Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Sirach HELP me find a passage

[I_thirst_4_YOU]

I have been looking for a certain passage that is ALWAYS listed as being from Ecclesiasticus.

The passage reads: “I am the Mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In me is all grace of the Way and of the Truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue. Come over to me, all you that desire me, and be filled with my fruits. For my spirit is sweet above honey, and my inheritance above honey and the honeycomb. My memory is unto everlasting generations. He that hearkens to me shall not be confounded: and they that work by me, shall not sin. They that explain me shall have life everlasting” (Ecclesiasticus 24:24-28, 30-31).

Can anyone help me find out where this is in the NAB? I have looked and looked and looked.

 

[TMC]

I have been looking for a certain passage that is ALWAYS listed as being from Ecclesiasticus.

The passage reads: “I am the Mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In me is all grace of the Way and of the Truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue. Come over to me, all you that desire me, and be filled with my fruits. For my spirit is sweet above honey, and my inheritance above honey and the honeycomb. My memory is unto everlasting generations. He that hearkens to me shall not be confounded: and they that work by me, shall not sin. They that explain me shall have life everlasting” (Ecclesiasticus 24:24-28, 30-31).

Can anyone help me find out where this is in the NAB? I have looked and looked and looked.

Sirach = Ecclesiasticus. Sirach 24 in the NAB contains much of the sense of the passage you quote, but in less dramatic language. Of note, the word “Mother” does not appear, with the speaker being identified as “Wisdom” instead.

 

[chaunceygardner]

I have been looking for a certain passage that is ALWAYS listed as being from Ecclesiasticus.

The passage reads: “I am the Mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In me is all grace of the Way and of the Truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue. Come over to me, all you that desire me, and be filled with my fruits. For my spirit is sweet above honey, and my inheritance above honey and the honeycomb. My memory is unto everlasting generations. He that hearkens to me shall not be confounded: and they that work by me, shall not sin. They that explain me shall have life everlasting” (Ecclesiasticus 24:24-28, 30-31).

Can anyone help me find out where this is in the NAB? I have looked and looked and looked.

The part I highlighted in blue is taken from Sirach 24:18-21. The NAB has it this way:

Come to me, all you that yearn for me, and be filled with my fruits;
You will remember me as sweeter than honey, better to have than the honeycomb.
He who eats of me will hunger still, he who drinks of me will thirst for more;
He who obeys me will not be put to shame, he who serves me will never fail.

The last part seems to resemble NAB version of Sirach 24:30-31:

Thus do I send my teachings forth shining like the dawn, to become known afar off.
Thus do I pour out instruction like prophecy and bestow it on generations to come.

The beginning sentences in your quote may be from other passages in Sirach, or could have been written by someone who inserted the biblical quote after it. I could not readily find anything that resembled the language in those sentences in Sirach 24.

It is easy to confuse Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) with Ecclesiastes, another Wisdom Book (“Vanity of Vanities”). Both are favorities of mine.

 

[I_thirst_4_YOU]

The part I highlighted in blue is taken from Sirach 24:18-21. The NAB has it this way:

The last part seems to resemble NAB version of Sirach 24:30-31:

The beginning sentences in your quote may be from other passages in Sirach, or could have been written by someone who inserted the biblical quote after it. I could not readily find anything that resembled the language in those sentences in Sirach 24.

It is easy to confuse Ecclesiasticus (Sirach )with Ecclesiastes, another Wisdom Book (“Vanity of Vanities”). Both are favorities of mine.

So what you are saying is that the first line, “The passage reads: “I am the Mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In me is all grace of the Way and of the Truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue” is not found in scripture at all?

Everybody, please do me a favor and search that first line, you will see that it is quoted as being from Ecclesiasticus and Sirach. The Old Latin Tridintine Liturgy even uses it and quotes it as such.

My main desire is for that line of the quote and reference of the BVM.

Any other help will be much appreciated.

 

[Nita]

So what you are saying is that the first line, “The passage reads: “I am the Mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In me is all grace of the Way and of the Truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue” is not found in scripture at all?

