Wine till the time of John the Baptist.

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I understand from (Luke 1:11-15) that wine or any fermented drink is not something that God wants us to drink, what do you think?

“Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.”
 
Sam_777 said:
I understand from (Luke 1:11-15) that wine or any fermented drink is not something that God wants us to drink, what do you think?

“Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.”
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Keep the text in its context. The angel was addressing Elizabeth about John.

How do you see ‘us’ in there? Is your name ‘John’ too?
 
Deconi said:
Keep the text in its context. The angel was addressing Elizabeth about John.

How do you see ‘us’ in there? Is your name ‘John’ too?
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And why God doesn’t want “John” to drink wine…😉

Actually I see us in there specially if I linked that to (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) where drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God.
 
Sam_777 said:
And why God doesn’t want “John” to drink wine…😉

Actually I see us in there specially if I linked that to (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) where drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God.
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That’s actually not true!

Noah was a drunk!

King David and all the kings of Israel must have indulged in more than a few beverages!?

The first miracle Jesus performed in public was changing water to wine! Wine makes people drunk!

Are you suggesting God is the author of something that prevents an individual from inheriting His Kingdom? NOT LIKELY.

Again I say, keep things in their context.

:cool:
 
Sam_777 said:
And why God doesn’t want “John” to drink wine…😉

Actually I see us in there specially if I linked that to (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) where drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God.
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John was to be dedicated as permanent Nazirite-no grape products of any kind were permitted.
 
Deconi said:
That’s actually not true!
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What is not true!!! (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)?
Wine makes people drunk!
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Not if taken in a small portion…
Are you suggesting God is the author of something that prevents an individual from inheriting His Kingdom? NOT LIKELY.
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God is the author of everything, good and bad, light and darkness, its us whom have to choose the right path…

If you know that drinking wine will lead to addiction then drunkenness, then why drinking it in the first place!, why not treating it as a medicine, which should be taken only in the Church and not in homes nor the pubs.
 
I have altered your quote with red, to help you see where I am looking.
Sam_777 said:
I understand from (Luke 1:11-15) that wine or any fermented drink is not something that God wants us to drink, what do you think?

“Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.”
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I see the angel talking to Zechariah about his son John. John is a particular person. *He *is never going to drink wine. It probably means to say that he will be some type of Nazirite, like Samuel. So, in my view, this particular passage is not a command to us about wine.

However, I do think there are other passages in the bible which address us about drinking too much wine. We ought not get drunk.

In case if you have never noticed this passage, here is one where Jesus mentions both John and himself:

Matthew11:16 "But to what will I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to one another, 17 ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we wailed, and you did not mourn.’ 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon’; 19 the Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.

In case if you are not familiar, the Son of Man here refers to Jesus.
 
I think it is obvious that God wants to give us, the human race in general, the gift of wine. Reasons for this include, but are not limited to:
  1. References in the Old Testament (I can never find exact quotes when I am looking for them, so some Scripture scholar could help me out here) to “thank you God for wine that makes us merry”
  2. The fact that yeast occurs naturally on the grapes. God put it there. Without the very modern invention of pasteurization grape juice becomes wine quickly.
  3. Of course the miracle at Cana.
  4. The requirement that wine (not grape juice, milk, water, Coke…) be used in the Eucharist
  5. The fact that the Church has never, NEVER been called to ban wine
It is also clear that a correct appreciation of this gift means using it properly. Using it properly does not include getting drunk, especially not habitually. Drunkenness is a great offense against the goodness of wine. A drunk cannot appreciate the goodness that is in wine.

There are many good gifts from God that some people are required, as part of their service to God, to give up for a time, or permanently. Meat is good, but we are all required to refrain from meat at certain times, and some people might offer that sacrifice permanently. Enjoyment of physical relations between man and wife is a gift from God, but some people live a life dedicated to God which does not include that gift. That does not mean that they should try to convince anyone else that the gift is not good.
 
RSD said:
I think it is obvious that God wants to give us, the human race in general, the gift of wine. Reasons for this include, but are not limited to:

1) References in the Old Testament (I can never find exact quotes when I am looking for them, so some Scripture scholar could help me out here) to "thank you God for wine that makes us merry"
  1. The fact that yeast occurs naturally on the grapes. God put it there. Without the very modern invention of pasteurization grape juice becomes wine quickly.
  2. Of course the miracle at Cana.
  3. The requirement that wine (not grape juice, milk, water, Coke…) be used in the Eucharist
  4. The fact that the Church has never, NEVER been called to ban wine
It is also clear that a correct appreciation of this gift means using it properly. Using it properly does not include getting drunk, especially not habitually. Drunkenness is a great offense against the goodness of wine. A drunk cannot appreciate the goodness that is in wine.

