Willingness to give people a second chance

[Bill_7154]

This is a post, prmarilly directed towards those who work in Human Resources or are hiring authorities at their place of business.

I work with people who are ‘disadvantaged’ in one way or another. The law in my state is that if someone is convicted of a misdemeanor they can get their record sealed 5 years after the last day of the dispostion of their case (like 5 years after their last day on probation) and 10 years for a felony, assuming they have no other charges that come up.

What I see in my work is lots of people who wind up addicted to drugs and to support that habit some of them turn to crime. Some go to prison. And lots of them get out of prison and seek legitmate jobs…but it seems most people dont want to hire criminals, in particular ex-felons. And I certainly understand that.

But what happens with these people is that after dozens of rejections after applying for jobs they turn to selling drugs in order to put food on the table. This obviously just creates or stustaines a cycle of someone living a life of crime.

This post is just to put in a word for people with criminal histories. I suggest for your consideration, if someone with a criminal record applies for a job at your place of business rather than outright dismissing them… consider giving them the opportunity to gather letters of reference from couselors, probation officers, people who are in AA or NA, etc as character references as many, if not most, who do crimes do so to get money for drugs. And if they are clean and stay clean they are not going to do crimes. There are those who have support networks as they are fully involved in rehabilitation, and there are those who are not. It’s pretty easy to separate the 2 through getting a series of charcter references from counselors, probation officers, etc in addtion to people who are in AA/NA that may be their sponsors.

People could fake the AA/NA references, but it would be much harder to fake a reference from a counselor or similar. It’s just one way that as a society we can work to break the cycle of crime and addiction. I have worked with ex-felons in the past and they face huge barriers to making it in the ‘straight’ world because of thier past. And this is when they are residing in a residence with supervision, subject to drug screens, going to house meetings, required to go to AA/NA meetings, particpating in counseling, and often mentoring others less far along in the recovery process than they are. I have seen and felt their struggles when they are fully committed to changing, and in fact began that process a couple of years before even meeting me, participating in AA/NA and other counseling while in prison. Then they come to a program such as one of the one’s I worked at and find it very difficult to get a job because of their criminal record.

I sumbit, for people’s consideration, someone with a criminal history, if they are able to supply several letters of recommendation detailing the recovery oriented work and rehabilitative work they are doing, that maybe they are worth givng a second chance to. By doing so you may be changing one person’s life (and often their families) for the better and saving them from a life of crime. Because eventually some of them will resort to going to sell drugs after months of rejections of job applications. A person can only take so much rejection, despite how hard they are working to change and sustain the changes they have made.

If Catholics and Christians are not going to give people second chances, who is going to?

God Bless,
Bill

 

[littlechicken]

We all pray for sinners, but then when a sinner walks through the door in an effort to change, they are treated with such contempt, they walk back out again.

Why do we hate what a person does, then treat them harshly when they repent? If we hate the life they’ve lived, shouldn’t we WANT to see them change? That way they stop hurting others.

 

[Corki]

As someone who used to work in HR, your heart is in the right place but it would be very hard to implement them, at least in the US.

1. HR can’t ask some applicants for more references than others. HR can’t keep or use any references that allude to a protected health issue. Past drug addiction is a protected condition.
2. The law prohibits many employers from hiring individuals with certain records. I worked in banking where were couldn’t hire anyone with a conviction involving theft or dishonesty - not even a misdemeanor 30 years ago.
3. To avoid claims of discrimination, employers should hire the person most qualified. Gaps in employment, involuntary terminations, spotty attendance are all common with the group of candidates you describe but would make that applicant objectively less qualified than someone else.

All that being said, I agree with you. It’s one of the reasons I don’t work in HR any more. We have created a system where anyone who has made a mistake is a pariah. They can’t get hired and if they aren’t hired, they just fall further. It is one of the biggest problems of our justice system that we don’t have a real plan to get people gainfully employed, especially after incarceration.

 

[Bill_7154]

We all pray for sinners, but then when a sinner walks through the door in an effort to change, they are treated with such contempt, they walk back out again.

Why do we hate what a person does, then treat them harshly when they repent? If we hate the life they’ve lived, shouldn’t we WANT to see them change? That way they stop hurting others.

I agree, of course. 10 years is a long time to wait (and this is in MA where the law was changed from 15 years) for a person to be able to get their record sealed if they have a felony. I can only assume, as one of the most liberal states, if not the most, in the nation, that the laws around getting records sealed are more relaxed in this state.

So a person commits a burglery to support a cocaine habit. A year later they are sentenced. If they get 2 years then get 2 years on parole 5 years have already went by before the clock starts counting down the 10 years they have to wait to get the record sealed.

