Wisdom or Love - What Is Greater?

[benotagoat]

We speak about “Love” in many ways, some of which are compassion, feelings, emotions, but Love is actually a Being.

It is written that we are “made in the Image…of God” and it is when we do anything with love that the “Image of God” shines thru us.

When you meet God, you will come to the realization that the statement, “God Is Love”, is quite literal and that love is NOT a mere attribute of God but is God’s Very Being.

Ever heard of God referred to as a “Consuming Fire of Love”?

This “Consuming Fire of Love” will one day burn away all that needs to be burned away and with some people, the only thing left just might be the “Image of God” that they were made in, but there will be something left.

Many tend to underestimate God.

Many also tend to put “limitations” on God when they put God in a “box”, no matter how nice that “box” is, the only “limitations” on God are those that are Self-imposed.

All the posts are good ,but this one is inspiring .Merci Beaucoup.

 

[benotagoat]

(I should like to study more of Phenomenology as JPII employed it and valued it in his thinking and writing as well. ) That is just a stray thought pertaining to our topic.

A feeling is just an impulse that lies before action takes place, there is a chasm of some sort that separates the thought and feeling from the deed itself, the action, that must be bridged.

Christ said no man hath greater love than to lay down his life for his friends. I think love must actually be in the will which manifests itself in an outwardly visible action. It is the crucifix, or a depiction of the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth, that comes to mind when I think what the essence of love is.

It is not enough to have a feeling or emotion that is unselfish and noble because that feeling still can be acted or not acted on. When this impulse to love is not acted upon, nothing is really changed in the physical world, or perhaps i should say, the world of man, for the better. I am reminded, as an example, of the Parable of the Good Samaritan. Christ asked at the end of the parable, I think, which of the three men showed love to his neighbor. The answer was the man who acted.

Let me share with you a portion of one of my favorite quotes by Romano Guardini You may or may not find it relevant to our discussion, but I am reminded of it…

“The spirit [of a man] is articulated by his various **actions **and their relation in time…”

I reason more by intuition than by pure reason so it is therefore somewhat difficult for me to lay out a cogent rationale for why I believe certain things. I could simply say that they resonate with me, but that is not really sufficient an answer, I know.

St. John of the Cross said that at the end of time we shall be judged on love alone. Surely one does not think that “love” in this quote entails nothing more than an emotion we possess?? I think one can love, even when his emotions scream against virtue. Does a husband truly love his wife only when a feels like loving her, or does he truly love her when his action to do the good for her is carried out in spite of his emotions being absent or perhaps even pulling or pushing him towards a behavior towards her that does not contribute to her well-being.

Christ said as a condition or a “proof” that authentic love is present…

If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

That is an action. So I think love is bound up in the human act, which is actuated by the will.

But wisdom tells us when to act and when not too, as action taken without ‘wisdom’ can be problematic .

 

[spockrates]

Rock-wanna-be! I have trouble with the enemies too!
What did Adam and Eve have in the garden of Eden? Love, wisdom? And yet they were not satisfied. When the serpent came along and offered knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL, they were more than ready to take a “bite.” So, the search for TRUTH began… and someone said Wisdom is the knowledge of truth. Did Adam and Eve not have wisdom and love in Paradise?

Splendid Petra! People like you are the reason I visit forums like these. Alone I’d never think of considering Adam and Eve.

“For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

(Genesis 3:5)

Let’s assume Genesis 3 is actual history, Adam and Eve were actual people, the garden an actual place and the speaking serpent an actual form of the devil. It’s difficult to say exactly what Adam and Eve knew. But we can say they loved, for they were created without sin, and it is a sin to not love.

So let’s put or heads together and consider whether they had the love and wisdom to obey Jesus’ most difficult command to love our enemies. In this case, the enemy is the serpent who encourages them to disobey God. Does Eve love him? Let me take a stab at answering that question. As was said during a different conversation in this discussion, Paul gives examples of how to love.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

(1 Corinthians 13)

I’d say Eve was patient and kind to the serpent. She did not walk away but stayed and listened to what he had to say. She did not boast nor was she proud. When the serpent suggested disobeying God, she did not say, “You may know good and evil, but at least Adam and I obey God!” She was not easily angered by his suggestion, nor did she hold it against him. And what of always trusting and always hoping? Yes, I believe she implicitly trusted the serpent and had sincere hope that he would not steer her or her partner wrong. So she ate, as did Adam.

