Willing to go to hell

[Virginia804]

So you would want various murderers, genocidal dictators, tyrants, rapists, torturers and other evil people who died defiantly unrepentant of their sins given a second chance in Hell so we could all enjoy their company in Heaven?QUOTE]
Well, no, not unrepentant…I’d want them to be granted the grace to sincerely repent.
LOL seriously, I don’t have it all worked out and if I did I’m sure it would be heresy.
All I can say is I want everyone in heaven in the end.

I don’t remember where I heard it - I don’t believe it was in the Catechism - probably some medieval doctrine or the writings of some one long ago. But I heard that proposed when the question is asked about what about the natural sadness one would experience over knowing some loved one is in hell forever.
Something is just weird saying the beatific vision makes you forget. Well, maybe it does. Just seems like a strange answer.

In the final analysis, probably best we can do is pray for everyone who is unreconciled with God. I can’t imagine that being a poorly formed prayer.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Pauls’ statement revealed a heart which is willing to give up everything for the sake of others. This is a heart of love and I’ve heard of such sentiments sincerely expressed by others. This, I believe, can only be a work of the Holy Spirit in us.

Your right the statement from Paul is from a good and holy motive. He simply wants no one to go to hell. In the end that is all that matters. We should do everything we can too help others and ourselves avoid it and I think that is all he’s saying. Unfortunately some people reject God and are lost. Some of them will likely be those we love very much in this life- family, friends etc. It’s a good question to ask how can we be happy and not have grief at this loss and the knowledge that our loved ones are suffering great torments in hell. I don’t have all the answers but if you make it to heaven it will be like you are transformed into a new person and you will see things as God sees them as much as we can and you will be in a state of utter bliss and so filled with gratitude to God for this unending succession of blissful blessings and joy and peace you have you will just want to bless and praise God for all eternity. And indeed that’s what the church tells us we will do. Along with the angels as in the book of revelation and as we sing at mass we shall eternally sing the hymn of praise - holy, holy, holy Lord. God of power and might…
Don’t worry about losing loved ones. Just offer prayers and sacrifices for them. That’s all that is need to save someone most of the time. Talk about your faith as best you can sometimes too. God bless:thumbsup:

 

[fhansen]

It seems logical that God wants everyone in heaven and that anyone who is not there God misses. Have there been mystics or discussions about trading places with someone there?
I ask because of this passage in Romans9:1-3 it says,
1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen[a] according to the flesh,
I’ve done some research and stumbled across the desert fathers, where the possibility everyone eventually being reconciled to God is not insane. It’s more recent we’ve had the position that when you’re in hell that is permanent. (And there’s the ‘all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well’ from Julian of Norwich)
So have any of you run across any of the fathers of the church discussing this passage in Romans?

While we don’t yet know all the ins and outs of the next life, one thing we should be able to become more certain of as we grow in the faith and knowledge of God is simply this; He will always do the right thing. And so Julian of Norwichs’ “showing”, that “All shall be well” can only be undoubtedly, absolutely true with a God like ours. We can surely trust God.
**Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding Prov 3:5 **

 

[Virginia804]

Thanks, that helps me a lot.
Glad to get a reply from someone else who has read Julian.
I didn’t know until recently that the end of the four quartets by T.S. Eliot is a reference to that quote from Julian…

 

[Virginia804]

I guess part of the issue for me is that (because of my own past) I honestly can’t imagine anyone being more deserving of hell than myself, and know it was only grace that led me to repentance.

So I can’t say what went amiss if someone dies in mortal sin; I think maybe others did not pray enough for the person.

The Harrowing of Hell traditionally holds that Adam and Eve were among those release, but somehow I don’t think of them as the ‘righteous’ dead. I thought all have sinned.

It is easy to think that being in the Church is somehow our own act, but it all feels like grace, and so why do some die unrepentant? I can’t imagine that God creates a soul out of love knowing they will die unrepentant.