There should be more programs, work programs, for ex convicts. So that when they get out of jail they at least have a fair shot at making the necessary changes in life. Without this, and without them being able to get a job, even the one’s very committed to changing are going to have one heck of a time existing without employment. Regular jobs discriminate against felons. Black market jobs, such as selling drugs, do not.

Granted, many go into jail and come out of jail not very committed to changing. Let’s forget about them for the context of this thread.

Many come out well along the path to change they started in prison. And there are halfway houses, etc they can go to so they have the support system to stay away from drugs (most have requirements where they are subjected to drug tests, have to go to AA/NA meetings, have chores, have counseling, they are required to look for work, etc…

But especially in todays economy when people without BA’s or without MA’s are ‘discriminated’ against in favor of those with higher qualifications… people with criminal records go below those who don’t even have a GED I would immagine.

So what society is saying, what society is doing, is not giving them a chance and in essence sending them back into prison where taxpayers foot the bill. I think it’s like 50K/yr to house someone in prison (could be worng, please correct me if so) and when they get out next time from their stay in ‘gadiatior school’ they may have very well given up on changing based on their experience the first time around.

So now as a society we have a career crimial who we are going to spend 50K/yr housing in prison for most of the rest of their life.

Whereas if someone took a chance on him, he could be productive and contributing to society via taxes as well as through AA/NA in helping others change, or go into counseling ex convicts or something, helping others to change as well.

I am ex homeless (I wasn’t a criminal) and started working in a homeless shelter while I was still living there. I continued to do so once I moved out. And I continue to work with ‘disadvantaged’ people. Prior to becoming homeless I think my annual income was what I pay in taxes each year now.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

As someone who used to work in HR, your heart is in the right place but it would be very hard to implement them, at least in the US…

So you agree it’s a problem, albeit one without a real solution.

1. The law prohibits many employers from hiring individuals with certain records. I worked in banking where were couldn’t hire anyone with a conviction involving theft or dishonesty - not even a misdemeanor 30 years ago…

I certainly agree that certain ex convicts are not suited for certain jobs. Certain jobs people won’t get b/c of background checks even if they are crime free. That is life and I understand that. But without solutions to giving people like ex-con’s options to earn an honest living once they get out of jail they are more or less condemed to earning a living via crime (usually drug dealing). And the longer they stay in that life the less likely they are to change. And the more times they go through the prison system the less possible it is for them to change. If they make loads of efforts upon their release the first time but hit road block after road block because of their history, eventually they are going to go back to the dark side. And after a 2nd time in prison, I would guess, most become career criminals. And we foot the (substantial) bill. And if they have a family, the family suffers and the kids grow up without a father, significantly increasing the chances they are going to follow in daddy’s foot steps (where society suffers multi-generationally via paying for their incarceration in much the same way society suffers via multi generational welfare). And of course society suffers because we loose a soul to the devil when that innocent child started out without a chance. This is probably what saddens me the most.

All that being said, I agree with you. It’s one of the reasons I don’t work in HR any more. We have created a system where anyone who has made a mistake is a pariah. They can’t get hired and if they aren’t hired, they just fall further. It is one of the biggest problems of our justice system that we don’t have a real plan to get people gainfully employed, especially after incarceration.

Interesting that you left the field because of that. That only reinforces my belief about how bad it is for the people I"m talking about.

Also, I firmly believe that the criminal justice system WANTS IT THIS WAY. We have for profit prison systems. It doesnt’ take a genius to figure out how they would go about increasing their bottom line…and the (sick) beauty of it is that they stick taxpayers with the bill and are guarenteed profits where society pays coming (building prisons, etc) and going( repeat offenders, mandatory minumums, etc).

There really should be jobs programs for ex-felons. Heck, they could even be supervised by armed guards. But I would guess this would be cheaper for taxpayers than the current system is (if for example, the jobs programs where somewhat subsidized by taxpayers). This way someone has the chance to work at some factory or something and build a few years of solid work history after prison, the longer the better.

I also think that the criminal justice system should make it easer for people to seal their records. People who can demonstrate that they have changed. The police and courts always have access to their records, but it would prevent employers access. Right now even in MA one has to wait 10 years if they have a felony… my guess is that the typical felon, if not changed their ways… couldn’t go even a few years without being re-arrested, let alone 10! And this is the law in MA, most liberal state in the country, and the law was recently changed, used to be 15 years.

