Wine to be Used For Holy Communion

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KatieD

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I had a conversation with an acquaintance this weekend who told me that he has a priest friend who, while they were out hiking, used blueberry wine during a Mass he said for a few friends in a tent. Is this valid? I thought the only wine to be used was to be made from grapes - am I mistaken?

This gentleman then told me that at his upcoming marriage (he is a divorced Catholic, no annullment) at a Presbyterian church, his priest friend is giving the blessing. I’ve never heard of a priest giving a blessing at a wedding under these circumstances, and I’m wondering if this priest is just making up his own rules.
 
KatieD said:
I had a conversation with an acquaintance this weekend who told me that he has a priest friend who, while they were out hiking, used blueberry wine during a Mass he said for a few friends in a tent. Is this valid? I thought the only wine to be used was to be made from grapes - am I mistaken?

This gentleman then told me that at his upcoming marriage (he is a divorced Catholic, no annullment) at a Presbyterian church, his priest friend is giving the blessing. I’ve never heard of a priest giving a blessing at a wedding under these circumstances, and I’m wondering if this priest is just making up his own rules.
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Invalid, and probably yes, the priest is. He cannot licitly give his blessing to an invalid marriage such as that.
 
It needs to be wine from grapes and only from grapes, and not wine gone bad, either. And no, a priest can’t licitly bless an invalid marriage, no matter when or where the wedding took place. I can only hope there is some mix-up in the hearsay, here.
 
EasterJoy said:
It needs to be wine from grapes and only from grapes, and not wine gone bad, either. And no, a priest can’t licitly bless an invalid marriage, no matter when or where the wedding took place. I can only hope there is some mix-up in the hearsay, here.
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What do you mean “and not wine gone bad?” I wasn’t even aware wine could go bad. I thought it improved with the years.
 
Lazerlike42 said:
What do you mean “and not wine gone bad?” I wasn’t even aware wine could go bad. I thought it improved with the years.
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Eww! You’ve never tasted a wine that had gone bad? Corked? Or turned to vinegar?
 
Is sour wine invalid substance? If so, does someone have the documentation for this, so that I may add it to my brain? 😃
 
Lazerlike42 said:
Is sour wine invalid substance? If so, does someone have the documentation for this, so that I may add it to my brain? 😃
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Code of Canon Law:
Can. 924 §1. The most holy eucharistic sacrifice must be offered with bread and with wine in which a little water must be mixed.
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§2. The bread must be only wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of spoiling.
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§3. The wine must be natural from the fruit of the vine and not spoiled.
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Interestingly enough, even certified sacramental wines have nitrates added. I think the sacramental wine business is a scam for the most part.

From Mont La Salle’s website at montlasallealtarwines.com/faq.php#qq1_1

Is our current Altar Wine approved for Sacramental use?
We at Mont La Salle like to state that we cannot determine how other suppliers make their wine or if it is made according to the requirements of Canon Law. We know with absolute certainty that Mont La Salle altar wine is made according to Canon Law and, in addition, our label states “approved for sacramental use”. As far as we know, there is no other wine offered for commercial sale that makes this statement.

Then:

Sulfites in Wine - (Why does the wine label state ‘contains sulfites’? And, what are sulfites?) Sulfites in wine are nothing new since the yeast cells during fermentation produce a small amount of sulfites and the better winemakers have made tiny additions of sulfites for many centuries. This miniscule amount of added sulfites acts as an anti-oxidant and as a yeast inhibitor which preserves the natural good condition of the wine and retards spoilage. For the information and protection of those few people who are extremely sensitive or allergic to sulfites, U.S. Federal Law, for some time now, requires that wine containing (10) or more parts per million of sulfites be labeled “contains sulfites”. This labeling requirement is mandatory for all wines produced in the U.S. The wines are the same as they were before such labeling was required. Substances that assist in making sound wine and that remain in the wine in minute traces, such as sulfites, have been and are considered by canonists and theologians to be acceptable for the Eucharist. One such approval, as reported in the Sacramentary, was the Holy Office Decree of 2nd August, 1922."

Which leads to:

*Mass Wine: Treated with Sulphurous Anhydride, Etc. (Holy Office) Private.

The Holy Office was asked by the Archbishop of Tarracona: Whether in the Sacrifice of the Mass, wine may be used which is made from the juice of the grape, treated with sulphurous anhydride or with potassium bisulphite.

Reply. In the affirmative.

(Private) ; Holy Office, 2 Aug., 1922.