Anyway, here’s a link to T.S. Eliot’s poem. At the bottom of the last stanza is the reference to “All shall be well”.tristan.icom43.net/quartets/gidding.html

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

I guess part of the issue for me is that (because of my own past) I honestly can’t imagine anyone being more deserving of hell than myself, and know it was only grace that led me to repentance.

So I can’t say what went amiss if someone dies in mortal sin; I think maybe others did not pray enough for the person.

The Harrowing of Hell traditionally holds that Adam and Eve were among those release, but somehow I don’t think of them as the ‘righteous’ dead. I thought all have sinned.

It is easy to think that being in the Church is somehow our own act, but it all feels like grace, and so why do some die unrepentant? I can’t imagine that God creates a soul out of love knowing they will die unrepentant.

Anyway, here’s a link to T.S. Eliot’s poem. At the bottom of the last stanza is the reference to “All shall be well”.tristan.icom43.net/quartets/gidding.html

Very good question - why do some people go to hell? Only God can really answer that to the full. From the little I’ve learned we can never assume anyone has or will go to hell. The church has never officially taught of anyone I believe. We have fears for Judas though, but no certainty. We do know that many go there but which ones we don’t know. I think God gives everyone sufficient opportunities and help to repent as their faith dictates etc. Everyone gets grace but some reject it. You always get enough during this life though. Still doesn’t explain it all. The big mystery will be how our Lord judges us. How do you blend infinite mercy with infinite justice? It’s impossible for us to understand. I am certain our Lord will probe our whole lives to look for every possible excuse for us before he decides our fate. If he can’t find sufficient excuses we will be lost. Best just to be grateful if you have been wise and are ready when he calls you I think. I think at the final judgment all will be made known to us and we’ll see just how much God did to help those who died in sin to repent and be saved. I think in the next life we’ll understand God and these things a whole lot better and see what really went on and have a far greater understanding and appreciation of how evil and destructive sin is. Every bad thing in the world or our lives is because of sin - sickness, war, fighting, terrorism, stealing, killing, anger, jealousy, envy, calumny, earthquakes, tidal waves, all catastrophes , all suffering, all death and it’s 3-15am here and I’m tired so I must end the list and go to bed. But I hope this helps with the question. Good night and God bless

 

[Virginia804]

Thanks for your reply - also makes good sense. Please don’t stay up at 3:15 AM to answer…take your time…

I think we should hope that all may be saved.
As for Judas, he did repent, and committed suicide in despair, and the church not doesn’t write off every suicide as a mortal sin. It seems it is much more glory for God if Judas is not in hell.

We all do such dumb things at the moment - since mercy exults over justice (from the book of James) - if we mean punishment…I trust in mercy. I think we all must for everyone.

I agree that most ills are from sin, but didn’t Jesus teach that some suffering was not from sin in that case where they asked him who sinned and he said noone…

Thanks for staying with me on these far edge questions.

 

[cheeto1]

2Peter3:9 – …He wants none to perish, but all to come to
repentance.

If God desires it, then it is possible to happen, despite Jesus’
repeated descriptions of wailing and grinding of teeth.

Remember - He didn’t destroy Ninevah. But look what the people
did there before He changed His mind. Do we see that happening yet?

 

[LoverofChrist]

Thanks for your reply - also makes good sense. Please don’t stay up at 3:15 AM to answer…take your time…

I think we should hope that all may be saved.
As for Judas, he did repent, and committed suicide in despair, and the church not doesn’t write off every suicide as a mortal sin. It seems it is much more glory for God if Judas is not in hell.

I remember when The Passion came out and someone asked our priest a question about Judas being in Hell. The priest responded by saying that we never know what happens between someone and God at the moment of death and we don’t know where Judas is. I have thought of that statement many times since then and I love that response…we don’t know for sure about anyone! We can only pray for all souls to repent and make it to Heaven. I also think that even hardened criminals can make it to Heaven as long as they repent…Saint Therese of Lisieux helped such a man!

 

[Cluny]

I’ve done some research and stumbled across the desert fathers, where the possibility everyone eventually being reconciled to God is not insane.