How many people who do armed robberies or home invasions or similar are going to be able to get away with it for YEARS without being caught? I would suspect maybe a few very high profile type burglers who are ‘professionals’ at their ‘jobs’ who target rich people’s homes, etc might be able to do it…but the average person in prison…forget about it. I’ve worked with them, they are not the brightest of individuals.

One I know of lied about his past to get a job as a cook, what he did prior to going to jail, he did a great job…but the employer found out and apologized that they had to fire him. He turned to drug dealing. His reasoning “you have to make a dollar, you have to put food on the table.” I learned less than a year later he was arrested for selling drugs and went on the run, jumping bail. He will (if he hasn’t already) go back to prison. This is the type of guy who was invested in changing his life but will likely be a career drug dealer for the rest of his life now, going in and out of jail. He has 3 children. One, fortunately is a girl who got accepted to college so is on the right track. I fear the younger ones, given the neighborhood they live in, have at best, less than average chances of living a ‘straight’ life.

Without a real system to assist people getting out of jail who want to change we are allowing the current system to remain in place. That system creates career criminals. It’s a crying shame.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Nate13]

Hmm well there are still many options available to them. For one they could start their own business. Especially in the age of the internet this is becoming easier and easier. They could also seek jobs outside of the corporate environment in small businesses where there is more flexibility and people are not as likely to get lost in the paperwork.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

As someone who used to work in HR, your heart is in the right place but it would be very hard to implement them, at least in the US.

1. HR can’t ask some applicants for more references than others. HR can’t keep or use any references that allude to a protected health issue. Past drug addiction is a protected condition.
2. The law prohibits many employers from hiring individuals with certain records. I worked in banking where were couldn’t hire anyone with a conviction involving theft or dishonesty - not even a misdemeanor 30 years ago.
3. To avoid claims of discrimination, employers should hire the person most qualified. Gaps in employment, involuntary terminations, spotty attendance are all common with the group of candidates you describe but would make that applicant objectively less qualified than someone else.

All that being said, I agree with you. It’s one of the reasons I don’t work in HR any more. We have created a system where anyone who has made a mistake is a pariah. They can’t get hired and if they aren’t hired, they just fall further. It is one of the biggest problems of our justice system that we don’t have a real plan to get people gainfully employed, especially after incarceration.

Exactly, furthermore, as a former probation officer, I can tell you that privacy laws prohibited us from disclosing such information. Even if we could, we were so over-worked with other paperwork that going above and beyond wasn’t feasible. When I quit, I was putting in 14+ hour days and coming in on weekends to try to get caught up, but clients couldn’t seem to stop re-offending over the weekend, which would require a lot of extra paperwork that couldn’t wait.

Someone with a criminal record can still be hired, but they likely will not have a prestigious job unless they know someone willing to take a risk. The ones I worked with usually worked in the trades and were making good money (some more than me). Unfortunately, there are temporal effects of sin. Less opportunities for employment is one of them when it comes to committing crimes.

There’s also the liability factor for the employer. The employer is responsible for the safety of his employees while working. If he knowingly hires someone with an addictions issue who comes to work impaired, or has a history of violence/anger management issues, and kills or injures someone, the employer can be sued by the employee/employee’s family.

 

[Jessup]

I believe once a man has done his time, he’s done his time.
I think this nation of " Christians " who have the corporate ideology of continuing to punish after you’ve been punished to show you how worthless you are for making mistakes, has done more to motivate the liberal anti-Christ agenda then anything else.
Why should gays, drug addicts, communist, or any other anti-Christ want to follow God or a national Christian identity if this is the warm welcome of forgiveness they get from a
" Christian " society.
From what I understand most of those anti-felon laws for employment where developed in the 60’s to keep black people from owning firearms, and voting.
Working in the trades in heavy industry, I’ve had the pleasure to work with a lot of felons, most of them are the way they are because, they aren’t allowed to repent in society, by changing their life with an education, a decent job, or pursuit of happiness.
As a side note; that’s why I take no politicians; Christian identity serious. Its all a marketing sceme for them to get elected. I have a LDS friend who is the president of the relief society has a BS in Mathematics in education and can not get a job teaching because she got arrested when she was 19 for something stupid
" Ya, Great Christian Nation. "
Cheers!

 

[Bill_7154]

Hmm well there are still many options available to them. For one they could start their own business. Especially in the age of the internet this is becoming easier and easier. They could also seek jobs outside of the corporate environment in small businesses where there is more flexibility and people are not as likely to get lost in the paperwork.

I"m not sure how realisitic it is for an ex-felon to start their own business on the internet. Typcailly people who go to prison, in addtion to having a variety of different underlying issues, are also less than average when it come to intellegence. But it’s a nice thought.

