Willingness to give people a second chance

[Bill_7154]

Bill,

I would have a hard time hiring anyone with a drug/alcohol history that is mired in AA. These people falsely believe that they are diseased. If they believe that hogwash then I question the ability of their mind to cipher what is true.

CopticChristian,

While I respect your opinions a great deal, and value you as a poster here, in all honesty where would this lie in the order of all reasons to not give a person a job from your personal perspective.

Let’s say starting with someone being a known socio-path with a history of murder and at the bottom of the list of 1,000 reasons being something like didn’t eat all their veggies when they were a little kid?

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

Bill,

The drug world is oppressive. You have posted on LEAP. I understand your point of view. You may want to ask yourself how China got rid of the opium addiction. This is a piece of the puzzle that warrants consideration.

revcom.us/a/china/opium.htm

CopticChristian,

Interesting. Although I don’t see the us gov’t allowing or supporting such a ‘revolution’. It would be nice if the following happened:

“This revolutionary policy treated all poor people as brothers and sisters. Poor addicts and dealers got ``A WAY OUT’’ of the drug trade. They were given jobs and were encouraged to join the struggle for a new society.”

in addtion to the other stuff in the link that was spoken about, but do you think that it’s feasible, as in would it ever happen or could it happen in the us? And in a way I guess that sort of begs the question about would it ever happen that the us gov’t would allow drugs to be legalized, so in all I think it’s great that you shared this link.

Just about anything than the current policy with respect to the war on drugs would be better IMO than what we have now, so cudos to you for sharing this historical example of how a country rid itself of drug use!

Maybe both have the same likelyhood of happening, which is probably slim to nil in our lifetimes, but I think it’s a very important topic, one which people should be thinking about and recongnizing that the current policy is a complete failure, so most any other approach I think is worth consideration and worth a try.

Thanks agian for another great contribution to this forum CopticChristian,

God Bless,
Bill

 

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian,

While I respect your opinions a great deal, and value you as a poster here, in all honesty where would this lie in the order of all reasons to not give a person a job from your personal perspective.

Let’s say starting with someone being a known socio-path with a history of murder and at the bottom of the list of 1,000 reasons being something like didn’t eat all their veggies when they were a little kid?

God Bless,
Bill

Bill,

I had a hard time treating patients with AIDS/Kaposi sarcoma, people that attempted suicide…but I did it…I would have a hard time…just means what I said…

Concerning Sociopaths…it takes time to figure that out…I have a barrier to dysfunctional thinking and dysfunctional people so I imagine it would be easy to figure that out.

Vegetables are another matter. This would require some deep thought…you may want to consult some of the Vegan threads and see what I mean…

 

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian,

Interesting. Although I don’t see the us gov’t allowing or supporting such a ‘revolution’. It would be nice if the following happened:

“This revolutionary policy treated all poor people as brothers and sisters. Poor addicts and dealers got ``A WAY OUT’’ of the drug trade. They were given jobs and were encouraged to join the struggle for a new society.”

in addtion to the other stuff in the link that was spoken about, but do you think that it’s feasible, as in would it ever happen or could it happen in the us? And in a way I guess that sort of begs the question about would it ever happen that the us gov’t would allow drugs to be legalized, so in all I think it’s great that you shared this link.

Just about anything than the current policy with respect to the war on drugs would be better IMO than what we have now, so cudos to you for sharing this historical example of how a country rid itself of drug use!

Maybe both have the same likelyhood of happening, which is probably slim to nil in our lifetimes, but I think it’s a very important topic, one which people should be thinking about and recongnizing that the current policy is a complete failure, so most any other approach I think is worth consideration and worth a try.

Thanks agian for another great contribution to this forum CopticChristian,

God Bless,
Bill

Bill,

The point of presenting that piece was China changed the way people think. You are trying to change the way people think…

As we think and believe so we act…and it is difficult to change the way people think and believe…

 

[iloveangels]

This is a post, prmarilly directed towards those who work in Human Resources or are hiring authorities at their place of business…

God Bless,
Bill

I think they should have to compete, like anyone else.

