Wisconsin Sikh Community Shooting

[cmforte]

Statistically if you use a gun in self defense even with proper training you are more likely to shoot yourself or an innocent bystander than the perpetrator. .

And yet, as the sources I cited in my post bove, some people who have used guns in self-defense were successful and shot the offender. Why would you want them to be defenseless simply because of “statistics”?

And it really depends on which statistcs you use. Haven’t you ever heard the phrase, “Statistics don’t lie, but liars use staitics”?: pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html :

According to the National Self Defense Survey conducted by Florida State University criminologists in 1994, the rate of Defensive Gun Uses can be projected nationwide to approximately 2.5 million per year – one Defensive Gun Use every 13 seconds.
Among 15.7% of gun defenders interviewed nationwide during The National Self Defense Survey, the defender believed that someone “almost certainly” would have died had the gun not been used for protection – a life saved by a privately held gun about once every 1.3 minutes. (In another 14.2% cases, the defender believed someone “probably” would have died if the gun hadn’t been used in defense.)

In 83.5% of these successful gun defenses, the attacker either threatened or used force first – disproving the myth that having a gun available for defense wouldn’t make any difference.

In 91.7% of these incidents the defensive use of a gun did not wound or kill the criminal attacker (and the gun defense wouldn’t be called “newsworthy” by newspaper or TV news editors). In 64.2% of these gun-defense cases, the police learned of the defense, which means that the media could also find out and report on them if they chose to.

In 73.4% of these gun-defense incidents, the attacker was a stranger to the intended victim. (Defenses against a family member or intimate were rare – well under 10%.) This disproves the myth that a gun kept for defense will most likely be used against a family member or someone you love.

In over half of these gun defense incidents, the defender was facing two or more attackers – and three or more attackers in over a quarter of these cases. (No means of defense other than a firearm – martial arts, pepper spray, or stun guns – gives a potential victim a decent chance of getting away uninjured when facing multiple attackers.)

In 79.7% of these gun defenses, the defender used a concealable handgun. A quarter of the gun defenses occured in places away from the defender’s home.

On the Other Hand: Studying the Studies
Excerpted from ABCNEWS.com:

The political climate surrounding guns is so intense that studies have been done of studies that have been done about studies. Philip Cook, the director of Duke University’s public policy institute, has examined the data behind the 108,000 and the 2.5 million figures and suspects the truth lies somewhere in between. "Many of the basic statistics about guns are in wide disagreement with each other depending on which source you go to," says Cook, a member of the apolitical National Consortium on Violence Research. “That’s been a real puzzle to people who are trying to understand what’s going on.”

Using statistics, that can be interpreted in multiple ways and that, many times, contradict themselves, is not an acceptable way to decide on how people get to defend themelves.

-Chris

 

[cmforte]

And the theatre was filled with tear gas…

I just read an article on CNN titled ‘5 Things Gun Owners Want You to Know’. It addressed the myth of an armed civilian being able to put a stop to it.

Statistically if you use a gun in self defense even with proper training you are more likely to shoot yourself or an innocent bystander than the perpetrator. With the noise, chaos, movement, adrenaline, disorientation, etc it is just too easy to hurt an innocent. Furthermore, it makes law enforcement’s job harder because they can’t tell who the attacker is when bullets are flying and bodies are dropping in all directions.

And we are not just talking about this one specific incident. AdamPeter seems to believe that people should never be able to defend themselves with a gun, period, despite the circumstances.

-Chris

 

[BlueEyedLady]

And yet, as the sources I cited in my post bove, some people who have used guns in self-defense were successful and shot the offender. Why would you want them to be defenseless simply because of “statistics”?

And it really depends on which statistcs you use. Haven’t you ever heard the phrase, “Statistics don’t lie, but liars use staitics”?: pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html :

Using statistics, that can be interpreted in multiple ways and that, many times, contradict themselves, is not an acceptable way to decide on how people get to defend themelves.

-Chris

When that defense endangers more lives we do get to decide how people defend themselves. Hence flamethrowers are not allowed.

There is a reason that law enforcement officers hate the idea of civilians pulling out guns in those situations. It makes their jobs all but impossible and more people die.

 

[cmforte]

When that defense endangers more lives we do get to decide how people defend themselves.

Proove this. And remember, I can counter your statistics with my statistics.

In the theatre situation, maybe. But you didn’t read the other artcles I sourced. Not every circumstance is the same. In the middle of nowhere where a cop is hours away, what then? And btw, some police don’t like the idea of civilains being able to defend themselves for less than honorable reasons.

-Chris

 

[BlueEyedLady]

And don’t get me wrong, I’m not one of those no guns in any circumstances ever people. I grew up with guns, I own guns, and when I visit my parents out in the country I shoot, and in between those visits I go to shooting ranges.

I think that guns should be a matter for state and local governments. Here’s the thing, where I grew up the guy holding the gun was your friend. Chances are he was going hunting because that’s a cheaper way to feed a family than buying meat. He grew up around guns, takes gun safety very seriously, and has had decades of practice. Where I live now the guy holding the gun is anything but your friend. The laws that are necessary to keep Chicago safe are not the laws needed to keep Wyoming safe, and those laws aren’t the ones needed to keep Texas safe and so on.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

In the theatre situation, maybe. But you didn’t read the other artcles I sourced. Not every circumstance is the same. In the middle of nowhere where a cop is hours away, what then? And btw, some police don’t like the idea of civilains being able to defend themselves for less than honorable reasons.