Their ony real chances are in applying for jobs that do not do CORI checks (criminal background checks) or getting a job outside the coporate enviornment (not that any of them really would be able to get such a job anyways) where some of the companies don’t do CORI checks. Or getting a job at a halfway house or somewhere like that where they understand that people frequently do crimes to support drug habits and when not on drugs are at no risk of doing crimes.

If they can get funding, and have a way to support themselves as well as have the aptitude, focus, and self-discipline an optioin available to them is to get a certification or degree on addictions counseling. That field typically understands and accepts the fact that many former addicts did criminal things to get drugs. And they also often prefer to have actual ex-addicts in recovery to be counselors as they find that current addicts relate to them better, therefore they are in a better postion to help them than someone who simply went to school for it but doesn’t have any life experience of ‘the streets’ so to speak.

Another option, really just a variation on one already stated is to look for work for small companies such as landscaping, etc run by a guy who only has 1/2 dozen or so employees and often doesn’t do CORI checks.

It’s the CORI checks that kill them.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

Exactly, furthermore, as a former probation officer, I can tell you that privacy laws prohibited us from disclosing such information. Even if we could, we were so over-worked with other paperwork that going above and beyond wasn’t feasible. When I quit, I was putting in 14+ hour days and coming in on weekends to try to get caught up, but clients couldn’t seem to stop re-offending over the weekend, which would require a lot of extra paperwork that couldn’t wait.

Someone with a criminal record can still be hired, but they likely will not have a prestigious job unless they know someone willing to take a risk. The ones I worked with usually worked in the trades and were making good money (some more than me). Unfortunately, there are temporal effects of sin. Less opportunities for employment is one of them when it comes to committing crimes.

There’s also the liability factor for the employer. The employer is responsible for the safety of his employees while working. If he knowingly hires someone with an addictions issue who comes to work impaired, or has a history of violence/anger management issues, and kills or injures someone, the employer can be sued by the employee/employee’s family.

As a former probatioin officer I’m curious to know what potential solutions you think might be helpful (even if not realistic, feel free to dream) to assist those trying to change their lives for the better (and I empathize with the paperwork and caseload, I am currently dealing with the same issue although I work with clients who have major mental illness). What do you think could be done if the criminal justice system were modified in some way to make it easier for ex felons to get and sustain employment and stable productive lives?

I know there are step down phasing out of the system at least in some places where people go to less and less restrictive housing, and then onto day release for work and return to ‘jail’.

I was fortunate enough to work in a 3/4 way house that was privately funded, so we got to pick ‘the cream of the crop’ when it came to people coming out of jail who also had addictions issues. There was 1 bed for like every 20 applicants. So people not obviously very committed to changing their lives and going above and beyond and doing whatever was asked of them re: the house rules, going to AA/NA, particpating in counseling not as a requirement but because they sought help in changing, etc… so these ex offenders were rarely ‘a problem’ once they moved in. And if they became a problem they were quickly replaced by someone else. So no one trying to game the system lived there. Very occasionally, a very good con artist would get in, but their behavior spoke for itself, so a missed meeting, missed curfew, etc gave them away very, very quickly.

Plus my boss was an ex-convict himself so he had intimate knowledge of convict mentality and was particularly good at screening out people looking for a place to live and not a place to practice recovery and rehabilitaton.

What changes do you think could be made (even in a perfect world) with the system to make it easier on those who are working to change to hlep them make it?

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

I believe once a man has done his time, he’s done his time.
I think this nation of " Christians " who have the corporate ideology of continuing to punish after you’ve been punished to show you how worthless you are for making mistakes, has done more to motivate the liberal anti-Christ agenda then anything else.
Why should gays, drug addicts, communist, or any other anti-Christ want to follow God or a national Christian identity if this is the warm welcome of forgiveness they get from a
" Christian " society.
From what I understand most of those anti-felon laws for employment where developed in the 60’s to keep black people from owning firearms, and voting.
Working in the trades in heavy industry, I’ve had the pleasure to work with a lot of felons, most of them are the way they are because, they aren’t allowed to repent in society, by changing their life with an education, a decent job, or pursuit of happiness.
As a side note; that’s why I take no politicians; Christian identity serious. Its all a marketing sceme for them to get elected. I have a LDS friend who is the president of the relief society has a BS in Mathematics in education and can not get a job teaching because she got arrested when she was 19 for something stupid
" Ya, Great Christian Nation. "

Cheers!