 

[iloveangels]

This is a post, prmarilly directed towards those who work in Human Resources or are hiring authorities at their place of business…

God Bless,
Bill

I find these kinds of requests really puzzling. I have no idea why a business, that is not a social welfare organization, should be asked to abandon the reason it exists for these kinds of exceptions.

I mean I could possibly see hiring a talented person who has a handicap, but I’m not sure why a business would hire someone with a behavior difficulty that would interfere with the business. Businesses are not peoples’ hobbies and do not exist to make people feel good. Business owners with those kinds of attitudes usually aren’t business owners long because they don’t “get it.”

 

[djames99]

The task to everyone in the justice system is to ensure that every means must effect the end of closure. This means that whatever effect something is designed to make, is to have closure has it’s end. He is to oppose every order that goes against God’s rule in conscientious object.

2Cor 2,6 is unique in scripture in that it sets a precedent against the common good. St. Paul states to a collective that they must now stop perpetual punishment to their own brethren. What sentence he was given and complete is final. The procured for a price and readily available criminal record is now designed has an extension of the sentencing process, and the nation should now take action and place it back as it’s intended purpose as an instrument for monitoring the activities of the citizen by the police and kept in a safe and discrete location. But this as far the state can justifiably take it.

It is questionable if a person who can no longer exercise his rights of constitution liberties is a citizen at all. This extended sentencing is an exile in fact. The citizen is no longer a citizen since the constitution does not define classes of citizens who by law or implication of legislation mirror conditions of non citizenship. He can in this state swear his allegiance to no one, define his own diplomatic protocol, and make alliances with anyone he chooses. He is in effect a foreigner in a foreign nation.

Frankly, I’d rather have a person who makes a first misdemeanor have automatic expungment and given a second chance, as I would do for my own family members. Being Christian everyone is my family, and I cannot treat anyone differently in the world, regardless if public servant or not. I would hate to explain to God that out of our hardened heart, because this guy who now realizes he is his own nation, decided to take his US trained armament expertese, paid for by us, to a muslim bar in Manhattan.

I don’t think I could never gauge who is receiving temporal punishment, as that is not what he expects from us to do. We are being asked to ensure closure and put trust in God. We don’t need to trust anyone but God. Under the new law where we are justified by faith we are being asked to hope for each other.

“77 X 7” doesn’t inspire trust, and it is not meant to, hope is what we offer our neighbour, a hope he will finally see the wrong and mend his life.

 

[djames99]

The task to everyone in the justice system is to ensure that every means must effect the end of closure. This means that whatever effect something is designed to make, is to have closure has it’s end. He is to oppose every order that goes against God’s rule in conscientious object.

2Cor 2,6 is unique in scripture in that it sets a precedent against the common good. St. Paul states to a collective that they must now stop perpetual punishment to their own brethren. What sentence he was given and complete is final. The procured for a price and readily available criminal record is now designed has an extension of the sentencing process, and the nation should now take action and place it back as it’s intended purpose as an instrument for monitoring the activities of the citizen by the police and kept in a safe and discrete location. But this as far the state can justifiably take it.

It is questionable if a person who can no longer exercise his rights of constitution liberties is a citizen at all. This extended sentencing is an exile in fact. The citizen is no longer a citizen since the constitution does not define classes of citizens who by law or implication of legislation mirror conditions of non citizenship. He can in this state swear his allegiance to no one, define his own diplomatic protocol, and make alliances with anyone he chooses. He is in effect a foreigner in a foreign nation.

Frankly, I’d rather have a person who makes a first misdemeanor have automatic expungment and given a second chance, as I would do for my own family members. Being Christian everyone is my family, and I cannot treat anyone differently in the world, regardless if public servant or not. I would hate to explain to God that out of our hardened heart, because this guy who now realizes he is his own nation, decided to take his US trained armament expertise, paid for by us, to a Muslim bar in Manhattan.

I don’t think I could never gauge who is receiving temporal punishment, as that is not what he expects from us to do. We are being asked to ensure closure and put trust in God. We don’t need to trust anyone but God. Under the new law where we are justified by faith we are being asked to hope for each other.