---

Not everything the Desert Fathers say is infallible or de fide.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Thanks for your reply - also makes good sense. Please don’t stay up at 3:15 AM to answer…take your time…

I think we should hope that all may be saved.
As for Judas, he did repent, and committed suicide in despair, and the church not doesn’t write off every suicide as a mortal sin. It seems it is much more glory for God if Judas is not in hell.

We all do such dumb things at the moment - since mercy exults over justice (from the book of James) - if we mean punishment…I trust in mercy. I think we all must for everyone.

I agree that most ills are from sin, but didn’t Jesus teach that some suffering was not from sin in that case where they asked him who sinned and he said noone…

Thanks for staying with me on these far edge questions.

Hi, Yes I think I get carried away on here sometimes. Maybe I like to write too much lately. We can’t always be sure if anyone has perished because for instance as we read in St Faustinas diary I’ve heard sometimes God will grant a last chance packed with grace just before we expire if needed. Even when unconscious. Judas may have been saved in spite of what our Lord and others say. I haven’t seen the church declare he’s in hell although it looks bad.

You are very right about our illnesses and sickness not always being as a result of our personal sins. Sometimes they are and sometimes they are a gift from God. What I mean with things like these is we would have none of these evil things if Adam and Eve had not sinned. It would have been a perfect world and perfect life here for us. But because of their sin and all our sins the world is not so great. Sin is the cause of all bad things.
God has turned all the sickness and suffering into something good though. God would not allow evil unless he could bring good from it.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

While we don’t yet know all the ins and outs of the next life, one thing we should be able to become more certain of as we grow in the faith and knowledge of God is simply this; He will always do the right thing. And so Julian of Norwichs’ “showing”, that “All shall be well” can only be undoubtedly, absolutely true with a God like ours. We can surely trust God.
**Trust in the LORD with all your heart **
**and lean not on your own understanding Prov 3:5 **

Wise proverb at the end there. One would have to agree with that in the end. Too hard to figure out or understand many things with God:thumbsup:

 

[Virginia804]

Yes, trust not in my own understanding, but have faith in the love and mercy of God is what I need to do, being a control freak I take every chance to try to tell God how to run things…I hope He thinks its funny.

 

[UtSuShImI]

Virginia, I don’t think that it’s possible to “change places” with someone in hell - if I’ve understood your post correctly. In the Bible, it does say that once you’re in hell, you’re there forever, because …well think of it as being outside of time - the person’s rejection of God is permanent. I know it’s very sad which is why we should pray for the world and our loved ones as much as we can…

If some of the desert fathers spoke otherwise, - the fathers were not correct on absolutely everything, what matters is what the majority of them said. The majority of them do seem to say that hell is real and permanent… (but someone would have to give you a better answer here, sorry).

I think that it is noble to want to take someone’s place in hell so that they could go to heaven, but it’s more of a sentiment than reality. St Therese, when she was a young girl, had ideas about going to hell and praising God there because no one praises Him in that place. She wrote in her book that when she got older, she saw that while her intention was good, this can’t happen, because it’s impossible to praise God in hell and also because He wants us all to be happy in eternity.

IMO if you were to go to hell so that someone would go to Heaven… you would lose your relationship with God, and the guilt of your sins would consume you. And this wouldn’t be possible at all if you repent of your sins, because then the guilt wouldn’t exist anymore. Try to look at hell as a reality that is completely anti-God, in which there is only evil, and no good can enter there… whatever good that is in you, would disappear in hell.

well that’s how I look at it…?

God bless.

Its True! Lets look at the Parable of the Richman and Lazarus… Lazarus went to heaven and the richman went to hell… Lazarus was still then in a part of heaven called Abraham’s Bossom… richman said to abraham to let Lazarus dip his finger in water and COME TO HELL and press it on his tongue… Abraham said "NO! FOR THERE IS A FIXED GULF BETWEEN US THAT THOSE WHO WANT IN HELL TO GO TO HEAVEN CANNOT AND vice versa!

 

[Virginia804]

Acts 3:
19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

I continue to hope that everything means everything, since I still feel that heaven is not heaven until everyone is there.