No, it doesn’t mean it isn’t found in Scripture at all; it means that it is not in all the old manuscripts (Hebrew and Greek) from which our translations have been made. It isn’t as tho there is one original manuscript. Actually, I don’t think THE original manuscript of any book in the Bible, Old or New Testament, is still in existence. In regards to Ecclesiastes, some manuscripts were longer than others. Here are a couple of websites that give background on Ecclesiastes:

1911encyclopedia.org/Ecclesiasticus
(A short quote from the above site: *The Greek version exists in two forms - (a) that preserved in cod. B and in the other uncial MSS., (b) that preserved in the cursive codex 248 (Holmes and Parsons). The former has a somewhat briefer text, the latter agrees more closely with the Hebrew text. The majority of Greek cursives agree generally with the Latin Vulgate, and offer the fuller text in a corrupt form. *

newadvent.org/cathen/05263a.htm (see the sections titled “Original Text” and “Ancient Versions”

 

[chaunceygardner]

So what you are saying is that the first line, “The passage reads: “I am the Mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In me is all grace of the Way and of the Truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue” is not found in scripture at all?

Everybody, please do me a favor and search that first line, you will see that it is quoted as being from Ecclesiasticus and Sirach. The Old Latin Tridintine Liturgy even uses it and quotes it as such.

My main desire is for that line of the quote and reference of the BVM.

Any other help will be much appreciated.

No, I am not saying that the first line is not found in scripture. I could not readily find it in that chapter of Sirach, or in a couple of other chapters I checked. I did not do a search for that specific line. Perhaps someone else can state where it might be from, or if it appears in some Bible versions but not in others.

Having recently read through Sirach, the wording you give just does not seem compatible with the language used in the NAB version I read. The second sentence beginning with “In me is all grace of the Way and of the Truth…” sounds more like something from the Gospels or Epistles, not the OT. But again, someone else can hopefully help out with that and identify the source.

One question is: What is the source of that passage? Where did you see it?

 

[Nita]

…
One question is: What is the source of that passage? Where did you see it?

It’s in the Challoner English translation of the Douay Rheims (which is a translation of the Latin Vulgate).

 

[Nita]

So what you are saying is that the first line, “The passage reads: “I am the Mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In me is all grace of the Way and of the Truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue” is not found in scripture at all?

Everybody, please do me a favor and search that first line, you will see that it is quoted as being from Ecclesiasticus and Sirach. The Old Latin Tridintine Liturgy even uses it and quotes it as such.

My main desire is for that line of the quote and reference of the BVM.

The verses are all speaking about “Wisdom” (24:1). The primary Catholic interpretation would be that they refer to Jesus. In Greek, the noun “wisdom” has a feminine ending, thus all the feminine terminology (“she” and “mother”).

Just wanted to add, that often verses can have more than one application or reference. And definitely in Ecclesiasticus it is easy to see applications to Mary also. One I like is in 24:12 - in the Douay: “…and he that made me, rested in my tabernacle,” In addition to our Incarnate Lord Jesus, and Mary, the verse also applies beautifully to the Catholic Church. Triple application.

 

[Nita]

I did a google search on the phrase - I am the mother of fair love.

St. Alphonsus Liguori in the “Glories of Mary” says:
The Church applies to Mary these words of the sacred Canticles: “I am the mother of fair love”; and a commentator explaining them……
books.google.com/books?id=7uwCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=I+am+the+mother+of+fair+love&source=bl&ots=mv3_L5fHe7&sig=99UqoBEvgmSTIuc0trKC_rX6mEg&hl=en&ei=00H8S-WPN4H78Abh_9H9BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CDAQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=I%20am%20the%20mother%20of%20fair%20love&f=false

Also, it seems the same text as the Douay is/was used in the Anglican “Book of Common Prayer”.
books.google.com/books?id=z6A9AAAAYAAJ&pg=PT750&lpg=PT750&dq=I+am+the+mother+of+fair+love&source=bl&ots=JypcwS9R-j&sig=p9mJvIlc4qn4kQHDDrliMEbNhRY&hl=en&ei=00X8S93YMoL68AbYrtnLBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CC0Q6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=I%20am%20the%20mother%20of%20fair%20love&f=false

 

[Bible_Reader]

Douay (Challoner) Sirach 24:24-31 (skipping verse 29):

24 I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. 25 In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue. 26 Come over to me, all you that desire me, and be filled with my fruits. 27 For my spirit is sweet above honey, and my inheritance above honey and the honeycomb. 28 My memory is unto everlasting generations. 30 He that hearkens to me, shall not be confounded: and they that work by me, shall not sin. 31 They that explain me shall have life everlasting.