Jessup,
I share you concerns and your views. Do you have any thoughts on what type of changes might help people who have ‘done their time’ more easily transition back into society? The laws around criminal record checks KILLS them. It hangs over their heads for a decade after the last day they got off probation/parole in MA, I’m guessing longer in other states.

What can we as Christians do to help people who have fallen, people who have done harm to society and went to jail to be punished, and are now realeased, assuming they want to do the right thing? Any and all thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[dean24us]

There’s also the liability factor for the employer. The employer is responsible for the safety of his employees while working. If he knowingly hires someone with an addictions issue who comes to work impaired, or has a history of violence/anger management issues, and kills or injures someone, the employer can be sued by the employee/employee’s family.

Based upon my experience as someone who often has to make hiring decisions, this is the key issue with hiring ex-cons. A company opens itself to significant legal liabilities if it hires people with a criminal past, and it is often safer to just bypass “questionable” candidates. At first glance, this might cold hearted, but remember that the employer has a duty to protect its employees. And since past performance is usually the best indication of future performance, employers are putting employees at risk by hiring a person who has a history of violence, addiction, etc.

With that said, my heart does go out to those that have served their time and have changed their ways. But I just don’t know what the answer is. Maybe some sort of economic incentive (tax credits, preferred SBA status, etc) would entice businesses to hire ex-cons, but you still have the issue of protecting employees.

God bless,
Dean

 

[Bill_7154]

Based upon my experience as someone who often has to make hiring decisions, this is the key issue with hiring ex-cons. A company opens itself to significant legal liabilities if it hires people with a criminal past, and it is often safer to just bypass “questionable” candidates. At first glance, this might cold hearted, but remember that the employer has a duty to protect its employees. And since past performance is usually the best indication of future performance, employers are putting employees at risk by hiring a person who has a history of violence, addiction, etc.

With that said, my heart does go out to those that have served their time and have changed their ways. But I just don’t know what the answer is. Maybe some sort of economic incentive (tax credits, preferred SBA status, etc) would entice businesses to hire ex-cons, but you still have the issue of protecting employees.

God bless,
Dean

Thanks for your suggestions, as well as pointing out the potential liabilities. Yet I am perplexed because people need to work in order to support themselves (and their families). And if they don’t work they are either going to seek getting on the government dole, or working for some sort of criminal enterprise.

And we pay financially for either of those options. I see lots of people in this forum complaning of welfare in its various forms, and am simply pointing out this segment of society that is a financial drain on the ever more an more burdened taxpayers.

It would seem to me that if people want their taxes to be less, they would want to take a look at the prison industrial complex and its costs. Examination of this (something I have not done) I believe would reveal tremendous financial costs to society.

And while I believe, like I assume most believe, that the very dangerous people need to be locked away from society, in some cases for the rest of thier lives, there is (my guess) a larger percentage that does not deserve life in prison, nor does that serve the best interests of society. I’m in favor of things like old school chain gang work for some criminals such as in cool hand luke. 10 hour work days, 6 days/week of hard labor. I’m also in favor of serious and effective rehabilitation programs for people who are going to be released back into society. This only makes sense to me. If they get released and are not rehabilitated, or on the path of rehabilitation, society is at risk and the person is pretty much going to reoffend and make the people who own the prisons more money, at the cost of taxpayers.

Certainly there is a better approach than the one used today in the USA. For example the way that non violent drug offenders are dealt with. Spending 50K/yr to house them, not to mention how much is spend on their gov’t appointed lawyers for their original case and any appeals, seems to be one area that could be looked at and changed where minimal if any increased risks would be posed to society and cost savings would be substantial. Most countries do not actively seek out to arrest, try, and convict people selling very small ammt’s of drugs the way that we do in the USA, nor do most countries spend the time and effort the USA spends in seeking out to arrest, try, and convict people for personal use ammt’s of drugs.

The statistics when looked at where the USA prison population compared to the number of people in society compared to other countries prison populations and their number of poeple in society vary greatly. And the varience is that the USA (name removed by moderator)risons far more citizens than other countires to as a % of their society.

I’m curious what those statistics looked like in the 1960’s, 1950’s, 40’s, 30’s… basically before Nixon created the ‘war on drugs’ and began throwing tons and tons of money to the ciminal justice system to seek out and arrest any and all drug users and drug sellers.

Back in the 70’s undercover police started to enter groups of people who used drugs like marijuana. And the laws at the time would make a person a drug dealer for passing a marijuana cigarette to an undercover officer for his turn to smoke it to get high.

