willful poor

[michelleds]

I think that in the US there is a distinction to be made between unavoidable or imposed poverty and willful poverty. Furthermore, I think that this distinction should be carefully and precisely drawn in order to advance social justice aims.

In my line of work, I have sat in courtrooms and heard the following more times than I can count. The Judge asks the man or woman if they are employed. the person says no. the judge asks when their last job was. the answer is usually never, but it might be two or three or six years ago. the judge will ask if they ever apply for a job and the answer is no. the judge will ask if there’s some reason–physical or mental disability. and the answer is no. they just don’t want to work and they don’t.

I have heard a lot of people complain about providing for the poor, but I don’t think they are actually bemoaning providing for those who cannot provide for themselves. I think that they are stating that they don’t want to provide for those who are capable but unwilling to provide for themselves. so everyone gets lumped into one category, without distinction.

What say you?

 

[Jeanne_S]

I agree that there is and always will be a segment of our poor who willfully choose to be.The welfare program,instituted,with the intent to serve as a short term safety net those dealing with financial duress, has evolved into a lifestyle choice,passed on from one generation to the next. The powers that be(government) encourage this attitude! Jeanne

 

[3DOCTORS]

Maybe they have a hidden or difficult to diagnose mental problem, such as lifelong depression, or a drug or alcohol problem they’re not disclosing. Something, in other words, that could be treated. I realize it’d cost a lot to require evaluations in such cases, but maybe some of these folks could be rehabilitated?

If it is truly their conscious, free, unencumbered choice, then they should try to figure out how to live cheaply - there is a social movement of people who actually choose homelessness for various reasons, and maybe these are people with more of a “nomadic” spirit. Of course, the laws in most areas of our society discourage this because these people aren’t paying taxes, and they are often seen as vagrants and such.

But if a person wants to live simply and frugally and doesn’t ask for a handout maybe that’s okay. The problem is when they want others to support them.

I am on disability for a complex mix of mental issues and it’s no picnic but I have realized I will have fewer financial resources and need to be frugal. And maybe I can add to my income with freelance means that are less stressful, I’m looking into that.

Guess it boils down to, there’s no clear-cut way of determining 100% accurately who’s “lazy” vs. who does have legitimate “issues” and maybe we need to see if we could come up with something.

Age may have something to do with it as well; some of these folks you are seeing may have been raised to be immature by parents who were themselves immature and irresponsible (and in many cases, absent altogether).

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

I think that in the US there is a distinction to be made between unavoidable or imposed poverty and willful poverty. Furthermore, I think that this distinction should be carefully and precisely drawn in order to advance social justice aims.

In my line of work, I have sat in courtrooms and heard the following more times than I can count. The Judge asks the man or woman if they are employed. the person says no. the judge asks when their last job was. the answer is usually never, but it might be two or three or six years ago. the judge will ask if they ever apply for a job and the answer is no. the judge will ask if there’s some reason–physical or mental disability. and the answer is no. they just don’t want to work and they don’t.

I have heard a lot of people complain about providing for the poor, but I don’t think they are actually bemoaning providing for those who cannot provide for themselves. I think that they are stating that they don’t want to provide for those who are capable but unwilling to provide for themselves. so everyone gets lumped into one category, without distinction.

What say you?

When we make distinctions between the “deserving” and the “undeserving” poor, we tread treacherous moral ground.

Luna

 

[Leegal]

I think that in the US there is a distinction to be made between unavoidable or imposed poverty and willful poverty. Furthermore, I think that this distinction should be carefully and precisely drawn in order to advance social justice aims.

In my line of work, I have sat in courtrooms and heard the following more times than I can count. The Judge asks the man or woman if they are employed. the person says no. the judge asks when their last job was. the answer is usually never, but it might be two or three or six years ago. the judge will ask if they ever apply for a job and the answer is no. the judge will ask if there’s some reason–physical or mental disability. and the answer is no. they just don’t want to work and they don’t.

I have heard a lot of people complain about providing for the poor, but I don’t think they are actually bemoaning providing for those who cannot provide for themselves. I think that they are stating that they don’t want to provide for those who are capable but unwilling to provide for themselves. so everyone gets lumped into one category, without distinction.

What say you?

You are in a position to discern those cases where the person admits that he/she has never looked for a job and has no intention of doing so. But that’s not all cases, only those that come before your attention. I would say those obviously not suffering from any mental disorder, some disorder is likely the etiology of whatever causes the person to never want to seek work. My first guess would be depression, which is not always evident and can be very insidious and so subtle as to not be discernable.

I’m in another position since I work with criminals mainly, or have for most of my career. I do my, job but make no judgment. Detachment is the order.

As I said in another thread, when I have it I give it. I cannot guess why the person is poor or homeless. My moral conscience will not allow me to make distinctions among the poor who are poor and can’t get out of it and those who willfully will not look for work. Besides, not all mental illness is obvious.

 

[GratefulFred]

Good points about never knowing for sure if some are accomplished freeloaders while others just do not have the capacity to do better.

Christ said we will always have the poor among us. We do have a moral duty to provide the basics. And it is better to err on the side of love and provide than on the side of “It’s all your fault, deal with it.”

Human dignity is important. Often a handout is indeed the right thing to do to maintain one’s human dignity. But dignity also means allowing one to give something in return. Simply providing handouts, damages dignity, self esteem, a sense of self worth.

Our goal should not be an endless string of handouts to all poor leading to total dependency. Our goal should be to develop one’s ability to be more self sufficient. I simply am not aware of what is required in return for financial support. I am not aware of reasonable efforts that are made to try to rescue the poor, who, with proper guidance, can recover to a better life.

