some very nice policeman, there are but they tend to avoid those assignments that require a certain amount if intensity and aggressiveness. There will always be jobs like that on the department…

Randy Simmons, the slain, LAPD SWAT officer was both aggressive, when he had to be and a kind Christian away from the job… it ain’t easy but it can be done…

When I was a young policeman, the department like guys like me… you know, the whole aggressive, “High Speed” thing…different world now…

It’s sort of like what the military expects from their men at the beginning of the war and how they have to change when it turns into a “police action”…same solider, now having to work under a different set of rules… we all must learn to adapt to changing environments… it’s just harder for some peaople than it is for others.

I’ve always equated intensity to fearlessness, that’s why I like intense soldiers’ and intense Marines. I may have been intense but I never had a sustained compliant from a citizen, because I was always fair to people and respectful, once the cuffs were on but I did enjoy throwing bad guys behind bars.

I still cuss like an old copper at times, especially, when I’m around other cops. Sailors have nothing on cops when it comes to bad language… hard habit to break… but I’m working on it. However, I don’t lie, cheat or steal… and try to be an observant Catholic…

When I was younger, I was a rescue diver, lifeguard and medic and I’ve always felt compassion for the sick, injured and dying and wanted to help anyone in need…still feel that way…

I try to be polite to people, you know, “yes sir”, “please”, “thank you”, “excuse me” and “I’m sorry” but I’m a little rough around the edges and have to constantly work on my anger and patience’s.

It’s funny, now that I’m retired, There are some cops who won’t call, because I’m too “religious” for them now . They don’t say that that is the reason but I can sense it… And yet, there are those civilians who act “religious”, who don’t like guys like me… I’m caught in the middle.

My question here wasn’t just for me, it was also for people who won’t show forgiveness to me or guys like me…

When my brother came back from Iraqi Freedom (1st Rotation), I took him to see the Passion of the Christ and he hated the movie because the actors reminded him of Iraqi’s…

I wonder what God thinks about people who refuse to be tolerant, forgiving and loving toward policemen, soldiers and Marines. Where is their place in Christianity, when they come home, or retire?

It seems to me that for some , Christianity is easy, maybe because they have had it easy in life and for others, it’s hard…

Finally, the young man boxing for West Point on ESPN, on my blog, is my son… When I boxed they didn’t have VCR’s and CD players… I think it was 7mm at the time and that was for rich people…

Thank you for your post.

 

[catsrus]

I’ve spent the past 5 years trying not to hate my ex and, at times, trying to forgive. It’s an ongoing process. I WANT to forgive. My Priest told me that wanting to forgive is the 1st step in the right direction.
I still have “those” moments, but, little by little it’s getting better. Frequent prayer is the key.

 

[Berean2]

It seems to me that for some , Christianity is easy, maybe because they have had it easy in life and for others, it’s hard…

Jimmy, anyone who takes His perfect standard & his walk with Him seriously—and who’s honest about himself—will find it hard. It would seem that even Paul didn’t find it easy, as he laments in Romans 7 that “I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.” (He also refers to himself as the chief of sinners!)

have to constantly work on my anger and patience’s

:thumbsup:Me, too, dadgummit! (Are you a Choleric, too?)

:console:

 

[Bob_Crowley]

It’s sort of like what the military expects from their men at the beginning of the war and how they have to change when it turns into a “police action”…same solider, now having to work under a different set of rules… we all must learn to adapt to changing environments… it’s just harder for some peaople than it is for others.

I’ve always equated intensity to fearlessness, that’s why I like intense soldiers’ and intense Marines. I may have been intense but I never had a sustained compliant from a citizen, because I was always fair to people and respectful, once the cuffs were on but I did enjoy throwing bad guys behind bars.

…

It’s funny, now that I’m retired, There are some cops who won’t call, because I’m too “religious” for them now . They don’t say that that is the reason but I can sense it… And yet, there are those civilians who act “religious”, who don’t like guys like me… I’m caught in the middle.

…

My question here wasn’t just for me, it was also for people who won’t show forgiveness to me or guys like me…

When my brother came back from Iraqi Freedom (1st Rotation), I took him to see the Passion of the Christ and he hated the movie because the actors reminded him of Iraqi’s…

I wonder what God thinks about people who refuse to be tolerant, forgiving and loving toward policemen, soldiers and Marines. Where is their place in Christianity, when they come home, or retire?

It seems to me that for some , Christianity is easy, maybe because they have had it easy in life and for others, it’s hard…

…

Thank you for your post.

I’m a bit wary about answering here because I don’t have experience of either the military or the police force. I should imagine also the tendency for freely available firearms to be brandished in the US makes LA police work more intense that it would be here in Australia. I remember a story by a bloke I met who’d only been in the US for two hours who found himself searched, handcuffed and in the lock up simply because he got out of the car to answer a police enquiry. He and they had a bit of a joke about it later, but over here, it’s quite common for someone to get out of their car to talk to the cops.

That said, I indicated that I have a hard time forgiving my father. Nevertheless he did have military experience, having fought in World War II in a battle called Milne Bay in Papua New Guinea (the first time the Japanese Army had a decisive defeat, even if it was a limited theatre). I respect that part of his background. But there were a lot of other men who also lived and fought in similar conditions, and they didn’t make it their life’s policy to deliberately wreck their own son’s life.

One of the things that Christ never did was to condemn the military, enen though Roman soldiers played a role in His crucifixion. No doubt he realised the stress they lived under, and in any case we live in a fallen world, and therefore the military and police will always be a necessity. He even complimented one centurion, saying that He had never met such faith in Israel.

He did say that those who live by the sword will die by the sword, but I don’t think he was referring to the military. To me that was a reference to crime, terrorism, violent rebellions etc.

In one sense there’s not much you can do about the attitudes of others. You can only live your own life, and set an example there. Some of it may rub off. Your old police mates, while they may not visit as they find you too ‘religious’, will still be watching to see how this new religiosity of yours changes you. In the end, that’s the only witness that counts.

You can forgive others. You can’t force them to forgive you, or the military, or the police.

 

[dianaiad]

If you are the “perfect” Christian in every other way but you can’t ask for forgiveness, can’t forgive and can’t love your enemy, will you still go to heaven?

I am forcibly reminded of one of my favorite songs from “Pirates of Penzance,” with this question.

When a felon’s not engaged in his employment
Or maturing his felonious little plans
His capacity for innocent enjoyment
Is just as great as any honest man’s.

Our feelings we with difficulty smother
When constabulary duty’s to be done
Ah, take one consideration with another
A policeman’s lot is not a happy one.

When the enterprising burglar’s not a-burgling
When the cut-throat isn’t occupied in crime
He loves to hear the little brook apgurgling
And listen to the merry village chime

When the coster’s finished jumping on his mother
He loves to lie a-basking in the sun
Ah, take one consideration with another
A policeman’s lot is not a happy one.

(sorry about that…but now I’m going to have that tune flittering around in my brain ALL DAY.)

The answer to your question is this: the person you describe is a Christian if he professes belief in Jesus Christ, but…why do verses with works like ‘tinkling brass’ come to mind?