In Latin (Clementine Vulgate):

24 Ego mater pulchræ dilectionis, et timoris, et agnitionis, et sanctæ spei. 25 In me gratia omnis viæ et veritatis : in me omnis spes vitæ et virtutis. 26 Transite ad me, omnes qui concupiscitis me, et a generationibus meis implemini : 27 spiritus enim meus super mel dulcis, et hæreditas mea super mel et favum. 28 Memoria mea in generatione sæculorum. 30 Qui audit me non confundetur, et qui operantur in me non peccabunt : 31 qui elucidant me, vitam æternam habebunt.

Check it out here: newadvent.org/bible/sir024.htm

Here is Skehan & Di Lella (OFM)'s translation (the translation and commentary have Imprimatur) in the Anchor Bible (it has a different verse numbering because they used different source texts):

16 “I spread out my branches like a terebinth,
my branches so bright and so graceful.
17 I bud forth delights like the vine,
my blossoms yield to fruits fair and rich.
18 I am the mother of fair love, of reverence,
of knowledge, and of holy hope;
To all my children I give
to be everlasting: to those named by Him.
19 Come to me, you that yearn for me,
and be filled with my fruits;
20 You will remember me as sweeter than honey,
better to have than the honeycomb.
21 He who eats of me will hunger still,
he who drinks of me will thirst for more;
22 He who obeys me will not be put to shame,
those who work with me will never fail.”

With these notes on verse 18:

18a, b. These two cola of GII are followed in the Lat by “In me is every gift of life and truth [or: of the way and of truth]; / in me is all hope of life and of virtue.” At least in its final form this would seem to have been shaped in Lat for alliterative effects.

18c, d. Not present in the Lat. The Gr is obscure, and the translation follows a conjecture of de Groot (aei genesthai for aeigeneis/-ēs of the MSS), cited by Ziegler.

And this commentary:

Like the opening stanza of Wisdom’s speech, the final stanza (vv 16–17, 19–22) has “I” as the first word of the first two bicola; cf. COMMENT on v 3. The imagery returns to flora, as in vv 13–14. The “terebinth” (v 16a), a deciduous tree with pinnate leaves and red berries, was noted for its far-reaching and lovely branches. In Judg 6:11, the angel of Yahweh who spoke with Gideon sat under the terebinth in Ophrah. In Israel’s past, the terebinth, probably because it was such a prominent and lofty tree, had been associated with cultic prostitution at idol shrines; cf. Isa 1:29; 57:5; Hos 4:13. Like the vine (v 17a) which produces the grape for wine that “cheers gods and men” (Judg 9:13), Wisdom buds forth “delights” (lit., grace). When her blossoms fall off, Wisdom produces “fruits fair and rich” (v 17b), lit., fruits of honor and wealth—the classical fruits of Wisdom. Cf. 4:21b; Prov 3:16; 8:18–19, 21. As regards v 18, found in GII, cf. NOTES. For a good study of the symbolism of the tree and vine images, cf. A. Fournier-Bidoz, “L’Arbre et la demeure: Siracide xxiv 10–17,” VT 34 (1984): 1–10.