“77 X 7” doesn’t inspire trust, and it is not meant to, hope is what we offer our neighbor, a hope he will finally see the wrong and mend his life.

 

[iloveangels]

Not even Catholic businesses are required to shoot themselves in the head over this. There are regular employees who depend on the livelihoods that the businesses provide and they have to be thought of too! It just doesn’t make sense.

 

[djames99]

Not even Catholic businesses are required to shoot themselves in the head over this. There are regular employees who depend on the livelihoods that the businesses provide and they have to be thought of too! It just doesn’t make sense.

There would be no fault to the Catholic employer in his generosity. We cannot choose to accept partial doctrine, besides the methods used don’t work and our methods have never changed through the ages. We observe by the experiential and in our relative time. Results have never been promised by the Holy Spirit to manifest in our generation. We cannot give the Holy Spirit a calender with a timetable with a circled date of our expectation.
We are mandated to give God the benefit of the doubt.

“Who can accept such teaching?” Sanhedrin hearing Christ’s message.

 

[iloveangels]

There would be no fault to the Catholic employer in his generosity. We cannot choose to accept partial doctrine, besides the methods used don’t work and our methods have never changed through the ages. We observe by the experiential and in our relative time. Results have never been promised by the Holy Spirit to manifest in our generation. We cannot give the Holy Spirit a calender with a timetable with a circled date of our expectation.
We are mandated to give God the benefit of the doubt.

“Who can accept such teaching?” Sanhedrin hearing Christ’s message.

I have no idea what you are going on about. Businesses can’t stay in business if people aren’t prepared to work. It’s just that simple. If businesses fail, people lose their jobs, and then their families suffer.

 

[Bill_7154]

Bill,

I had a hard time treating patients with AIDS/Kaposi sarcoma, people that attempted suicide…but I did it…I would have a hard time…just means what I said…

Concerning Sociopaths…it takes time to figure that out…I have a barrier to dysfunctional thinking and dysfunctional people so I imagine it would be easy to figure that out.

Vegetables are another matter. This would require some deep thought…you may want to consult some of the Vegan threads and see what I mean…

Come on man, you know what I mean. Plus I said ‘known sociopath’. I’m interested in knowing how disfuctional you view those who are in AA relative to society at large, that’s all.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

Bill,

The point of presenting that piece was China changed the way people think. You are trying to change the way people think…

As we think and believe so we act…and it is difficult to change the way people think and believe…

I agree, although I did not pick up on the fact that you meant it as purely to make that point. I’m not stupid, but I’m definitely not the sharpest pencil in the bunch either.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

I find these kinds of requests really puzzling. I have no idea why a business, that is not a social welfare organization, should be asked to abandon the reason it exists for these kinds of exceptions.

I mean I could possibly see hiring a talented person who has a handicap, but I’m not sure why a business would hire someone with a behavior difficulty that would interfere with the business. Businesses are not peoples’ hobbies and do not exist to make people feel good. Business owners with those kinds of attitudes usually aren’t business owners long because they don’t “get it.”

Look at it this way. You either view the current way the criminal justice system operates and impacts people’s ability to get future employment or you don’t. If you do, you either recognize that those in the criminal justice sytem are a drain on society financially or you don’t.

If you do, you either think that there may be a way to change the system as it exists or you don’t.

If you do, you maybe have an idea on how to change something so they are less of a drain and more productive or you don’t.

Understand?

God Bless,
Bill

 

[iloveangels]

Look at it this way. You either view the current way the criminal justice system operates and impacts people’s ability to get future employment or you don’t. If you do, you either recognize that those in the criminal justice sytem are a drain on society financially or you don’t.

If you do, you either think that there may be a way to change the system as it exists or you don’t.

If you do, you maybe have an idea on how to change something so they are less of a drain and more productive or you don’t.

Understand?

God Bless,
Bill

The criminal justice system is what it is. It doesn’t really have anything to do with hiring. I’m out of the thread.