Does anyone have access to the prison rates compared to population in the first half of the last century and then the prison rates in the 70’s to present to draw a comparison to? Is this social justice? I don’t think it is.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

As a former probatioin officer I’m curious to know what potential solutions you think might be helpful (even if not realistic, feel free to dream) to assist those trying to change their lives for the better (and I empathize with the paperwork and caseload, I am currently dealing with the same issue although I work with clients who have major mental illness). What do you think could be done if the criminal justice system were modified in some way to make it easier for ex felons to get and sustain employment and stable productive lives?

I know there are step down phasing out of the system at least in some places where people go to less and less restrictive housing, and then onto day release for work and return to ‘jail’.

I was fortunate enough to work in a 3/4 way house that was privately funded, so we got to pick ‘the cream of the crop’ when it came to people coming out of jail who also had addictions issues. There was 1 bed for like every 20 applicants. So people not obviously very committed to changing their lives and going above and beyond and doing whatever was asked of them re: the house rules, going to AA/NA, particpating in counseling not as a requirement but because they sought help in changing, etc… so these ex offenders were rarely ‘a problem’ once they moved in. And if they became a problem they were quickly replaced by someone else. So no one trying to game the system lived there. Very occasionally, a very good con artist would get in, but their behavior spoke for itself, so a missed meeting, missed curfew, etc gave them away very, very quickly.

Plus my boss was an ex-convict himself so he had intimate knowledge of convict mentality and was particularly good at screening out people looking for a place to live and not a place to practice recovery and rehabilitaton.

What changes do you think could be made (even in a perfect world) with the system to make it easier on those who are working to change to hlep them make it?

God Bless,
Bill

I live in Canada, so we don’t have private jails, or probation offices, etc. We run based on the restorative justice model, and “rehabilitation” is the main focus. Unfortunately, rehabilitation only works if the party needing rehabilitating is willing and co-operative. We have the programming, the career skills training, continuing education while in jail via distance learning, etc. What it really comes down to is whether or not the offender is going to actually actively participate in his/her sentence, or just go through the motions (many of which aren’t even willing to do that.) to get through what’s required of their sentence.

I think it would be very helpful for offenders wanting to find gainful employment is to 1) stop breaking the law, 2) actively participate in their sentence and the programs/treatment, 3) Probation officers should have assistants so they can focus more on the offender and less time on paper-pushing and playing phone-tag with other professionals and the offenders’ collateral contacts.

If you’re not going to go to your alcohol addictions rehabilitative treatment, and get drunk on the weekend, vandalize stuff and then go on a stabbing spree, then there’s really not much the system can do for you. Furthermore, probation officers shouldn’t have to take the blame for someone else’s poor use of their free will.

 

[Bill_7154]

I live in Canada, so we don’t have private jails, or probation offices, etc. We run based on the restorative justice model, and “rehabilitation” is the main focus. Unfortunately, rehabilitation only works if the party needing rehabilitating is willing and co-operative. We have the programming, the career skills training, continuing education while in jail via distance learning, etc. What it really comes down to is whether or not the offender is going to actually actively participate in his/her sentence, or just go through the motions (many of which aren’t even willing to do that.) to get through what’s required of their sentence.

I think it would be very helpful for offenders wanting to find gainful employment is to 1) stop breaking the law, 2) actively participate in their sentence and the programs/treatment, 3) Probation officers should have assistants so they can focus more on the offender and less time on paper-pushing and playing phone-tag with other professionals and the offenders’ collateral contacts.

If you’re not going to go to your alcohol addictions rehabilitative treatment, and get drunk on the weekend, vandalize stuff and then go on a stabbing spree, then there’s really not much the system can do for you. Furthermore, probation officers shouldn’t have to take the blame for someone else’s poor use of their free will.

Deo Gratias,

Thanks for the post. Of course I agree with you that for rehab to happen the person has to be invested. I’m curious to know the differences in the way that Canada runs their prisons compared to the way the usa runs theirs. I don’t think we run our prisons to really promote rehabilitation. I do know there are some options available, but my guess is that the overall ‘climate’ or ‘mileau’ of the prisons in the usa are quite different than in Canada.

Do you, or does anyone else know about the similarities/differences between the way these 2 countries run their prisons?

And which country(ies), if anyone knows, are the most geared toward rehabilitation?

Another important factor I think is the number of laws and the severity of sentences in different countries.

What is the way that Canada deals with people who are in possession of small ammt’s of drugs? Do they actively and routinely try to bully car drivers who they think fit a profile of a drug user into allowing them to search their cars in order to try and find drugs and then prosecute them, sometimes sending them to prison?

Do they actively and on a routine basis seek out and do undercover operations in order to catch people selling very small ammts of drugs (like 1 days usage or less) and then prosecute them for drug dealing?