There are many good gifts from God that some people are required, as part of their service to God, to give up for a time, or permanently. Meat is good, but we are all required to refrain from meat at certain times, and some people might offer that sacrifice permanently. Enjoyment of physical relations between man and wife is a gift from God, but some people live a life dedicated to God which does not include that gift. That does not mean that they should try to convince anyone else that the gift is not good.
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Ecclesiastes 9- is this the one you are thinking about?

7Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do.
 
Drinking is ok; drunkenness is not (Eph. 5:18, etc.). We know that Jesus drank, because in Luke 7:34, His enemies try to use this to paint Him as a drunkard.

So, Jesus clearly wasn’t a Prohibitionist, or His wedding wine would have been bootleg. But He is into Temperance in all things, including alcohol.
 
jakasaki said:
Ecclesiastes 9- is this the one you are thinking about?

7Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do.
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That is one of them, thank you.
 
As others have said, the verse quoted in the OP refers specifically to St. John the Baptist, and is not to be taken as a command for everyone. Otherwise how do you explain the fact that Jesus and his disciples drank, having come after St. John?

Also as people have said, in other parts the Bible does command toleration and there are numerous passages which say drunkeness is wrong.
 
Sam_777 said:
I understand from (Luke 1:11-15) that wine or any fermented drink is not something that God wants us to drink, what do you think?

“Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.”
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St. John the Baptist was a nazirite which is some one seperated for God like samual and sampson the vow of the nazirite included not cutting their hair, not eating grapes or drinking wine and staying away from dead bodies. You can find all of this in numbers Chapter six.
 
jpk1313 said:
St. John the Baptist was a nazirite which is some one seperated for God like samual and sampson the vow of the nazirite included not cutting their hair, not eating grapes or drinking wine and staying away from dead bodies. You can find all of this in numbers Chapter six.
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And most, if not all Nazirite’s were dedicated by their parents when they were very young, so to have the angel command this at the very beginning of his life is in keeping with the norm. It was not something that could be decided on later.
 
Nine_Two said:
And most, if not all Nazirite’s were dedicated by their parents when they were very young, so to have the angel command this at the very beginning of his life is in keeping with the norm. It was not something that could be decided on later.
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I’m glad you mentioned this because it reminded me of a passage about the Nazirite and drinking wine. As far as I can tell, the vow to be a Nazirite was not always lifelong. In Numbers, it seems that the days of separation/consecration could be “fulfilled” or completed, and then they would shave that hair, make appropriate sacrifices, and then after that they could drink wine. It is the drinking of wine portion of that which might be helpful on this thread, although the ending of the state portion might be of interest to you. That portion is a little before these verses:Numbers 6:18 And the Nazirite shall shave his consecrated head at the door of the tent of meeting, and shall take the hair from his consecrated head and put it on the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offering. 19 And the priest shall take the shoulder of the ram, when it is boiled, and one unleavened cake out of the basket, and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them upon the hands of the Nazirite, after he has shaven the hair of his consecration, 20 and the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD; they are a holy portion for the priest, together with the breast that is waved and the thigh that is offered; and after that the Nazirite may drink wine.

Also, the verses where it appears St. Paul and 4 other men were under a vow that involved hair might be support for the idea that some type of a Nazirite vow could be temporary. Acts 18:18 After this Paul stayed many days longer, and then took leave of the brethren and sailed for Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila. At Cenchreae he cut his hair, for he had a vow.
and Acts 21:23 "Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 “But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.
 
Its interesting to know that about nazirism.

However I still retain my view regarding wine and I will follow this quote (1 Corinthians 10:23-24):
“Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.”
 
Sam_777 said:
Its interesting to know that about nazirism.

However I still retain my view regarding wine and I will follow this quote (1 Corinthians 10:23-24):
“Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.”
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I don’t see what that verse has to do with wine specifically.

There is nothing wrong with not drinking wine (with the exception of during the eucharist), just as there is nothing wrong with drinking it within reason. Every individual has the freedom to choose for themself.
 
Sam_777 said:
I understand from (Luke 1:11-15) that wine or any fermented drink is not something that God wants us to drink, what do you think?

“Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.”
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He made water into wine,in fact he was the first to use wine the good stuff any way,Wine is good getting drunk is not
 
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