 

[Bill_7154]

Not even Catholic businesses are required to shoot themselves in the head over this. There are regular employees who depend on the livelihoods that the businesses provide and they have to be thought of too! It just doesn’t make sense.

I’m only familiar with the way things work in my state, but…

Do you think the system as it exists today is perfect in your state? In the nation? Prior to any changes that have been made over the past 5 years did you think that it was perfect then?

If it is to change again in the future, will you think it perfect then?

It’s easy to generalize, but those who have criminal records are a drain on society. How long should they be a drain for? Do you recognize that those with criminal records are more likely to go back to criminal behavior due to their record and not being able to readily get a job? Do you think that all of individuals in these circumstances are the same? Do you think they should all be treated the same way?

Should their criminal record follow them in the eyse of any potential future employer for the rest of their lives? If so, do you recognize that this, in effect, is encouraging future criminal behavior? Is this good or bad in your eyes?

Why not just keep everyone in jail for life? Is there a reason to let anyone out?

Or are you one of these folks who conveniently doesn’t have opinions of their own and supports the status quo, regardless of whatever that is? Do you think that you might be smarter than, or have an idea that is superior to any people involved in drafting laws? Maybe you don’t. Maybe you automatically support the status quo regardless of whatever that is. What kind of person does that make you? I’m asking because I’m not sure how to classify such a person. Someone without opinions about the status quo and somoene who may possibly have a thought or idea about the status quo, that if implemented might possibly make the world a better place.

It takes courage to stand up and challenge the status quo. And progress can not and will not ever be made if men do not stand up and challenge the status quo. And all this is is an internet forum, your not really being asked to stick your neck out very far by offering an opionion on the status quo and if it could possibly be improved upon in one or more ways.

More importantly, do you believe in giving poeple second chances? Have you ever been given a second chance in your life? Would you like for your children to be given the opportunity to be given a second chance (around one issue or another) at some point in their lives?

God Bless,
Bill

 

[djames99]

What do you mean participate in his sentence?. If he is required to serve 2 years, that’s all that is required of him. If you want to attach baggage to that, state it at sentencing as baggage.

As I understand it your system just marginalized hundreds of potential offenders who want to obtain pardons by adding an astronomical pardon fee hike from 150 to …600 dollars. This even without a promise of a mediocre charitable gesture of speeded up pardons or improved services to justify it. Misdemeanor pardons could take up to 2 years they say, but cases go to 4. Could it be, perhaps your system likes to give that subtle jab on occasion for all it’s worth, since the nation gives you carte blanche to do what you want to defenseless people.?. All this not missed by our Lord.

Your rehabilitation model is victim oriented, pays little attention to the offender, and forgets the judge is representative of the victim also. A sentence thus satisfies the victim’s case, and here is the place she needs to address any issues she has with the sentence and what she thinks he should receive, and her after the fact (name removed by moderator)ut, is therefore irrelevant, even in the eyes of God since the insincerity of the state is duly noted.

Your pardon system is unmonitored and autonomous and it shows it by the excesses. I know of a case where a successful offender was able to restore his business and was doing well. Reporting to his parole agent this good news, which you would think the interests would be common, his place of work and premises were raided by the police for some trivial nonsense. His wife had articles broken and his kids were traumatized. (some non Catholics believe this is temporal punishment). His lawyer agreed with him. Instead of contributing and assisting his success, a jealousy that an offender can actually succeed was displayed.

The requirement that counsel needs to exercise a zealous defense, common in the US, is not legislated, and judges will not dismiss an incompetent counsel for the defense. I have seen cases where the defense paid for his counsel, who suggested to state his story as the defense, then did not have a backup plan B if the opposition won his point.
Oh, he did ask for a lessor sentence…

Offenders cannot obtain jobs even for one time misdemeanors.

Your police commissioners when in that capacity are in conflict of interest when they give their opinion due to press question on what punishment a person is deserving. He should state that he is not in the position to do so. He stated 2000$ for a seat belt offense. He should have given his opinion has a private citizen.