Did she love her enemy? Indeed! Did she love wisely? No. Did she love God by disobeying him? I don’t think so. Was there a way to love both God and her enemy? Yes. I suppose she could have listened to his offer and respectfully declined, or Adam could have intervened and said something to change her mind.

So I’d say in this case, love without wisdom results in sin, with devastating and long-lasting consequences. Wouldn’t you?

 

[spockrates]

Perhaps Adam and Eve did not have wisdom since that comes with life experience. They, on the other hand, were living a sheltered life of bliss in the Garden of Eden. They had no need for work, money, or even clothes; in short, they had no worries. It was only after they had to leave Paradise that they became acquainted with pain and suffering, work, and the harshness of the world. But now they could also acquire wisdom in developing the social and cognitive skills necessary to adapt to their new world. And, I believe, their love for one another as well as for G-d also took on a deeper meaning. Judaism says that those who have sinned (all of us) have the unique opportunity to draw closer to G-d than we would have had we not sinned.

Fascinating! But apparently true. It is unique, Metzer. Does Judaism teach it is better? I suppose if it is better to have wisdom and love than love alone, then it might be. But then I wonder why the desire for many is to regain the paradise that was lost, if you are one who believes in such. Maybe the new paradise would be better than the old, for those inhabiting it would be wiser? Hmmm.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Not sure I understand. Are you saying that when I experience compassion, what I feel is not an emotion–what I feel is God? Or are you saying the love I feel for others is a different kind of love from the love God is?

What I am saying, quite simply, is that Love Is a Being and that Being Is God.

I can’t explain it, only God can.

I would say, though, that whenever one is loving, it very well could be God’s Image, that we are made in, shining thru.

Jesus said something to the effect, “Suffer the little children to come unto Me, for of such is the Kingdom of God”.

Something to think about, sometimes we can learn more when we come to the realization that we can’t figure it all out.

 

[spockrates]

What I am saying, quite simply, is that Love Is a Being and that Being Is God.

I can’t explain it, only God can.

I would say, though, that whenever one is loving, it very well could be God’s Image, that we are made in, shining thru.

Jesus said something to the effect, “Suffer the little children to come unto Me, for of such is the Kingdom of God”.

Something to think about, sometimes we can learn more when we come to the realization that we can’t figure it all out.

By ourselves, figuring out this one truth about God would be impossible. But with God’s help, all good things are possible. All we lack is the wisdom to know the truth, and as James says:

If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.

(James 1:5)

So what do you say, my new friend? Should we pray for wisdom and seek the truth together, or should we be content to remain in our ignorance?

 

[spockrates]

ALL:

I want to thank everyone who participated in the Socratic dialogue, or my amateurish attempt at one. I appreciate every attempt to answer the questions, whether it was one reply, or many. Dudes! Your the best.

 

[multitude]

I would have said Love. Even Satan is extremely wise regarding human tendencies and knows all our weak spots, which is why he finds it quite easy to tempt us. Even Satan knows the truth. But he is certainly not loving.

 

[spockrates]

I would have said Love. Even Satan is extremely wise regarding human tendencies and knows all our weak spots, which is why he finds it quite easy to tempt us. Even Satan knows the truth. But he is certainly not loving.

True, multitude.

But I wonder if wisdom is more than knowing the truth. You and I likely agree it is not wise to cross God so blatantly–to make war against him, so to speak.

Some have suggested that love is not only what you feel, it’s what you do. I wonder if for wisdom the same is true. Wisdom is not merely what you know, it’s whether you do what you know. You know?

 

[multitude]

True, multitude.

But I wonder if wisdom is more than knowing the truth. You and I likely agree it is not wise to cross God so blatantly–to make war against him, so to speak.

Some have suggested that love is not only what you feel, it’s what you do. I wonder if for wisdom the same is true. Wisdom is not merely what you know, it’s whether you do what you know. You know?

Hmm. Could be. Someone like Marcus Aurelius was considered wise, but considering his persecution of the early Christians, the way his son Commodus turned out, the chaos around him and his inability or inaction to curb it, perhaps he wasn’t quite as wise as his writings make him out to be.