We have to offer help to rebuild. And individuals have to be willing to accept that help. I have no data, but somehow I feel that perhaps 50% of the poor do not have to remain poor indefinitely IF we but offer the proper help to get back on track.

The old “give a fish” versus “teach to fish” idea.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

How many willful poor are there I wonder. If the number is small relative to the total number of poor people, I see no reason to draw such a distinction. We could, however, try to find out if there is some psychological problem common to this group and target them for help.

 

[Bobby_Jim]

Let’s see… anything in here about willful poor, or our responsibility in discerning which of the poor are worthy of help…
Mt 25:31-46:

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”.

Hmm, I don’t see an exception there for “I was hungry and you gave me no food, because I was a freeloader and didn’t deserve it… ok, very well, step on over to the other side now, yes, with the ones on the right over there!”

how about these:
Deuteronomy:

chapter 6
10 When the LORD, your God, brings you into the land which he swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that he would give you, a land with fine, large cities that you did not build, 11with houses full of goods of all sorts that you did not garner, with cisterns that you did not dig, with vineyards and olive groves that you did not plant; and when, therefore, you eat and are satisfied, 12 be careful not to forget the LORD, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that house of slavery.

chapter 15
7 If one of your kindred is in need in any community in the land which the LORD, your God, is giving you, you shall not harden your heart nor close your hand against your kin who is in need. 8Instead, you shall freely open your hand and generously lend what suffices to meet that need. 9Be careful not to entertain the mean thought, “The seventh year, the year of remission, is near,” so that you would begrudge your kin who is in need and give nothing, and your kin would cry to the LORD against you and you would be held guilty. 10When you give, give generously and not with a stingy heart; for that, the LORD, your God, will bless you in all your works and undertakings. 11The land will never lack for needy persons; that is why I command you: “Open your hand freely to your poor and to your needy kin in your land.”

I include the one from Chapter 6 by way of reminder… none of us truly “deserves” or “worked hard” for everything we have. It ultimately by God’s generosity that we are so blessed, but we are also only building upon the work of everyone who has gone before us. None of us is truly a “self-made man”.

And let’s see, in Chapter 15 there… anything telling us that it’s up to us to decide who is worthy of charity? “Open your hand freely to your hard-working poor, but all those willing poor and freeloaders just need a swift kick in the rear end?”

 

[Bobby_Jim]

PS - when I think of the “willful poor” I think of St Francis, St Claire, St Ignatius, St Therese of Lisieux, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, and countless other holy men and women through the ages who voluntarily embraced a life of poverty and simplicity as a way to better serve Christ. Our Lord himself instructs a wealthy young man to go and sell his possessions, to become poor himself so he may help the poor. This is the example also of St Francis and St Ignatius, and many more. Something to think about before we knock people who we think “choose” to be poor!

 

[Nate13]

Let’s see… anything in here about willful poor, or our responsibility in discerning which of the poor are worthy of help…

I found it for you.

2 Thessalonians 3:6-15
New International Version (NIV)

Warning Against Idleness
6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching[a] you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”

11 We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12 Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the food they eat. 13 And as for you, brothers and sisters, never tire of doing what is good.

14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.

It has nothing to do with whether they are worthy of being helped and it is dishonest to portray it as such. Everyone is worthy of being helped. The question is whether your actually going to help them in a way that is effective at bringing about change.

 

[andrewstx]

Maybe they have a hidden or difficult to diagnose mental problem, such as lifelong depression, or a drug or alcohol problem they’re not disclosing. Something, in other words, that could be treated. I realize it’d cost a lot to require evaluations in such cases, but maybe some of these folks could be rehabilitated?

If it is truly their conscious, free, unencumbered choice, then they should try to figure out how to live cheaply - there is a social movement of people who actually choose homelessness for various reasons, and maybe these are people with more of a “nomadic” spirit. Of course, the laws in most areas of our society discourage this because these people aren’t paying taxes, and they are often seen as vagrants and such.

But if a person wants to live simply and frugally and doesn’t ask for a handout maybe that’s okay. The problem is when they want others to support them.

I am on disability for a complex mix of mental issues and it’s no picnic but I have realized I will have fewer financial resources and need to be frugal. And maybe I can add to my income with freelance means that are less stressful, I’m looking into that.

Guess it boils down to, there’s no clear-cut way of determining 100% accurately who’s “lazy” vs. who does have legitimate “issues” and maybe we need to see if we could come up with something.

Age may have something to do with it as well; some of these folks you are seeing may have been raised to be immature by parents who were themselves immature and irresponsible (and in many cases, absent altogether).

I too am on disability due to a bad stroke several years ago. I cannot work due to difficulty in cancentartion and thinking. I am not even allowed to drive.

I do get upset with the rights sometimes insistence that people are poor because they chose poverty.

Nothing could be further from the truth, and I can’t immagine anyone without mental problems who would chose poverty.

I think generalisation could be the problem.

 

[Nate13]

The question is not whether they should be helped, but rather what freedoms are you willing to give up so they can be helped? Utopia’s always sound great until you get there and realize your freedoms have been stripped from you, and the only thing you really own anymore is your own skin.

Also chew on these stats for a bit and ask yourself what the real problem…

library.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=4&page=161

Percentage Given: “The IRS reports that those who itemize deductions on their income tax returns have claimed, since 1975, that between 1.6 percent and 2.16 percent of their income went to charitable concerns. Gallup polls taken every two years for the organization Independent Sector have found charitable donations to run between 1.5 percent and 2 percent of income. Giving USA, a definitive report published by American Association of Fund-Raising Counsel, says that giving has ranged between 1.7 percent and 1.95 percent of personal income over the last 20 years.”11