-Chris

Of course there are exceptions. But in general it is safer if civilians don’t try to get in to shootouts. And we shouldn’t make laws based on exceptions. More people would have died in Aurora if other people started shooting too, even if they were trying to hit the gunman.

And by the way, as I noted in a later post I believe strongly in more relaxed gun laws in less violent and populated areas than I do in say, New York City.

 

[cmforte]

Of course there are exceptions. But in general it is safer if civilians don’t try to get in to shootouts.

When did I say they should "***try ***

Lol Then what would be the point?

-Chris

 

[cmforte]

And don’t get me wrong, I’m not one of those no guns in any circumstances ever people. I grew up with guns, I own guns, and when I visit my parents out in the country I shoot, and in between those visits I go to shooting ranges.

I think that guns should be a matter for state and local governments. Here’s the thing, where I grew up the guy holding the gun was your friend. Chances are he was going hunting because that’s a cheaper way to feed a family than buying meat. He grew up around guns, takes gun safety very seriously, and has had decades of practice. Where I live now the guy holding the gun is anything but your friend. The laws that are necessary to keep Chicago safe are not the laws needed to keep Wyoming safe, and those laws aren’t the ones needed to keep Texas safe and so on.

Is Chicago “safe”?

-Chris

 

[cmforte]

And don’t get me wrong, I’m not one of those no guns in any circumstances ever people. I grew up with guns, I own guns, and when I visit my parents out in the country I shoot, and in between those visits I go to shooting ranges.

I think that guns should be a matter for state and local governments. Here’s the thing, where I grew up the guy holding the gun was your friend. Chances are he was going hunting because that’s a cheaper way to feed a family than buying meat. He grew up around guns, takes gun safety very seriously, and has had decades of practice. **Where I live now the guy holding the gun is anything but your friend. **

Then keep that person from getting a gun, but why ban everyone?

-Chris

 

[roket1]

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[cmforte]

Bienvenidos a ABA. - Oropesa del Mar. Marina d’Or .

Somos una empresa especializada en el alquiler, compra y venta de apartamentos en Marina d’Or, Oropesa del Mar ,Castellón. Alquilamos exclusivamente apartamentos dentro del complejo Marina d’Or. En los diferentes apartados que le presentamos podrán encontrar lo mejor de nuestra ciudad de vacaciones.

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I translated this into English and it is an advertisement and has been reported.

-Chris

 

[Cat]

How do Protestants and Catholics in Ireland get the guns that they kill each other with? Does Ireland have gun control laws?

My heart goes out to the Sikh community in the U.S. The Indian people I know are sweet, gentle, and kind, and they deserve better than this.

Just last week, at my workplace, a hospital, we were all being trained in how to respond if there is a shooter in our building. Very disturbing for many of us. But just LAST WEEK–sigh!–we were all saying that the next shooting will happen in a church. And we were right. God help us all.

 

[AdamP88]

How do Protestants and Catholics in Ireland get the guns that they kill each other with? Does Ireland have gun control laws?

My heart goes out to the Sikh community in the U.S. The Indian people I know are sweet, gentle, and kind, and they deserve better than this.

Just last week, at my workplace, a hospital, we were all being trained in how to respond if there is a shooter in our building. Very disturbing for many of us. But just LAST WEEK–sigh!–we were all saying that the next shooting will happen in a church. And we were right. God help us all.

It’s mostly illegal to own guns in Ireland.
The only people who have weapons on a regular basis are Detective Police Officers and other armed forces.
Also some hunters and farmers.

Seriously…Protestants and Catholics?? The troubles in Ireland have been over for years. Do you really imagine a little green island full of turf cutting Catholic & Protestant leprechauns shooting each other.

 

[Cat]

It’s mostly illegal to own guns in Ireland.
The only people who have weapons on a regular basis are Detective Police Officers and other armed forces.
Also some hunters and farmers.

Seriously…Protestants and Catholics?? The troubles in Ireland have been over for years. Do you really imagine a little green island full of turf cutting Catholic & Protestant leprechauns shooting each other.

Yes, years, since Feb. 5, 2010. Two years.

I don’t know what “turf cutters” are. People who mow lawns?

I don’t “imagine” anything about Ireland. I read the newspapers and listen to the news on TV. If those sources have been false all my life about the violence in Ireland, then I apologize.

The United States is a very different country than Ireland. A reading of the history of the U.S. will demonstrate why guns have been legal for citizens for most of our history.

 

[AdamP88]

Yes, years, since Feb. 5, 2010. Two years.

I don’t know what “turf cutters” are. People who mow lawns?

I don’t “imagine” anything about Ireland. I read the newspapers and listen to the news on TV. If those sources have been false all my life about the violence in Ireland, then I apologize.

The United States is a very different country than Ireland. A reading of the history of the U.S. will demonstrate why guns have been legal for citizens for most of our history.

There is very little gun crime in Ireland that is not gang related. Even the IRA dealt drugs and were involved in prostitution rings.

I am well aware of the history of the US and the reason for the second amendment. To be honest…I think it’s outdated.

…And it’s killing people.

 

[PattyPryor]

Okay no offense but this whole thread was not supposed to be about gun control and violence, but for those who were killed worshiping their religion.

Like a poster said If you want to talk about gun control please go to a different forum thanks

 

[Cat]

Okay no offense but this whole thread was not supposed to be about gun control and violence, but for those who were killed worshiping their religion.

Like a poster said If you want to talk about gun control please go to a different forum thanks

I apologize. I allowed myself to be drawn into the gun control debate.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Thread waaaay off topic.
Closed.