 

[meltzerboy]

True, multitude.

But I wonder if wisdom is more than knowing the truth. You and I likely agree it is not wise to cross God so blatantly–to make war against him, so to speak.

Some have suggested that love is not only what you feel, it’s what you do. I wonder if for wisdom the same is true. Wisdom is not merely what you know, it’s whether you do what you know. You know?

I agree. Love in action and wisdom in action. I would add that sometimes it is not wise to act. There is a time and place to act. Further, love in action can take several forms. Sometimes discipline or even reprimand can be a form of love.

 

[spockrates]

Hmm. Could be. Someone like Marcus Aurelius was considered wise, but considering his persecution of the early Christians, the way his son Commodus turned out, the chaos around him and his inability or inaction to curb it, perhaps he wasn’t quite as wise as his writings make him out to be.

Yes, as was Solomon wise. God says he gave Solomon more wisdom than any other. Yet Solomon writes in Ecclesiastes that he denied himself no sinful pleasure. One might logically say he was wise enough to know what was wrong but foolish enough to do it!

So it seems in both cases those who had wisdom–from God or some other source–ignored what they knew. If they truly were wise, then wisdom must be what one thinks, but not what one says or does.

So what of love? Is it what one thinks, but not what one says or does? Is it an emotion, not an action?

 

[spockrates]

I agree. Love in action and wisdom in action. I would add that sometimes it is not wise to act. There is a time and place to act. Further, love in action can take several forms. Sometimes discipline or even reprimand can be a form of love.

Metzer: Yes, sounds logical to me. Then again, I’m reminded of something Socrates once said:

I have long been wondering at my own wisdom ; I cannot trust myself. And I think that I ought to stop and ask myself What am I saying ? for there is nothing worse than self-deception — when the deceiver is always at home and always with you — it is quite terrible!

(Cratylus)

For I now have cause to wonder if what I believe about love and wisdom each being an act is true. Let me explain why: It seems to me that love is not wisdom and wisdom is not love. For a loving act can sometimes be unwise, and a wise act can sometimes be unloving.

One act can also sometimes be both loving and wise. But if love and wisdom are actions, then one act can either be loving or wise, but never both. For if it were both, then wisdom would be love! But can such an idea be wise?

 

[spockrates]

ALL:

Once more, I want to thank everyone who participated in the Socratic dialogue, or my amateurish attempt at one. I appreciate every attempt to answer the questions, whether it was one reply, or many. Dudes! Your the best.

 

[Vico]

I’m posting this here in hope of getting a range of opinions. Also it’s a topic I think that people of all religions can discuss thoughtfully without any need for debate. From a biblical point of view, it appears wisdom might be greater. For Paul writes this:
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)But the writer of Proverbs asserts this:
13 Blessed are those who find wisdom,
those who gain understanding,
14 for she is more profitable than silver
and yields better returns than gold.
15 She is more precious than rubies;
nothing you desire can compare with her.

(Proverbs 3)Since nothing we desire compares to Wisdom, doesn’t that mean Love cannot hold a candle to her?

Modern Catholic Dictionary states that the element of love is built into wisdom, the highest gifts of the Holy Spirit.
GIFT OF WISDOM
The first and highest gifts of the Holy Spirit. It makes the soul responsive to God in the contemplation of divine things. Where faith is a simple knowledge of the articles of Christian belief, wisdom goes on to a certain divine penetration of the truths themselves. Built into wisdom is the element of love, which inspires contemplative reflection on these divine mysteries, rejoices dwelling on them, and directs the mind to judge all things according to their principles.

 

[TypesAndShadows]

Job 28

“Surely there is a mine for silver,
and a place for gold which they refine.
2 Iron is taken out of the earth,
and copper is smelted from the ore.
3 Men put an end to darkness,
and search out to the farthest bound
the ore in gloom and deep darkness.
4 They open shafts in a valley away from where men live;
they are forgotten by travelers,
they hang afar from men, they swing to and fro.
5 As for the earth, out of it comes bread;
but underneath it is turned up as by fire.
6 Its stones are the place of sapphires,
and it has dust of gold.