Not published in the AAS; cf. Il Monitore, Oct., 1923, p. 289. *

I think a lot of parishes spend money on special wine for no reason…
 
Lazerlike42 said:
Is sour wine invalid substance? If so, does someone have the documentation for this, so that I may add it to my brain? 😃
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Basically it isn’t wine anymore…it’s vinegar…and brrrr…you can’t drink it anymore:eek:
 
Lazerlike42 said:
Invalid, and probably yes, the priest is. He cannot licitly give his blessing to an invalid marriage such as that.
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True and it’s very seriously wrong and scandalous that he does these things. If Katie D knows the name of this priest you should write a letter to his Bishop. The priest might already have left the church by now , who knows, but if he is leading the sheep astray as a priest in a parish he must be stopped.
 
KatieD said:
I had a conversation with an acquaintance this weekend who told me that he has a priest friend who, while they were out hiking, used blueberry wine during a Mass he said for a few friends in a tent. Is this valid? I thought the only wine to be used was to be made from grapes - am I mistaken?

This gentleman then told me that at his upcoming marriage (he is a divorced Catholic, no annullment) at a Presbyterian church, his priest friend is giving the blessing. I’ve never heard of a priest giving a blessing at a wedding under these circumstances, and I’m wondering if this priest is just making up his own rules.
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No without Grape wine the Consecration would be invalid.

No the “priest friend” should not be acting in any way that could be taken as approving the attempted Marriage.
 
Well who knows if your friend told you the truth or not?

I’ve heard stories like this from people who generally don’t go to Mass on Sundays, and tell me how they see God more in nature than in Church, and that a priest even went on a hiking trip with them and said Mass, along with some ad hoc practice.

Generally in my experience, the people were lying.

Jim
 
Lazerlike42 said:
What do you mean “and not wine gone bad?” I wasn’t even aware wine could go bad. I thought it improved with the years.
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You blessed soul! Obviously you have never suffered a “corked” bottle of expensive wine that has turned to vinegar. Had you ever had so much as one sip of that monstrosity, this is a question you would never think to ask!
 
Unfortunately, I believe he told me the truth. This happened at a work-related weekend gathering. This man does indeed go to Mass; in fact, he went with a group of us and received Holy Communion even though he is very openly living with his girlfriend. I expect that he will continue to do so and has told my husband that he “isn’t that orthodox.” Fortunately, he lives in another part of the country, so I won’t have to see that again, I’ll just continue to pray for him to take the steps to have a valid marriage in the Church.

I don’t know his friend who is a priest - my impression is that they are long-time friends. When he told me about the blueberry wine and asked whether I had ever had blueberry wine at a Mass, I told him that I didn’t think it was valid, as I thought it had to be from grapes only. Then he told me that the priest was going to say the blessing at the Presbyterian church, and I had a feeling that the priest must be one of the types who does what he wants, regardless of the Church’s teachings.
 
KatieD
Unfortunately, I believe he told me the truth. This happened at a work-related weekend gathering. This man does indeed go to Mass; in fact, he went with a group of us and received Holy Communion even though he is very openly living with his girlfriend.
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This raises a red flag for me concerning his honesty about the priest and blueberry wine.

He’s not being honest with his Catholic faith in the first place, so I question his honesty in what he’s telling you about the priest.

Jim
 
In addition to the Canon Law citations, this is what Redemptionis Sacramentum has to say on the matter:
50.] The wine that is used in the most sacred celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice must be natural, from the fruit of the grape, pure and incorrupt, not mixed with other substances.127 During the celebration itself, a small quantity of water is to be mixed with it. Great care should be taken so that the wine intended for the celebration of the Eucharist is well conserved and has not soured.128 It is altogether forbidden to use wine of doubtful authenticity or provenance, for the Church requires certainty regarding the conditions necessary for the validity of the sacraments. Nor are other drinks of any kind to be admitted for any reason, as they do not constitute valid matter.
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Therefore, what the priest did was to invalidate the Mass. He may have had the intent, but, he certainly did not have the matter.
 
Thank you for that information. My instincts told me that the wine needed to be grape, but I wasn’t positive. And I would certainly think that a priest should know this. Since he is also giving a blessing at the marriage, he apparently does what he wants.
 
Phemie said:
Code of Canon Law:
Can. 924 §1. The most holy eucharistic sacrifice must be offered with bread and with wine in which a little water must be mixed.

§2. The bread must be only wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of spoiling.

§3. The wine must be natural from the fruit of the vine and not spoiled.
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So there is nothing in the Canon that requires it to be fermented then? The wine could validly be grape juice with little or no alcohol content, or wine with the alcohol removed?
 
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