 

[Danima]

It has been a few days since I was able to check up on this thread, so bear with me as I clear up a few things. Sorry for not quoting everyone, but I simply do not have the time.

The first thing I want to clear up is that the Bible mentions someone in Hell. Earlier, someone correctly mentioned the rich man and Lazarus. As for specific persons, one can look at documented exorcisms and see who is in Hell; Judas, Nero, and Hitler among them. Judas, in particular, did not repent, as was mentioned: he despaired. Despair is the unforgivable sin. Usually, this sounds scary and contrary to the very nature of God, since the God of Divine Mercy could never reject mercy to a sinner. However, when the mercy is rejected, as God allows in his wonderful gift of Free Will to us, He can do nothing. Despair is the loss of hope, hope of being reconciled to God. Suicide has always been considered a mortal sin in the Catholic Church, but those who sincerely repent, and I mean with perfect act of contrition, can still obtain the mercy of God.

I want to warn also against the so-called gospels of Peter, Judas, and whoever else may be conjured up. These are documents to separate more souls from the flock that Jesus tends, and clearly so if they completely contradict the Bible and Church teachings. Hell is permanent. So is Heaven.

It is true that God does not want anyone to be without Him, IE in Hell. (The main punishment of Hell, and the most just and fitting, is the absence of God.) However, for those who willingly refuse God in this life, they also refuse him in the next. He can send you so much grace, but if you refuse the grace, it is useless. Look at Mathew 11:23 “And thou Capharnaum, shalt thou be exalted up to heaven? thou shalt go down even unto hell. For if in Sodom had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in thee, perhaps it had remained unto this day.” You cannot give something to someone who does not want it.

God wants all to be in Heaven with Him. Many people choose to go to Hell and be without Him. What we are called to do as Christians (note that I am calling to all Christians, and not just fellow Catholics) is to offer penance, as Jesus had shown us. If you really take a close look at what penance is, you will see that it is what matters, it is goodness. It includes fasting, sacrificing, almsgiving, generosity… However, it also includes prayer, study, fulfillment of duties… When we offer to God as penance whatever we do (as long as it is not sin, of course), then it is noted. This is precisely what St. Paul is feeling for his brethren in Christ: to assume more sufferings that are lacking in the Church (Col 1:24) - and we, strong or weak, are the Church, together.

If there are any misunderstandings or further questions on anything I have posted, let me know.

 

[Virginia804]

So you think that is someone has depression and jumps off a bridge and dies that God does not have mercy? That’s not what I have heard from priests regarding suicides.
I think it is very dangerous to say we know of anyone who is for sure in hell, because it can lead to a false sense of certainty about things where they are propoperly part of the mystery of God that we don’t know about.

 

[beckycmarie]

As for specific persons, one can look at documented exorcisms and see who is in Hell; Judas, Nero, and Hitler among them.

The Church never declares anyone to be in Hell. As far as information gained in exorcisms go - demons are never a reliable source for any information.

 

[Danima]

Careful not to misquote me: I said that the Church has never declared anyone to be in Hell, but that through official exorcisms we learn of the spirits possessing human beings. After all, that is one of the first parts of the exorcism rite, to get the name of the possessor.

As for the suicide, I am not saying that God wont be merciful on the suicidal, but rather that he cannot help but be merciful. It is his nature to be merciful. However, look at the nature of mercy: it is given and received. This means that we can reject the grace of mercy. The way we can be given the grace of mercy is by going to confession, or in times of dire danger, of a perfect act of contrition. If we decide that we don’t need God, or that He cannot possibly forgive us, we reject that grace, and not even God can force it upon us. (If you have trouble swallowing this statement, mention it - I will explain it.)

This leads us to the fact of [1 mortal sin=Hell], as is stated in our Catechism, and is a well known fact in Catholicism. If we die with even one mortal sin upon our souls, we will go to Hell. Now, the person that is jumping off Niagra Falls has a few seconds of thought still available to them before they die upon the rocks (or water) below. During this time, God can grace them with the grace of repentance, upon which he can bestow mercy. Without the grace of repentance, mercy cannot exist. Does this clarify the problem?