In v 19, Wisdom now offers the customary invitation to her disciples, whom she calls “you that yearn for me.” One must accept her invitation in order to “be filled with [her] fruits,” which are “fair and rich,” as v 17b puts it. Cf. 6:18–38; Prov 8:4–10, 32–36; 9:4–6, 11; Matt 11:28–30. Wisdom describes herself as “sweeter than honey” (v 20a) and “better … than the honeycomb” (v 20b); cf. Ps 19:11, where the “ordinances of Yahweh” are said to be “sweeter than syrup or honey from the comb.” Cf. also Ps 119:103; Prov 16:24; 24:13–14. The point of v 21 is that the one who eats and drinks of Wisdom’s delights (cf. vv 17, 19–20) “will hunger” and “thirst for more.” Compare the words of Jesus in John 4:14; 6:35. The one who “obeys” Wisdom (cf. Prov 8:32a) “will not be put to shame” (v 22a; cf. Ps 22:6), whereas the fool, i.e., the person who does not keep the Law, will experience shame and disgrace (cf. 5:14; 6:1; 20:26). Moreover, “those who work with [Wisdom],” i.e., those whose obedience to her is put into practice, “will never fail” (Gr hamartēsousin, Heb yeḥṭāʾû in Skehan’s retroversion). Skehan writes (CBQ 41, p. 378): “Perhaps the most interesting lexical link between [Proverbs 8 and Sirach 24] occurs with ḥōṭĕʾî in Prov 8:36 and lōʾ yeḥṭāʾû in Sir 24:22. ‘He who misses me [that is, Wisdom]’ is the sense in Proverbs, and ‘will not fail’ is the meaning in Sirach—the only two cases in biblical literature in which ḥṭʾ has its basic physical sense of falling short, missing the mark, and does not rather convey the derived sense of ‘sin.’ ” It is also to be observed that the Heb verb ḥṭʾ (Gr hamartanein) occurs in the last line of the poem in Proverbs 8 (v 36a) and in the last lines of Wisdom’s speech in our poem (v 22b).

 

[I_thirst_4_YOU]

I am even more confused than now than I was when I first posted this question a few days ago.

Ok, I want to put that quote on a prayer card–if I use the quote,
“I am the Mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In me is all grace of the Way and of the Truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue. Come over to me, all you that desire me, and be filled with my fruits. For my spirit is sweet above honey, and my inheritance above honey and the honeycomb. My memory is unto everlasting generations. He that hearkens to me shall not be confounded: and they that work by me, shall not sin. They that explain me shall have life everlasting”

which is always quoted as (Ecclesiasticus 24:24-28, 30-31) how should I cite it? I would like to use said prayer card where plenty of protestants will read it. Is the fullness of this quote found in Scripture? or isn’t it?

 

[nada122]

Hi to all

I thirst 4 YOU!, I am also greatly confused and disturbed as you are. Please anyone clarify this. It seems that all the modern Catholic Bibles had deleted these verses (Sirach or Ecclesiaticus 24:24) with the exception of the Douay-Rheims Bible. As far as I know, The Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary for centuries has this verse referring to the Mary herself in The Little Chapter for the Hour of Compline or Night Prayer which is now a part of the present Liturgy. I’m referring here of the Little Office covered by the 1962 Revision of Blessed John XXIII. Can it be possible that the Doctrines of our Holy Faith which we once believed really isn’t what we should believe now, I think not, I mean why should they just delete it like that? This is part of the doctrine on Mary not just Jesus. Is the Solemn Decree of the Council of Trent in 1546 nullified? which says:

“If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid [72] books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema.” (Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, Sess. IV, “Decree concerning the Canonical Scriptures,” April 8, 1546)

You shall not add to the word that I speak to you, neither shall you take away from it: keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. - Deuteronomy 4:2

 

[nada122]

Folks,

The Original Sirach or Ecclesiaticus Chapter 24 in the Douay-Rheims Bible has 47 verses.
Please click below:
newadvent.org/bible/sir024.htm

Now, in the New American Bible, that Chapter 24, has only 31 verses. And you will not find the missing verses in the other parts of these modern Catholic Bibles no matter how hard you try. (Please correct me if I’m wrong because I searched and searched…)
Please click below:
usccb.org/nab/bible/index.shtml

Where did they put the other verses? Simple, they deleted it. The part that they deleted is that of Sirach 24:24-28, 30-31.

I think this is the work of the liberal Catholic scholars (not just NAB but all modern Catholic Bibles) who made the translations and who thinks that the deleted verses is not really part of Sacred Scriptures or they don’t find it authentic. Mind you, the saints like St. Alphonsus Liguori, Most Zealous Doctor of the Church, have used this verses in their writings.

“You shall not add to the word that I speak to you, neither shall you take away from it: keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” - Deuteronomy 4:2