7 “That path no bird of prey knows,
and the falcon’s eye has not seen it.
8 The proud beasts have not trodden it;
the lion has not passed over it.

9 “Man puts his hand to the flinty rock,
and overturns mountains by the roots.
10 He cuts out channels in the rocks,
and his eye sees every precious thing.
11 He binds up the streams so that they do not trickle,
and the thing that is hid he brings forth to light.

12 “But where shall wisdom be found?
And where is the place of understanding?
13 Man does not know the way to it,
and it is not found in the land of the living.
14 The deep says, ‘It is not in me,’
and the sea says, ‘It is not with me.’
15 It cannot be gotten for gold,
and silver cannot be weighed as its price.
16 It cannot be valued in the gold of Ophir,
in precious onyx or sapphire.
17 Gold and glass cannot equal it,
nor can it be exchanged for jewels of fine gold.
18 No mention shall be made of coral or of crystal;
the price of wisdom is above pearls.
19 The topaz of Ethiopia cannot compare with it,
nor can it be valued in pure gold.

20 “Whence then comes wisdom?
And where is the place of understanding?
21 It is hid from the eyes of all living,
and concealed from the birds of the air.
22 Abaddon and Death say,
‘We have heard a rumor of it with our ears.’

23 “God understands the way to it,
and he knows its place.
24 For he looks to the ends of the earth,
and sees everything under the heavens.
25 When he gave to the wind its weight,
and meted out the waters by measure;
26 when he made a decree for the rain,
and a way for the lightning of the thunder;
27 then he saw it and declared it;
he established it, and searched it out.
28 And he said to man,
‘Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom;
and to depart from evil is understanding.’”

RSVCE

One of my favourite passages. We see that this passage represents fear of the Lord and following his ways, departing from evil, as being true wisdom and understanding. It seems like love fits into this, should be threaded through this, but I cannot clearly articulate how.

 

[spockrates]

Modern Catholic Dictionary states that the element of love is built into wisdom, the highest gifts of the Holy Spirit.
GIFT OF WISDOM
The first and highest gifts of the Holy Spirit. It makes the soul responsive to God in the contemplation of divine things. Where faith is a simple knowledge of the articles of Christian belief, wisdom goes on to a certain divine penetration of the truths themselves. Built into wisdom is the element of love, which inspires contemplative reflection on these divine mysteries, rejoices dwelling on them, and directs the mind to judge all things according to their principles.

Vico:

Thank you. I notice that the Catholic dictionary does not say love is wisdom, but encourages one to seek wisdom. One might say:

1. 
   *]Love inspires contemplative reflection, but wisdom is contemplative reflection.
   *]Love rejoices in dwelling on them, but wisdom does dwell on them.
   *]Love directs the mind to judge all things wisely, but wisdom does judge all things wisely.
   
   Would you say, then that love loves the truth, but only wisdom can discover the truth? I mean, if I want to want to know the truth, love is what I need. But to actually know the truth, wisdom is what I need, I think. What do you think?

 

[spockrates]

Job 28

RSVCE

One of my favourite passages. We see that this passage represents fear of the Lord and following his ways, departing from evil, as being true wisdom and understanding. It seems like love fits into this, should be threaded through this, but I cannot clearly articulate how.

Shadows:

Thanks. One point of Job, I think is to show people are fallible in their wisdom. Jobs friends all think they know why God allows good men like him suffer, but they get it wrong. In the chapter you cite, job tries to answer the question. It’s difficult to know how much he knows is truth and how much he knows shows he doesn’t fully grasp the truth. The truth and nothing but is not revealed until near the end when God himself speaks.

I suppose that if the Catholic dictionary cited by Vico is correct, then love relates to wisdom by encouraging one to obtain wisdom, and wisdom seems to be the ability to obtain truth, but something other than wisdom actually obeys the truth.

At least, that’s what love have me the desire to know and what wisdom enabled me to know. But whether my wisdom has failed me or not, I don’t know.

 

[petra22]

Job 28

RSVCE

One of my favourite passages. We see that this passage represents fear of the Lord and following his ways, departing from evil, as being true wisdom and understanding. It seems like love fits into this, should be threaded through this, but I cannot clearly articulate how.

I loved that passage! Thanks!