The US does this and I think this is why we are a country that has a huge % of our population in prison compared to other countries.

It’s my understanding that most all other countries, even if they have laws against small ammts of drugs in one’s possession, or crimes against selling very small ammts of drugs, that they do NOT spend significant time, effort, resources in order to apprehend these people, prosecute them, incarcerate them (in some circumstances) and have them wind up with criminal records in all cases (unless found innocent) which interferes with their ability to get employement.

I think this is a major difference between the USA and most other countries and why we have such a high % of people in prison when there can easily be made arguments against such practices and when many other countries do not engage in such practices.

This costs us money and puts people on the cycle of being a career criminal by giving them a criminal record which interferes with them getting employment. It does not need to be this way. And even if the war on drugs continued, police practices could be changed where they dont’ actively seek to apprehend people with small ammts of drugs or do undercover work to arrest people selling 1 hit of some drug.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Jerome7]

morally, whether or not you should give someone a second chance depends on the situation. If hiring a person with a history of crimes or drugs might do more harm than good, then I don’t think you can ‘give them a second chance’. So, it would have to be a type of job that would be suitable for the individual.

 

[CopticChristian]

This is a post, prmarilly directed towards those who work in Human Resources or are hiring authorities at their place of business.

I work with people who are ‘disadvantaged’ in one way or another. The law in my state is that if someone is convicted of a misdemeanor they can get their record sealed 5 years after the last day of the dispostion of their case (like 5 years after their last day on probation) and 10 years for a felony, assuming they have no other charges that come up.

What I see in my work is lots of people who wind up addicted to drugs and to support that habit some of them turn to crime. Some go to prison. And lots of them get out of prison and seek legitmate jobs…but it seems most people dont want to hire criminals, in particular ex-felons. And I certainly understand that.

But what happens with these people is that after dozens of rejections after applying for jobs they turn to selling drugs in order to put food on the table. This obviously just creates or stustaines a cycle of someone living a life of crime.

This post is just to put in a word for people with criminal histories. I suggest for your consideration, if someone with a criminal record applies for a job at your place of business rather than outright dismissing them… consider giving them the opportunity to gather letters of reference from couselors, probation officers, people who are in AA or NA, etc as character references as many, if not most, who do crimes do so to get money for drugs. And if they are clean and stay clean they are not going to do crimes. There are those who have support networks as they are fully involved in rehabilitation, and there are those who are not. It’s pretty easy to separate the 2 through getting a series of charcter references from counselors, probation officers, etc in addtion to people who are in AA/NA that may be their sponsors.

People could fake the AA/NA references, but it would be much harder to fake a reference from a counselor or similar. It’s just one way that as a society we can work to break the cycle of crime and addiction. I have worked with ex-felons in the past and they face huge barriers to making it in the ‘straight’ world because of thier past. And this is when they are residing in a residence with supervision, subject to drug screens, going to house meetings, required to go to AA/NA meetings, particpating in counseling, and often mentoring others less far along in the recovery process than they are. I have seen and felt their struggles when they are fully committed to changing, and in fact began that process a couple of years before even meeting me, participating in AA/NA and other counseling while in prison. Then they come to a program such as one of the one’s I worked at and find it very difficult to get a job because of their criminal record.

I sumbit, for people’s consideration, someone with a criminal history, if they are able to supply several letters of recommendation detailing the recovery oriented work and rehabilitative work they are doing, that maybe they are worth givng a second chance to. By doing so you may be changing one person’s life (and often their families) for the better and saving them from a life of crime. Because eventually some of them will resort to going to sell drugs after months of rejections of job applications. A person can only take so much rejection, despite how hard they are working to change and sustain the changes they have made.

If Catholics and Christians are not going to give people second chances, who is going to?

God Bless,
Bill

Bill,

I would have a hard time hiring anyone with a drug/alcohol history that is mired in AA. These people falsely believe that they are diseased. If they believe that hogwash then I question the ability of their mind to cipher what is true.

 

[CopticChristian]

Thanks for your suggestions, as well as pointing out the potential liabilities. Yet I am perplexed because people need to work in order to support themselves (and their families). And if they don’t work they are either going to seek getting on the government dole, or working for some sort of criminal enterprise.

And we pay financially for either of those options. I see lots of people in this forum complaning of welfare in its various forms, and am simply pointing out this segment of society that is a financial drain on the ever more an more burdened taxpayers.

It would seem to me that if people want their taxes to be less, they would want to take a look at the prison industrial complex and its costs. Examination of this (something I have not done) I believe would reveal tremendous financial costs to society.