There is an increase in beat ups, and always an attempt to cover up. The same department is typically handed the task to investigate. The public needs to wring out any admittance of wrongdoing by anyone.

This is additional to my post in this thread about Sister Prejean’s finding.

 

[Bill_7154]

I have no idea what you are going on about. Businesses can’t stay in business if people aren’t prepared to work. It’s just that simple.

Where in the heck did this come from? Are you now making up stuff to support your point (which I have no idea what that is). I’m hoping you don’t coward away from answering my previous post in detail, it would be a shame if you did and would speak volumes about you as a peson if you choose to hide your beliefs when asked directly with several different questions that are quite relevant. I pray you have the strength to make an honest effort to answer them.

I’m new here, and newly Catholic, away from the Church for almost 2 decades and a sinner of not small propotions during much of that time. But I have repented and have nothing to hid about my beliefs. I am here to share with other Catholics in hopes of making the world a better place. But I believe that takes honesty and revealing our beliefs with others and communicating above board about topics one chooses to start discussing.

I believe that ducking and dodging are not works of God or Jesus Christ, I believe they are manfiestations of what the devil would lke to see and have happen to the huma race. And what faction of the human race is left to stand up for what God and Jesus would have happen betwen his children if not Catholics?

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

What do you mean participate in his sentence?. If he is required to serve 2 years, that’s all that is required of him. If you want to attach baggage to that, state it at sentencing as baggage.

As I understand it your system just marginalized hundreds of potential offenders who want to obtain pardons by adding an astronomical pardon fee hike from 150 to …600 dollars. This even without a promise of a mediocre charitable gesture of speeded up pardons or improved services to justify it. Misdemeanor pardons could take up to 2 years they say, but cases go to 4. Could it be, perhaps your system likes to give that subtle jab on occasion for all it’s worth, since the nation gives you carte blanche to do what you want to defenseless people.?. All this not missed by our Lord.

Your rehabilitation model is victim oriented, pays little attention to the offender, and forgets the judge is representative of the victim also. A sentence thus satisfies the victim’s case, and here is the place she needs to address any issues she has with the sentence and what she thinks he should receive, and her after the fact (name removed by moderator)ut, is therefore irrelevant, even in the eyes of God since the insincerity of the state is duly noted.

Your pardon system is unmonitored and autonomous and it shows it by the excesses. I know of a case where a successful offender was able to restore his business and was doing well. Reporting to his parole agent this good news, which you would think the interests would be common, his place of work and premises were raided by the police for some trivial nonsense. His wife had articles broken and his kids were traumatized. (some non Catholics believe this is temporal punishment). His lawyer agreed with him. Instead of contributing and assisting his success, a jealousy that an offender can actually succeed was displayed.

The requirement that counsel needs to exercise a zealous defense, common in the US, is not legislated, and judges will not dismiss an incompetent counsel for the defense. I have seen cases where the defense paid for his counsel, who suggested to state his story as the defense, then did not have a backup plan B if the opposition won his point.
Oh, he did ask for a lessor sentence…

Offenders cannot obtain jobs even for one time misdemeanors.

Your police commissioners when in that capacity are in conflict of interest when they give their opinion due to press question on what punishment a person is deserving. He should state that he is not in the position to do so. He stated 2000$ for a seat belt offense. He should have given his opinion has a private citizen.

There is an increase in beat ups, and always an attempt to cover up. The same department is typically handed the task to investigate. The public needs to wring out any admittance of wrongdoing by anyone.

This is additional to my post in this thread about Sister Prejean’s finding.

If your not from the USA you have NO IDEA how much more oppressive the system is than you state in your post. I stopped reading most of the way through the second paragraph because your sooo off base it is unfortunately, ridiculous (this is in no way meant to insult you, simply to point out how far from reality your understanding of the way the us system works).

God Bless,
Bill

 

[djames99]

So if your son comes to your store just out of jail and drug rehab, slate clean and says, “dad, can you give me some work so I can pay for Jenny’s formula milk”, your going to say “no thanks, no second chances here”

That’s well,…impressive. But at least no one can charge you with a double standards.

I couldn’t say it.