And while I believe, like I assume most believe, that the very dangerous people need to be locked away from society, in some cases for the rest of thier lives, there is (my guess) a larger percentage that does not deserve life in prison, nor does that serve the best interests of society. I’m in favor of things like old school chain gang work for some criminals such as in cool hand luke. 10 hour work days, 6 days/week of hard labor. I’m also in favor of serious and effective rehabilitation programs for people who are going to be released back into society. This only makes sense to me. If they get released and are not rehabilitated, or on the path of rehabilitation, society is at risk and the person is pretty much going to reoffend and make the people who own the prisons more money, at the cost of taxpayers.

Certainly there is a better approach than the one used today in the USA. For example the way that non violent drug offenders are dealt with. Spending 50K/yr to house them, not to mention how much is spend on their gov’t appointed lawyers for their original case and any appeals, seems to be one area that could be looked at and changed where minimal if any increased risks would be posed to society and cost savings would be substantial. Most countries do not actively seek out to arrest, try, and convict people selling very small ammt’s of drugs the way that we do in the USA, nor do most countries spend the time and effort the USA spends in seeking out to arrest, try, and convict people for personal use ammt’s of drugs.

The statistics when looked at where the USA prison population compared to the number of people in society compared to other countries prison populations and their number of poeple in society vary greatly. And the varience is that the USA (name removed by moderator)risons far more citizens than other countires to as a % of their society.

I’m curious what those statistics looked like in the 1960’s, 1950’s, 40’s, 30’s… basically before Nixon created the ‘war on drugs’ and began throwing tons and tons of money to the ciminal justice system to seek out and arrest any and all drug users and drug sellers.

Back in the 70’s undercover police started to enter groups of people who used drugs like marijuana. And the laws at the time would make a person a drug dealer for passing a marijuana cigarette to an undercover officer for his turn to smoke it to get high.

Does anyone have access to the prison rates compared to population in the first half of the last century and then the prison rates in the 70’s to present to draw a comparison to? Is this social justice? I don’t think it is.

God Bless,
Bill

Bill,

The drug world is oppressive. You have posted on LEAP. I understand your point of view. You may want to ask yourself how China got rid of the opium addiction. This is a piece of the puzzle that warrants consideration.

revcom.us/a/china/opium.htm

By the end of 1951 the New China News Agency announced that the drug problem had been ``fundamentally wiped out’’ in northern China (which had been liberated first). Southern China, which included many opium-growing areas, took another year or so.

Maoist revolution rejected the whole BOURGEOIS approach to drugs: Maoism is not about a few reforms, some money for drug rehabilitation.'' It's not about individual solutions’’ through one-on-one therapy. It’s not about filling prisons with addicts while allowing big capitalists to get rich on drug trade. It is not about the hypocrisy and useless moralism of the preachers. Any talk about getting rid of drugs without proletarian revolution is just a pipe dream.

. Using Maoist methods, the revolutionary masses got rid of prostitution, sale of children, brutal poverty, illiteracy, unemployment, wife beating, crime, police brutality, and so on. The revolution completely changed the lives and thinking of millions and millions of people. It led the people to do things that were unthinkable only a couple years before.

 

[djames99]

Another problem. Legislation does not fault an employer for not writing on the job description that a criminal check is required. Past offenders try for jobs carefully selecting those where their record is not an issue. They don’t want to intrude or cause an employer to be uncomfortable with firing him and altogether creating an unpleasant situation.

At the interview they ask as an afterthought, or think about it years down the road and ask then. They fire him only then. I think this is borderline discrimination at this point.

 

[djames99]

From:

Doubts on death row

By RUBIN (HURRICANE) CARTER, March 5, 2005

The Death of Innocents: An Eyewitness Account of Wrongful Executions
By Sister Helen Prejean (Dead Man Walking)
Random House, 310 pages, $35.95

"The Death of Innocents is a profoundly disturbing and horrifying demonstration that, once a jury has found a person guilty, it takes a monumental effort to reverse that decision. That’s why competent counsel is necessary. There is a great deal at stake in upholding criminal convictions. Careers, political and otherwise, are built on these convictions. Successful police officers are promoted, successful prosecution attorneys become judges, and a successful judge is one who is seldom reversed on appeal.

Even at the best of times, nobody likes to admit fault. But when admitting that a mistake has been made begins to threaten one’s own professional standing – one’s own career – then justice becomes a very personal matter. Establishing that one, or one’s colleague, did not make a mistake becomes much more important than the possible innocence of the person convicted."